T-LORAMIDS Tender | Updates & Discussion

[T-123456]

Turkey is a secular state :/

But I do like to see KSA developing stronger ties with the PRC.

So,we are not muslim?

Bro you can be Muslim and secular at the same time. By far most Turks are Muslims.

Thats exactly what most people dont get.

 

[Sinnerman108]

Turkey is a secular state :/

But I do like to see KSA developing stronger ties with the PRC.

Please explain, how will this happen.

 

[Yzd Khalifa]

So,we are not muslim?


Thats exactly what most people dont get.

Nobody understand what I ssid better than u

 

[kalu_miah]

Indeed bro. China also has ancient ties with Islam, Muslims and the Middle East and other Muslim areas. I for instance know that Arabs and other Semitic people and Chinese people traded with each other and came into contact well before the appearance of Islam.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Arab_relations

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Islam_in_China

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_China

‫

http://www.defence.pk/forums/middle-east-africa/258449-chinese-arab-people.html

Also China is a world power and although there is already cultural, economic, military, political etc. ties we need to expand them way more to counter Western influence which is not always good for the region.

I have always had a soft spot for China and wish to see much bigger cooperation on all fields that can benefit both parties.

China already has a significant presence in South East Asia (Indonesia, Malaysia etc.) and those states are Muslim and Indonesia is even the most populous Muslim country. China has never had problems with Muslim states even when they were ruled by conservative communists.

Pakistan already has excellent relations with China. They showed the light.

As you may have noticed, lately I had a change in my future strategic out look. I used to hold some hope for Japan and S. Korea, but with Shinzo Abe's recent move to forge closer defense and strategic ties with India, I have lost that hope. And South Korea always follow Japan.

So, my current thinking is that it is going to be a Sino-Muslim alliance (total about 3 billion people). We should be loyal to the Chinese and Chinese also should be loyal to us in return. But we have to go step by step, as US/EU/Japan still control large part of world economy about 40 trillion out of 70 trillion. China and Muslim nations together is just 13 trillion.

So both Chinese and Muslims need to work together to increase our share of the economic pie. We can do that by bringing in Chinese as much as possible to replace US/EU/Japan/S. Korea. Currently China do not have high quality products, but in a few years they will be able to match anyone in almost any field, so we should get ready for that time.

Once we have a good alliance going with the Chinese, the next step would be to extend that joint economic and strategic influence to other nations in our neighborhood: South East Asia, Central Asia and Africa.

And Iran can never match the influence of combined weight of majority Sunni Muslim nations of the world. They will be in our group, as they have good relations with China, but they will not be able to affect our relations with China, as our weight is at least 12-15 times their weight, in terms of population and their future productive potential.

Economy and industry is the final battlefield, defense equipment is just a by product.

 

[BronzePlaque]

You guys forget about something..Right now, i dont know about HQ-9`s performance, but Turkey is experienced in working with China in defence sector, and the end result was satisfying for us

J-600T Y

Now, with thew help of China we can fully produce this missile at home and it has a good performance..Thats why Turkey ignored the pressure coming from Nato and chose Chinese system..

And for the whiners, you whine about Turkey being US puppet, and when Turkey chooses Chinese system over Us system, you started to whine Turkey would share the tech with Us like little girls...Go get some fresh air

 

[cabatli_53]

Plus Aster and other western systems ToT was marginal.It was more of a "Bolt on" western system on top of a Turkish system..
Western companies did not give the degree of ToT Turkey wanted..
For example GENESIS system was married to a Raytheon's Fire control system with Turks Manufacturing GENESIS and Raytheon manufacturing Fire control and bolting them together..thats not a ToT..

This ws mentioned in a Janes article

Correction ! Turkey never asked Raytheon to do a tech trasnfer for warship FCS. Genesis FCS is developed by Armerkom institute and transfered to Havelsan for industrialization. Genesis was firstly applied for USA Perry class frigates. To Upgrade an exported USA junk Even If It belongs to stoneage, It is required to do some cooperation/permission so (After technology developed), Havelsan made an agreement with USA manufacturer to upgrade their own platforms worldwide. Ok?

 

[ELTurco]

Its not attitude. Its basic logic sense.

