T-625 & Turkish Utility Helicopter Programs

[what]

Official

 

[Deino]

To me it looks like AW-101 Merlin, however specs-wise similar to NH90.

Indeed ... but again my already noted concern: How likely is it that all these - IMO countless - projects will come to a successful end?

Just look at the NH-90, the Tiger and so on. Both were developed by international consortiums with a much larger budget, with much more experience and now Turkey wants to develop such a type all on its own???

Don't get me wrong, but I'm very much sceptical.

Deino

 

[-------]

Indeed ... but again my already noted concern: How likely is it that all these - IMO countless - projects will come to a successful end?

Just look at the NH-90, the Tiger and so on. Both were developed by international consortiums with a much larger budget, with much more experience and now Turkey wants to develop such a type all on its own???

Don't get me wrong, but I'm very much sceptical.

Deino

Experience can be offset by bringing in foreign engineers or having subassemblies designed and developed by a foreign company which specialises in specific areas. T-625 and ATAK-II for instance will have a transmission developed by a foreign company to TAI specifications. TAI will have IP rights of the transmission and will be produced in Turkey ultimately. T-625 will have its landing gears and hydraulics produced by a foreign company also. There are certainly ways to get around it if the will is there. Nh-90 is also a mishmash of components from European companies, powered by British/French and US engines - so ultimately what's the difference Turkey outsourcing development of components ?
Budget, imo that's not an issue for development because everything in Turkey is far cheaper than in europe incl labor of skilled engineers. What will be the issue is follow through to setting up production lines.

Time will tell ultimately..

 

[Stimpy75]

@Deino
as mentioned earlier these european projects are in my regards mostly Arbeitsbeschaffungsmassnahmen......and zırtbırt changing desires and specifications the projects get costlier and takes longer and every nation has different demands...so again more dingdingding $$$$$$$
just look at esspecially NH90,not to mention A400,overpriced and overengineered....Tiger ? PFFFF!

 

[HannibalBarca]

Indeed ... but again my already noted concern: How likely is it that all these - IMO countless - projects will come to a successful end?

Just look at the NH-90, the Tiger and so on. Both were developed by international consortiums with a much larger budget, with much more experience and now Turkey wants to develop such a type all on its own???

Don't get me wrong, but I'm very much sceptical.

Deino

Well... the answer is in... 5-6 years... cya at that moment

 

[Mr.Department]

Indeed ... but again my already noted concern: How likely is it that all these - IMO countless - projects will come to a successful end?

Just look at the NH-90, the Tiger and so on. Both were developed by international consortiums with a much larger budget, with much more experience and now Turkey wants to develop such a type all on its own???

Don't get me wrong, but I'm very much sceptical.

Deino

On factual base you are always welcome. There are many sceptical Turkish persons in Twitter and Turkish Forums. I am simply otimistic and believe that Turkish Defense Industry will not grow linear but exponential. I believe not in 100% domestic production or 100% indigenious defense products in the next 15 years. All present Turkish defense products have their origin from abroad. There is no insisting from my side that T-625 is totally domestic. It is a derivative of a Lenoardo product. The main reason is that Turkey respects patents and tries to get licences for TOT, cause it is still a western country respecting rules and laws. Chinese are focusing on 100% copy and industrial espionage. They even can't build jet or helicopter engines by their own. ( Safran licence for Helo engines, Russian engines for jets).
But this all doesn't mean that Turkey will do a jump in the next decade(s) to 100% domestic defense products mainly in propulsion technology for LF,AF and Navy. That's the reason that Turkey puts two eggs into the basket not to sabotaged cause of political reasons.

 

[neosinan]

... There is no insisting from my side that T-625 is totally domestic. It is a derivative of a Lenoardo product. ...

If you are claiming this, you should have some proof. Looking alike isn't same as being derivative.

 

[Mr.Department]

If you are claiming this, you should have some proof. Looking alike isn't same as being derivative.

Come on brother be honest and rational.
I give you only sone examples PD-170 is Mercedes Benz commercial car licensed.
ATAK- Westland Augusta licensed.
Firtina - Korean Thunder licensed
MKEK guns licensed or HK copies.
..............?

