TF-X Turkish Fighter & Trainer Aircraft Projects

[cabatli_53]

What a lame argument, since I do surely not. But it seems as if some in the Turkish government, society and also here always simply see "red" when something negative is written and often enough the arguments are not discussed but simply turned down with arguments "that is anti-government, this is from Gulen". So for you each argument against the TFX is proof for the "Sun is always red only"!

Anyway, regardless who said or analysed that the timeline is unrealistic and the overall prospects for the TFX are slim at best, physics, engineering and so on do not care about your biased opinion. They depend on facts, even if you don't like them.

And I promise You, Justin Bronk from RUSI who made this assessment is surely not connected to Gulen.

I don’t think timeline is unrealistic. The MMU is inside preliminary design phase to be completed in 2021 but You ask aome solid progress. In this phase, Do not expect much thing out of infrastructure investment, needed tool acquisitions and some design activity news. When It passes into CDR and prototype production phase, You will see many solid advances regarding program.

• Engineering development and preliminary design phase

Cost:1,3 billion $
Schedule:4/5 years
Completion: 2021

• Critical design review and Prototype production/Qualification phase

Cost: 7,3 billion $
Schedule: 8 years
Completion: 2029

In this phase:
7 TF-X prototypes will be produced
Roll-out ceremony for first TF-X MMU in 2023.
First flight is expected to be done in 2024/2025

• Serial production phase

Commencement: 2029/2030
Cost: 14 billion $

 

[Deino]

Because I want to make decent argument, I asked a serious and geniune question because of a claim/quotation you made. Instead of sharing sources you are keep making new claims. That is not how to make civil discussion.

Then I apologise but it does not make my argument invalid; most likely there is nothing more concrete to report on.

I don’t think timeline is unrealistic. The MMU is inside preliminary design phase to be completed in 2021 but You ask aome solid progress. In this phase, Do not expect much thing out of infrastructure investment, needed tool acquisitions and some design activity news. When It passes into CDR and prototype production phase, You will see many solid advances regarding program.

• Engineering development and preliminary design phase

Cost:1,3 billion $
Schedule:4/5 years
Completion: 2021

• Critical design review and Prototype production/Qualification phase

Cost: 7,3 billion $
Schedule: 8 years
Completion: 2029

In this phase:
7 TF-X prototypes will be produced
Roll-out ceremony for first TF-X MMU in 2023.
First flight is expected to be done in 2024/2025

• Serial production phase

Commencement: 2029/2030
Cost: 14 billion $

Thanks a lot for this reply, but again I'm most critical in regard to this IMO unrealistic timeline ... as such, only time will tell who's wrong.

 

[Bismarck]

I don’t think timeline is unrealistic. The MMU is inside preliminary design phase to be completed in 2021 but You ask aome solid progress. In this phase, Do not expect much thing out of infrastructure investment, needed tool acquisitions and some design activity news. When It passes into CDR and prototype production phase, You will see many solid advances regarding program.

• Engineering development and preliminary design phase

Cost:1,3 billion $
Schedule:4/5 years
Completion: 2021

• Critical design review and Prototype production/Qualification phase

Cost: 7,3 billion $
Schedule: 8 years
Completion: 2029

In this phase:
7 TF-X prototypes will be produced
Roll-out ceremony for first TF-X MMU in 2023.
First flight is expected to be done in 2024/2025

• Serial production phase

Commencement: 2029/2030
Cost: 14 billion $

All these progress are depend on money and economic growth in Turkey.

Two more points. TF-X project starts in 2009 and serial production is expected in 2030. 21 years later. I dont know, is that fast or to optimistic. Second point is, Turkeys ambitious for Industry 4.0 and 5G Network, which CAN boost the project, too.

 

[cabatli_53]

TF-X lightening test facility

https://twitter.com/x/status/1231917656980238336

 

[neosinan]

most likely there is nothing more concrete to report on.

