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TF-X Turkish Fighter & Trainer Aircraft Projects

The problem of TFX is actually the engine. Until now the engine is not fixed yet. This is crucial since the final and detail design depends on the engine dimension and weight. Looking to the KFX program, they have decided which engine to power KFX first before working on final design and then after final design is finalized they then move to detail design starting at June 2018.

Using Turkish own engine is very ambitious but if Turkey want to do this way they have to sacrifice further. What I mean sacrifice is that to delay TFX program until the indegenous engine program is finished. It can be a long journey since even Turkish SOM missile is still using foreign turbojet until now.
 
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I read the whole article again. I missed the end of it where it said that making a 5th gen fighter is "more than just building a stealth shape"...The only thing we will struggle with is the engine and the effects of corruption. But when it comes to all the other things like radar, electro optics, targeting systems and other components we are definitely somewhere in the top 10.



Pardon to contradict or to agree in only one point: "The only thing we will struggle with is the engine ...", but exactly this is the point: No engine means no TFX and to think an indigenous one can be built alone in the given time frame is naive and to think GE or RR will simply sell its crown jewels aka full ToT only for a few $$ and as such make their own research and investments irrelevant is plain dumb.
 
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Pardon to contradict or to agree in only one point: "The only thing we will struggle with is the engine ...", but exactly this is the point: No engine means no TFX and to think an indigenous one can be built alone in the given time frame is naive and to think GE or RR will simply sell its crown jewels aka full ToT only for a few $$ and as such make their own research and investments irrelevant is plain dumb.
Either Turkey will prove itself a revolutionary, or a really Big Mouth.

No offense to Turkish brothers here. And the reason is simple, Erdogan kicked USA on nose by saying that they can manage themselves. Now, if Turkey really manages to make a competent engine (i pray for this), it would be revolutionary for a country like Turkey, otherwise, Big Talks, No actions.

Although, in other segments, such as avionics, they will definitely shine in near future, even TFX design and aerodynamics can be done independently, but engine is a real test for Turkey.
 
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no one will give full TOT in my eyes a licenced version would be enough.. IF we begin also to build our own engines..

a licenced engine also means no selling to other countries without approval..

but I am ok with that as long as we get our jet and as long as no idiotic choices are made..

like in altay.. idiotism in its highest form.. if you decide to build a tank, if you have various land vehicles, if you want to sell them than what is the point of not to start an engine program? if they would have started in 2008 than now we would be much more near our goals.. I also would say we have various motors in turkey why not disassamble some and try to learn from it? if its a little bit worser than the original than let it be so.. we have massivly improved in metallurgy and so on all this could benefit it and also there is enough time to improve and build new ones.. all this is better than nothing..

I also would say if we could copy F16 (idiots did not start in the 90ties) engine it would be also enough for us (I dont like copies but there must be a starting point we cant start with f5 engine)
 
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I should explain some things
Firstly ahval is feto newspaper they want to be seen as anti government “objective journalists” but there is anti turkish mentality in each article even greek newspapers aren’t bitching so much about turks

Yeah actually you're right. Sabah can be okay. Sometimes they post things that no other sites post such as the Kurgan found in Erzurum. But their opinion pieces are of course very biased.

The only good thing about Avhal is that it is one of the only news websites that are focused on Turkey, in English and not pro-gov. Some of their stuff is fine as long as it's not an opinion piece.
Sahah, Sozcu, Cumhuriyet, Yeni Safak, among others. They are all bad and terrible at journalism (if it can be called that). I would actually go as far as to say they are part of the problem. They cause mistrust among our people by implying or straight up accusing the other side of the political spectrum with all kinds of conjecture and speculation. Personally I consider them to be a source for fitnah in our country, because it prays on the cognitive dissonance and biases of people and only contributes to people living inside their own bubble and rejecting any differing opinion as fake news. Making people distrust each other even more and making the problem of polarization even bigger.

I am sure everyone has witnessed this a lot of times that someone says something like: 'I don't understand at all why people would vote party A or party B'. Or go even further by insulting them by saying koyun, yobaz, hain and other insults (you see this in this forum as well). This is the product (manipulation) of the reporting of these types of newspapers and media outlets.

If they are anti- or pro-anything than that means they are not to be trusted and are about misleading its readers. The only ones that can be trusted in Turkey are those that are genuinely trying to be objective. News channels like CNN Turk, Haberturk, NTV, Haberglobal among others are trying to be objective by inviting people from various spectrums to their discussion programs. They also refrain mostly from using manipulative language when reporting the news. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that these are unbiased media outlets, but they are at least giving an effort to be objective. But even then, everything they say need to be fact checked.