First, Turkey is not impoverish country. Clearly money is not a big problem for them if they want to acquire a quality weapon. In fact, Turkey is the biggest military weapon buyer in NATO. I seriously doubt Turkey for sake of saving only 1billion dollars compromising its own defense by choosing an inferior product out of the 4. That will most likely eliminate cheap price tag reason.

Second, ToT transfer is not solely only by HQ-9 available to Turkish. ozi2000 article clearly indicates MDBA is willing to ToT if Turkish choose Aster 30 system for its long range air defense. This again eliminate another possibilities HQ-9 wins becos it is the only one willing to ToT.

Third, Turkish military probably want to acquire a lesser known weapon not acquire by its rival which possess both S-300 and Patriot so that it will be difficult to counter in times of war. But the Turkish still has a choice of getting MDBA Aster 30 or HQ-9 since no other countries hostile to Turkey acquire this weapon. Then they choose HQ-9 out of the two.

Fourth, why would Turkish military complicate themselves by choosing a non NATO weapon that will have a hard time intergrating into its existing military network mostly based on NATO wired system? They could have gone the easy route, getting Aster 30 and get everything wired with their NATO doctrine and system. But no, they didn't. Unless that weapon proves itself to be superior in their evaluation that impress the Turkish military high level so much that they are willing to accept the complication by acquiring a superior weapon that can sure protect Turkish airspace.

Final conclusion, HQ-9 is superior and has its merit which is why Turkey military decide to opt it.

I think main reason is that Turkey has some serious political issues with france and these fellows partly own the ASTER system thats why Turkey dont want ASTER.

 

[cabatli_53]

I think main reason is that Turkey has some serious political issues with france and these fellows partly own the ASTER system thats why Turkey dont want ASTER.

That's why It was Italy marketing Aster-30 to Turkey instead of France.

 

[al-Hasani]

yeah. %30-35 of Turkey's muslim population are practisers. Thank to "erdogan the magnificant", he'll bring seriat one day. He is a tall idiot...

Please elaborate? Are you saying that people are turning away from Islam overall (the way individual x and y practices it, his family, town, city, region etc.) or away from POLITICAL Islam that Erdogan is fond of?

Thats exactly what most people dont get.

Yeah, unfortunately, bro.

I will get back to you later Kalu_Miah.

 

[Yzd Khalifa]

Please explain, how will this happen.

Well,

The PRC, by definition, happens to be a special friend of Pakistan - our pillar friend and ally - Developing stronger mutual ties with the PRC is going to benefit both of KSA and Pakistan on whatever level you would think of, from trade to defense, to science and technology.

Here is an interesting article which briefs up how important China is to KSA these days.
China-Saudi Relations: Booming Trade

 

[S10]

China would be last preference. We should do business with opponents of China instead such as Japan, Russia, etc. Uighur are getting tortured and APK does business with them. Turkey should be more outspoken and should try to do economic business with new small emergig markets in southeast Asia to boycot China and be closer to (altaic) Japan for their tech and common culture. Japan could be our biggest friend.

Thanks for the money.

In the end the Turkish missile wil supperier then the Chinees i think. It wil be redesigned with Turkish configurations.

Turkey will build better missiles than the world's largest industrial power? Okay then.

 

[truthseeker2010]

any idea how many systems turkey is buying?

 

[cabatli_53]

any idea how many systems turkey is buying?

At the beggining of program, It was planned to produce 4+4+4 batteries but I don't know whether There are some changes applied or not...

 

[Safriz]

Correction ! Turkey never asked Raytheon to do a tech trasnfer for warship FCS. Genesis FCS is developed by Armerkom institute and transfered to Havelsan for industrialization. Genesis was firstly applied for USA Perry class frigates. To Upgrade an exported USA junk Even If It belongs to stoneage, It is required to do some cooperation/permission so (After technology developed), Havelsan made an agreement with USA manufacturer to upgrade their own platforms worldwide. Ok?

Ok Turkey may not have asked for ToT,but the RIM-156 BLOCK IV was to be controlled by Raytheon's fire control system,and that may have played a role in Turkey rejecting the missile as there is no news of that missile being integrated into Turkish navy as it was planned previously. That is the basis of my speculation that Turkey will build her own naval version of HQ-9 similar to Chinese HHQ-9.
The VLS will be simpler as no below deck flame diverting ramps will be needed.
Anyway the Janes Article i was referring to is this...Let me know if you can deduce anything further after reading this.