 

[u.MP]

Come on brother be honest and rational.
I give you only sone examples PD-170 is Mercedes Benz commercial car licensed.
ATAK- Westland Augusta licensed.
Firtina - Korean Thunder licensed
MKEK guns licensed or HK copies.
..............?

You made the claim so you'll have to prove it.

 

[Mr.Department]

You made the claim so you'll have to prove it.

Nothing to prove.
Read international and national expert sources. That's reality.

 

[-------]

You made the claim so you'll have to prove it.

Ignore the attention seeking cyber-rat, move along

 

[MMM-E]

what a beauty T-625 Cockpit

 

[cabatli_53]

T-625 Specifications

 

[Beno]

Indeed ... but again my already noted concern: How likely is it that all these - IMO countless - projects will come to a successful end?

Don't get me wrong, but I'm very much sceptical.

Deino

I understand you being skeptical of wherever or not Turkey will be able to complete these defense projects but in all honesty they seem to have a pretty decent track record.

I'll list some defense projects from the recent years and show if they have been delayed or completed.

Umtas anti-tank missile - development first began in 2005 and deliveries started in 2016. - completed

T-155 self-propelled howitzer - development began in 1998 and production began in 2001. - completed

MILGEM corvette - development started 1996 and the building of the ships began in 2005 and the first ship entered service in 2011. - completed

Istanbul-class frigate - another part of the MILGEM project, the building Istanbul-class frigate started in 2017 and is expected to be completed in 2021. - working on it

TCG Andaul - production began in 2016 and is expected to be completed in 2021. - working on it

TFX stealth fighter - first prototype is expected to fly in 2023 but it will probably suffer delays because most of the team working on it were arrested after the Turkish coup. - working on it, will probably be delayed

T-129 attack helicopter - development began in 2007 and was first put to service in 2014. - completed

MPT-76 assault rifle - designed 2009 and production started 2014 - completed

Altay main battle tank - development began in 2008 and was supposed to enter service in 2016, is currently delayed. - delayed

Akkor APS - from my understanding development started in 2015 and is supposed to be completed by 2018. - working on it

SOM missile - development started 2006 and entered service 2012. - completed

Bayrakar TB2 armed drone - completed

TAI ANKA drone - development started in 2010, was supposed to be in service by 2012 but was delayed to 2013. - basic version is compled and the armed version is delayed from what I understand.

TAI Hurkus - development started in 2006 and was completed in 2016.

So most of their projects have either been completed or are on schedule, only really the Altay tank and the TAI Anka armed version have been delayed.

Just look at the NH-90, the Tiger and so on. Both were developed by international consortiums with a much larger budget, with much more experience and now Turkey wants to develop such a type all on its own???

Well Turkey's advantage is that it has been getting a lot of technology transfers through its various deals. First with AgustaWestland for the t-129 development and now also from the latest Sirkovsky deal for the black hawk and the utility helicopter deal.


“This MOU demonstrates Sikorsky’s long-term commitment to Turkey, as its fulfillment would include the transfer of important technology to build transmission systems for the International BLACK HAWK helicopter. Its signing recognizes Alp Aviation as a highly valuable and reliable component manufacturer to support Sikorsky’s offering for the Turkish Utility Helicopter Program and positions Alp to supply the International BLACK HAWK S-70i™ Program. This arrangement also helps in strengthening our position in Europe.”

http://www.defenceturkey.com/en/con...urkish-companies-by-sikorsky-369#.WjAG-FXibIU

To facilitate the development and integration of the IMAS, Sikorsky will transfer to ASELSAN a new S-70i helicopter to be utilized as the Prototype Turkish Utility Helicopter for the qualification of the new avionics system in 2019.

https://lockheedmartin.com/us/news/...program-to-build-T70-utility-helicopters.html


So even if they have a smaller budget they have a lot of the experience/technology needed already because of their previous projects.

 

[neosinan]

@Beno Armed version of Anka is also in service. Number of UAVs are shared in Anka / UAV topic recently.