- CAD, PLM, CFD chosen and purchased among other softwares.

- mainframe computer is bought, Design office buildings are almost completed. New Wind tunnel is under construction.

- Over a thousand engineer is hired, along side 200 British consultant.

- A mock up is build and compare to Both Franco-German and British project it was showing much more mature project.

- Number of sub system project is signed and started. Aesa radar a2a missiles etc.

Personally I also don't believe time schedule is realistic too but these happened in the last three years which I can remember on top of my head, So it isn't fair to say
there is nothing more concrete to report on.

 

[Deino]

- CAD, PLM, CFD chosen and purchased among other softwares.
...
Personally I also don't believe time schedule is realistic too but these happened in the last three years which I can remember on top of my head, So it isn't fair to say
there is nothing more concrete to report on.

As teacher I add my replies right into your text:

- mainframe computer is bought, Design office buildings are almost completed. New Wind tunnel is under construction.
- Over a thousand engineer is hired, along side 200 British consultant.

= irrelevant as real progress, when you plan a prototype already flying in three years.

- A mock up is build and compare to Both Franco-German and British project it was showing much more mature project.

= also irrelevant if you look on how many Indian mock ups have been built; models for air shows do not count. And for the Both Franco-German and British project both have very different timeframes. If those are more realistic however is yet another question.

- Number of sub system project is signed and started. Aesa radar a2a missiles etc.

= also more or less standard anyone would deem necessary given the projected timeline, however barely worth a report.

Anyway, my point is, design hasn't been finalized - you say yourself, wind tunnel construction has just started ! - but it should have in case you want to meet the timeline.
Sorry to say so, the TFX is late ...

 

[CAN_TR]

Own testing facilities are under construction.
TAI is building a huge composite material plant and also hires more engineers.

Time will tell...

 

[cabatli_53]

TAI Wind tunnel center (It is said to be one of the most advanced wind tunnel of the World)

Operational:2022
Cost: 1,5 billion TL
Place: Ankara

Facility contains following capabilities;

• Big Subsonic Wind Tunnel
• Trisonic Wind Tunnel (Up to 5 Mach)

TF-X MMU R&D, Analyse and Test Building

• 3000 Aerospace engineers will work there.
• TF-X MMU will be shaped in this facility
• Super computers with 10.000 core each will serve in this facility.
• It will be operational in 2021.

TAI Composite Production Facility (Fourth biggest in World)

• This facility will meet %2 of World composite production
• 95000m2
• TF-X MMU fuselage composites will be supplied from there
• Industry 4.0 fully otonom production processes
• It will be operational in 2021

TAI-Tübitak Near field RCS test & analyse facility & TAI-Far field RCS test facility

• The facility will analyse/test critical RCS figures of aircrafts up to 25m length.
• According to information, There are 4 facilities that is in same level with the TAI’s RCS facility.
• RCS info has to be kept secret so this facility has serious importance to protect the key features of TF-X.
• It will be operational in 2021.

TAI Fully Anechoic Chamber facility

• Totally enclosed test facility
• EMI/EMC tests

*image symbolic

TAI Lightening test facility

• Up to million Volt electricity will be able to given to platforms
• Hizal institute is charged to develop system
• Drones, helicopters and other fixed wing platforms will be tested there

 

[cabatli_53]

• Increased air to air engagement ranges with novel weapons
• Precise and accurate weapon firing from internal bays at supersonic speeds
• Augmented lethality with support of artificial intelligence and neuron networks
• 5+ Generation Air to air and air to surface multi-role fighter

 

[IblinI]

I don’t think timeline is unrealistic. The MMU is inside preliminary design phase to be completed in 2021 but You ask aome solid progress. In this phase, Do not expect much thing out of infrastructure investment, needed tool acquisitions and some design activity news. When It passes into CDR and prototype production phase, You will see many solid advances regarding program.