From Janes 2008

Under the G-Class Frigate CMS (combat management system Modernisation Programme (G-GCMP), the Turkish Naval Forces Command is implementing a comprehensive combat management, fire control and tactical datalink modernisation for its eight ex-USN FFG-7 frigates, now known locally as the G-class.

Central to this effort is the introduction of the GENESIS (Gemi Entegre Savas; Idare Sistemi) open architecture CMS, a system nurtured within the navy's own Software Development Centre in Golcuk then subsequently migrated to Havelsan for further development and production.

According to Havelsan, GENESIS modernises and expands the C2 functionality offered by the legacy FFG-7 tactical data handling system, while at the same time leveraging its original foundation to interface with ship's sensors, weapons and platform data. GENESIS has been developed by Havelsan, under the sponsorship of the navy and the Turkish Undersecretariat of Defence (SSM), as a 'common core' architecture to meet a range of ship- and shore-based requirements; other variants are being developed for the MILGEM corvette project and land-based command, control, communication, computer and intelligence (C4I) centres.
As part of the G-GCMP upgrade, the new GENESIS CMS is intended to significantly reduce anti-ship missile defence reaction time (and so increase the weapon engagement window), improve situational awareness and support tactical decision-making by exploiting modern COTS computers and network technology. Key features include automatic detection and tracking, automated reaction functionality, a multiilink capability and embedded onboard training software.

Legacy shortcomings

Havelsan points out that the legacy FFG-7 combat direction system suffers from a series of shortcomings including: an obsolete hardware design that comprises performance and reliability; limited track capacity (64 targets) as a result of the limited memory (386 kb) of the old AN/UYK-7 Weapon System Processor (WSP); manual tracking of air and surface targets, limiting the accuracy and number of tracks; an outdated, low-resolution human machine interface; manual decoy launching capability only; no integration of the Phalanx CIWS (operates in autonomous Mode only); and limitations in processing and communication result in slow detect-to-engage times. The company also points out that the legacy system has limited future growth capacity due to its central processor architecture.

GENESIS runs on a redundant Gigabit Ethernet LAN and interfaces with all weapon, sensor and platform systems through common subsystem interface units (SIU). A central interface unit replaces both weapon control consoles (WCCs) and is interfaced via an SIU to GENESIS, enabling all WCC functions to be performed by GENESIS consoles.
The WSP is replaced with an open and distributed architecture CMS that runs on modern COTS processors and workstations. While the Mk 92 Mod 2 fire-control system remains, the UYK-7 computer that was used as the WSP is reconfigured as a cold backup replacement of the Mk 92 WCP.

The GENESIS implementation on board the Gaziantep class sees the original Command Integration Capability equipment *****ped out, with all legacy OJ-197 and OJ-194 consoles removed together with the WCCs associated with the Mk 92 fire-control system. In their place, the GENESIS fit for G-GCMP introduces eight operator consoles with dual flat panel displays; two tactical consoles with side-by-side displays; and a large screen display. Additional features include integrated video distribution with multiple topside cameras, customised commanding officer and bridge displays, and digital data recording.

According to Havelsan, GENESIS is able to manage up to 1,000 tracks, and is able to perform automatic detection, tracking and correlation with multiple radars. As well as the SPS-49 radar, the system also integrates the Decca navigation radar, IFF (identification, friend-or-foe) and Phalanx CIWS. In the latter case, Phalanx can operate in either standalone or remote modes controlled by GENESIS, offering a capability to be used against air and surface targets at short range. Also, GENESIS enables Phalanx to engage a Mk 92 target.

Harpoon is integrated into GENESIS using a six-word direct interface. Background information can be supplied to the system automatically, reducing engagement planning time and improving accuracy.
Chaff/infrared decoy control functionality is embedded in GENESIS. This enables automatic threat identification, decoy launch and speed/course to steer recommendations to maximise effectiveness.

A new MilSOFT-developed Multi Purpose Tactical Datalink System (MP-TDLS) is also being implemented. MP-TDLS provides a seamless Link 11/16 capability, with potential future growth to Link 22.

The first GENESIS fit to TCG Gemlik was completed in mid-2007 and a further three ships have since received the system.