Ahval news and outlets like that are way worse in that their sole mission is about misleading and don't deserve any attention. These are probably intelligence agency sponsored organisations with particular goals. There are even twitter accounts like this.

This is the same in the US as well (CNN vs FOX). You see this all over the world, it is just not just unique to Turkey.
The sad thing is, there are only a handful of journalists in the world that actually deserve the title of 'journalist'. Everyone else is just a cog in the propaganda machine. Look up 'manufacturing consent' if you guys wish to learn more about this. All this just goes to show they do not have our best interest in mind. It's actually our responsibility to fact check everything we read.

How can we identify actual objective journalists? Those that write according to the object at hand. If they appear to be at one end of the political spectrum on a certain topic, but appears to be at the other end of the political spectrum on a different topic, then you can tell he is objective and not lead by a political ideology.
 
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Sahah, Sozcu, Cumhuriyet, Yeni Safak, among others. They are all bad and terrible at journalism (if it can be called that). I would actually go as far as to say they are part of the problem. They cause mistrust among our people by implying or straight up accusing the other side of the political spectrum with all kinds of conjecture and speculation. Personally I consider them to be a source for fitnah in our country, because it prays on the cognitive dissonance and biases of people and only contributes to people living inside their own bubble and rejecting any differing opinion as fake news. Making people distrust each other even more and making the problem of polarization even bigger.

I am sure everyone has witnessed this a lot of times that someone says something like: 'I don't understand at all why people would vote party A or party B'. Or go even further by insulting them by saying koyun, yobaz, hain and other insults (you see this in this forum as well). This is the product (manipulation) of the reporting of these types of newspapers and media outlets.

If they are anti- or pro-anything than that means they are not to be trusted and are about misleading its readers. The only ones that can be trusted in Turkey are those that are genuinely trying to be objective. News channels like CNN Turk, Haberturk, NTV, Haberglobal among others are trying to be objective by inviting people from various spectrums to their discussion programs. They also refrain mostly from using manipulative language when reporting the news. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that these are unbiased media outlets, but they are at least giving an effort to be objective. But even then, everything they say need to be fact checked.

Ahval news and outlets like that are way worse in that their sole mission is about misleading and don't deserve any attention. These are probably intelligence agency sponsored organisations with particular goals. There are even twitter accounts like this.

This is the same in the US as well (CNN vs FOX). You see this all over the world, it is just not just unique to Turkey.
The sad thing is, there are only a handful of journalists in the world that actually deserve the title of 'journalist'. Everyone else is just a cog in the propaganda machine. Look up 'manufacturing consent' if you guys wish to learn more about this. All this just goes to show they do not have our best interest in mind. It's actually our responsibility to fact check everything we read.

How can we identify actual objective journalists? Those that write according to the object at hand. If they appear to be at one end of the political spectrum on a certain topic, but appears to be at the other end of the political spectrum on a different topic, then you can tell he is objective and not lead by a political ideology.

Yeah I agree with most of what you said. But when it comes to TV channels in Turkey they are all pro-gov. All are owned or get paid by Erdoğan and his allies. Only Halk TV and Tele1 aren't linked to the government, and to be honest that's just sad. Everyday millions of Turks are spoonfed propaganda by the pro-government channels. I remember when the last elections happened they wouldn't show the opposition speeches and instead just show AKP speeches along with Erdoğan saying "eyy Amerika".
 
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I treat ahval and other arab news as toilet paper.

If anybody believes Arab News and their bullshit outlets have been fooled pretty much in their lives.

Arabs are well known for spreading fake news and believing it too.
 
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The problem of TFX is actually the engine. Until now the engine is not fixed yet. This is crucial since the final and detail design depends on the engine dimension and weight. Looking to the KFX program, they have decided which engine to power KFX first before working on final design and then after final design is finalized they then move to detail design starting at June 2018.