• Engineering development and preliminary design phase

Cost:1,3 billion $
Schedule:4/5 years
Completion: 2021

• Critical design review and Prototype production/Qualification phase

Cost: 7,3 billion $
Schedule: 8 years
Completion: 2029

In this phase:
7 TF-X prototypes will be produced
Roll-out ceremony for first TF-X MMU in 2023.
First flight is expected to be done in 2024/2025

• Serial production phase

Commencement: 2029/2030
Cost: 14 billion $

Russian's SU-57 had its first flight in 2010 and after all 10 years, the airforce is still waiting for their first jet.
TFX first flight is expected in 2024/2025 and commence after barely 5 years?

 

[Borg]

Russian's SU-57 had its first flight in 2010 and after all 10 years, the airforce is still waiting for their first jet.
TFX first flight is expected in 2024/2025 and commence after barely 5 years?

Chengdu J-20 had it's first flight at 11. January 2011 and it was handovered to military at 9. March 2017 so why do you think other shuldn't be able to do it similarly and why do you think Russians are a valid reference? Why don't you just wait and see what'll happen.

 

[azyr]

Russian's SU-57 had its first flight in 2010 and after all 10 years, the airforce is still waiting for their first jet.
TFX first flight is expected in 2024/2025 and commence after barely 5 years?

SU-57 was / is an experimental technology update, what Turkey is trying to do is catch-up with other players on the field. So the road is already trodden and the path is obvious, hence the lower turn over rate expectancy.

Then again Turkey is new to creating a project from scratch although we have vast amounts of engineering experience in different aviation fields.

Planning and executing is different beast then plain manufacturing and R&D.

We'll see I suppose.

 

[SİLAHDAR]

Just a question ; Just a Refit a F-16 body to stealth body very hard than makeing a 5 th gen fighter from zero ?

That isnt be like F-35 stealth level. İf we reduce rcs of f-16 less than 100 km detectable , we have 100+ km ranged aim-120c-7 and kgk series, som etc. we can make fire and forget when undetectable.

we can make him underwing shaped little internal weaponbays like that ;

And also we can paint him ram and make a fix for reduce engine iir sight. Already we are producing mid section of f-35. We can resize f-35 design or our single engined tfx design.

With stealth body and Özgür project avionics suit it would be very great stop gap fighter for us.

Even İran can change designs a Fighters and fly with him we can make a good prototype. Ok F-15 Silent Eagle wasnt be a good project but his due for his price when compared f-35 and base f-15 already have more rcs than F-16

Other Design options for f-16

 

[Indos]

Just a question ; Just a Refit a F-16 body to stealth body very hard than makeing a 5 th gen fighter from zero ?

That isnt be like F-35 stealth level. İf we reduce rcs of f-16 less than 100 km detectable , we have 100+ km ranged aim-120c-7 and kgk series, som etc. we can make fire and forget when undetectable.

we can make him underwing shaped little internal weaponbays like that ;

And also we can paint him ram and make a fix for reduce engine iir sight. Already we are producing mid section of f-35. We can resize f-35 design or our single engined tfx design.

With stealth body and Özgür project avionics suit it would be very great stop gap fighter for us.

Even İran can change designs a Fighters and fly with him we can make a good prototype. Ok F-15 Silent Eagle wasnt be a good project but his due for his price when compared f-35 and base f-15 already have more rcs than F-16

Other Design options for f-16

Making stealthy single engine plane based on F 16 air frame has been proposed by KAI (South Korean) in KFX/IFX program but later rejected by ADD (SK agency), SK Air Force, and Indonesian who prefered double engine one.

I dont know what is their consideration to reject the idea from KAI but maybe it is related to T/W ratio and super cruise ability and double engine plane also give more space for internal weapon bay.

Stealthy F16 design has also been proposed because the cost development will be much less and also in term of per unit since it only use one engine.

 

[xbat]

stealth F16 is F35. Making body stealth is not enough, you have to embed all sensors and weapons inside fuselage. that is F35