The remaining four FFG-7 frigates are due to receive GENESIS by the end of 2012. This quartet will also be retrofitted with ESSM, fired from a new Mk 41 vertical launcher. In February 2009, Lockheed Martin announced a Foreign Military Sales (FMS) award to upgrade the Mk 92 fire-control system on the G-class to support the introduction of ESSM. This marks the first FMS sale of the company's solid-state CWI transmitter.

Havelsan and Raytheon Integrated Defense Systems in 2009 signed a teaming agreement to co-operatively market worldwide, with a particular focus on FFG-7 retrofits. Jane's understands that GENESIS has already been demonstrated to the Egyptian and Pakistani navies.

 

[Safriz]

My statement about Raytheon FCC bolt on for Turkish GENESIS without any ToT is based on this article @cabatli_53 .
Let me know if i got it wrong

TEWKSBURY, Mass., and ANKARA, Turkey, April 28, 2009 /PRNewswire/ -- Raytheon Company's (NYSE: RTN) Integrated Defense Systems (IDS) and HAVELSAN Inc. have signed a teaming agreement to cooperatively market the GENESIS Ship Integrated Combat Management System for surface ships of navies worldwide.
GENESIS successfully completed at-sea testing and delivery of the first system in 2007. The second and third ships were tested and delivered in 2008. GENESIS was developed for integration, including development; hardware and software testing; training; and maintenance services onboard eight of the frigates that are part of the Turkish fleet.
Originally initiated and designed by the Turkish Naval Forces Command for the modernization of USS OLIVER HAZARD PERRY (FFG 7) class frigates, GENESIS has been upgraded and implemented by HAVELSAN. Raytheon provided fire control and electronic warfare system modifications.
"In the context of such projects, the most challenging phase is the first delivery. With the delivery of the third ship, GENESIS is a tested and proven solution," said Dr. Faruk A. Yarman, CEO of HAVELSAN.
"Today, the GENESIS-implemented frigates are preferred for critical missions, such as the participation of the TCG Giresun as part of an international joint task force fighting increasing piracy in the Gulf of Aden. With the GENESIS system -- originally developed by the Turkish Navy and transferred to HAVELSAN after the completion of successful sea trials -- FFG 7 class frigates around the world can significantly improve their combat intelligence and ability to take action to counter threats."
Raytheon IDS' Charles "Tom" Bush, vice president of Seapower Capability Systems, said:
"The GENESIS solution transforms the FFG 7 combat system, giving it outstanding capability to meet today's threats by improving sensor integration, information management, and by reducing reaction times -- all critical capabilities for a modern, front-line combatant. Together, the Raytheon-HAVELSAN team has provided a complete and affordable solution to modernize and optimize the effectiveness of these tough, multi-mission ships in service in allied fleets around the world."
The cooperation of HAVELSAN and Raytheon in the marketing and implementation of the GENESIS program targets the FFG 7 fleets around the world. The GENESIS system guarantees optimization and effectiveness in the naval combat management. The GENESIS system enhances the ships' situational awareness and accelerates the defense capabilities, decreasing the detect-to-engage reaction time by more than half.
HAVELSAN Inc., which is a Turkish Armed Forces Foundation company, is active in the fields of C4ISR (Command, Control, Communication, Computer, Intelligence, Surveillance, Reconnaissance Systems), Naval Combat Systems, Air Defence Systems, Management Information Systems, Simulation and Training Systems, Homeland Security Systems and Energy Management Systems. By internalizing a collaborative business model in the international standards with its worldwide offices and agencies, HAVELSAN is a high-tech company that has special experience and unique capabilities in the field of the design, development, manufacture, test and installation of defense systems both in and abroad, particularly in the naval combat systems.
Integrated Defense Systems is Raytheon's leader in Global Capabilities Integration providing affordable, integrated solutions to a broad international and domestic customer base, including the U.S. Missile Defense Agency, the U.S. Armed Forces and the Department of Homeland Security.
Raytheon Company (NYSE: RTN), with 2008 sales of $23.2 billion, is a technology and innovation leader specializing in defense, homeland security and other government markets throughout the world. With a history of innovation spanning 87 years, Raytheon provides state-of-the-art electronics, mission systems integration and other capabilities in the areas of sensing; effects; and command, control, communications and intelligence systems, as well as a broad range of mission support services. With headquarters in Waltham, Mass., Raytheon employs 73,000 people worldwide.
Contact:
Carolyn Beaudry
401.842.3550
SOURCE Raytheon Company


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