Using Turkish own engine is very ambitious but if Turkey want to do this way they have to sacrifice further. What I mean sacrifice is that to delay TFX program until the indegenous engine program is finished. It can be a long journey since even Turkish SOM missile is still using foreign turbojet until now.
If Turkey is waiting for their indigenous engine development to proceed in TFX ,then they are making the same mistake that we did with LCA.
The main reason for LCA delay was Engine development. Finally we had to separate Engine development from the main program.
As per wiki TFX is using GE F110 engine aka F16s. Turkey builts such engines under license. But i think the US hasnt allowed any usage of their F16 engine in any other aircraft.
If Turkey has been allowed , then they have got a very good engine i feel
 
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If Turkey is waiting for their indigenous engine development to proceed in TFX ,then they are making the same mistake that we did with LCA.
The main reason for LCA delay was Engine development. Finally we had to separate Engine development from the main program.
As per wiki TFX is using GE F110 engine aka F16s. Turkey builts such engines under license. But i think the US hasnt allowed any usage of their F16 engine in any other aircraft.
If Turkey has been allowed , then they have got a very good engine i feel
F110 will be used in prototypes to carry out tests until the indigenous engine is ready. Serial production models will use Turkish engine.
 
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F110 will be used in prototypes to carry out tests until the indigenous engine is ready. Serial production models will use Turkish engine.


Big words, but are they possible?
As for the F110: is there an agreement or have the USA allowed to use is?

And for the oen engine, how could you be so sure, when there's no real possibility to reach this within the given timeframe and even less, when no Western company is providing ToT? ... therefore these post including "it will" ore on the same level like Indian claims, the Tejas Mk 2 "will" be using a Kaveri. Big words, nothing more.
 
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TF-X engine plans are the same as that of AMCA. Prototypes/early batch powered by a legacy engine (F414 for AMCA), followed by a "jointly developed" engine. The same companies are trying to get the deal.
 
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They already ordered dozen f110 engine for the prototyps with out problem.
 
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If Turkey is waiting for their indigenous engine development to proceed in TFX ,then they are making the same mistake that we did with LCA.
The main reason for LCA delay was Engine development. Finally we had to separate Engine development from the main program.
As per wiki TFX is using GE F110 engine aka F16s. Turkey builts such engines under license. But i think the US hasnt allowed any usage of their F16 engine in any other aircraft.
If Turkey has been allowed , then they have got a very good engine i feel

GE F110 under license is actually not really build up the engine in Turkey 100 %. If Turkey really build GE F 110 engine 100 % there will be no issue for Turkey to build turbojet/turbofan engine for TFX program.

The thing that should be fixed is actually the company who will develop the engine. IMO It should be Kale who will develop the engine if the are successful to build engine for SOM missile. Just like how F 5 engine was developed that originally comes from cruise missile engine.

As for me, it is better for Turkey to wait on TFX and focus more on Hurjet for the mean time as Hurjet is actually the first jet design made by TEI and it hasn't flown yet. Working simultaneously in 2 projects IMO is not healthy. Experience taken in Hurjet then can be used in developing TFX.

In general Turkish defense program are many and most of them are quite successful so it should not be ashamed if TFX program get delayed for some time while waiting for domestic turbofan development to mature. Even Chinese still encounter problem in engine development which is why J 31 is still not yet inducted.
 
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GE F110 under license is actually not really build up the engine in Turkey 100 %. If Turkey really build GE F 110 engine 100 % there will be no issue for Turkey to build turbojet/turbofan engine for TFX program.

The thing that should be fixed is actually the company who will develop the engine. IMO It should be Kale who will develop the engine if the are successful to build engine for SOM missile. Just like how F 5 engine was developed that originally comes from cruise missile engine.

As for me, it is better for Turkey to wait on TFX and focus more on Hurjet for the mean time as Hurjet is actually the first jet design made by TEI and it hasn't flown yet. Working simultaneously in 2 projects IMO is not healthy. Experience taken in Hurjet then can be used in developing TFX.

In general Turkish defense program are many and most of them are quite successful so it should not be ashamed if TFX program get delayed for some time while waiting for domestic turbofan development to mature. Even Chinese still encounter problem in engine development which is why J 31 is still not yet inducted.

The company that charged to develop TFX engine is TR MOTOR not Kale. Turkey has a product that will power a helicopter called TEI TS1400. It is a modern, state of the art engine. It may be small in size but technologically it is same thing with a modern turbofan. If Turkey wants to copy F110 engine(against international agreements) he can do that. Technically there is no problem anymore.
 
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As you can see Turkey is negotiating with Rolls Royce and General Electric at the same time also they are floating proaganda about possible russian cooperation
This approach is very good if you ask me
i think even if first batch of TF-X is made with 4.5th engine generation it’s not bad thing
In 2030s only US will have 80% 5th generation fighter and 20% 4.5 4th generation fighter jets of their fleet
So it’s not a big deal if by 2032 TF-X flies with 4.5th gen engine i know that sooner or later TF-X will reach the level of F-35/F-22/SU-57
 
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