Su-30MKI & JF-17 Air Fight

[hj786]

"Third Generation" and "Fourth Generation" are not just words. If you put some effort into researching the meanings of those terms you would realise that there are pretty much no third-gen aircrafts flying around anymore (ofcourse, there are exceptions like the Mig-21, F-4, Mirages etc). No country in their right mind would invest in third-generation fighters today. The guy who wrote this article is as reliable as any Indian journalist would be on these subjects. Seriously, dude, why make childish arguments? the JF-17 was, and is, a late-fourth generation fighter, nobody is talking about the F-22 here.

Also, the Chinese do have a different ranking system for aircraft, but that has nothing to do with the genius journalist above. My 8-year-old sister knows more about aviation than some of the journalists in India and Pakistan.

Funny thing is, they'll quote Pakistani media to make JF-17 look bad, but when Pakistani media says Babur and Raad cruise missiles are indigenous, Pakistan gave technical input to the JF-17 project, nuclear weapons were developed by Pakistani scientists, its just propoganda and everything is copied from China.

But I have to say you're wrong about JF-17 being a late-fourth generation combat jet, IMO its airframe simply is not yet advanced enough to warrant such a classification even if its avionics are. If the Chinese articles about JF-17 modifications are true though, it could end up becoming one. I read a translation somewhere of plans to make 70% of the airframe out of composite materials, for example.

so u will now claim that JF-17 will take on F-22, Typhoon, Mig 35 and Pak-FA. What a fan boy claims.

Not one single poster here has claimed anything like that. Get out of here and take your agenda with you, troll.

 

[hj786]

That's quite true. The only advantage you have with a very long range radar is that you know the presence of the other fighter plane but there is nothing you can do about it till it gets into your missile range, and most shots will be fired well within that range (40-60km range) to ensure a good enough kill ratio.

Moreover, the 200km+ range is for a fighter the size of Su-30 or Su-27 and not JF-17. For JF-17, it would be significantly lower. Also, with good enough sensors, the plane being tracked also gets to know of the presence of the other fighter and with AWACS, it won't matter much because everyone will be aware of everyone else.

I don't understand why they will happily talk about MKI's radar, but they refuse to mention the radar warning receiver of JF-17. They know all about missile ranges and radar ranges, but they seem to forget that as soon as MKI switches on its radar, the JF will know pretty much exactly where it is.
I read somewhere that the reason PAF has been looking at AESA radars such as Vixen 500E for JF-17 is because they have found that the modern slotted array radars such as the Grifo M3 in Mirage ROSE, KLJ-7 in JF, are very easy to detect on a radar warning receiver. AESA radars are not. A reason why AEWC and data-links are so important is that they do not require the actual combat aircraft to light up their radars and show every enemy jet where they are.

I guess it is inevitable that they will come back with "MKI will be upgraded with Russian AESA radars."

 

[satishkumarcsc]

Just one question...Is SD 10 and the other BVRAAMs acquired by Pakistan datalinked to the AWACS?

 

[mean_bird]

Just one question...Is SD 10 and the other BVRAAMs acquired by Pakistan datalinked to the AWACS?

There is no AWACS yet and you are already data-linking BVR missiles to it

 

[Zob]

To sum it up, you wish that JF – 17 will get that radar and missiles, you believe that with better radar and missiles PAF should be handle IAF fighters exept MRCA (with AESA, because it's a key requirement) and Su 30Mki, you don’t think that Mki will be a huge treat against AIM 120C and SD10 and in your opinon there is no point for a radar with long detection range.
So you have a nice theory but where are the facts mate?

Missile range like you said:

So advantage Mki

AIM 120 C that might be inducted in JF-17 has a range of around 100 Km, the same range that R77 missiles has, but the Mki already has this missile.
Advantage Mki

Radar range like you said:

Of course the Mki can’t fire the missiles at that range, but let me ask you this:
If your opponent doesn’t know you are there, would you attack him front to front, or would you stay outside of his radar range instead and get yourself into a better attack position? I doubt JF-17 has 100 Km radar range to the back side right?

SANCHO please don't ANNIHALTE us.....thank you....and your line BACK SIDE....says it all....currently SD-10 is based on R-77 so it is more or less anequal match and like i said you might have a higher detection range but in a war why would your MKIs be flying over agra and why not over AMRITSAR,HALWARA etc....that would be detection ranges become more or less not worth mentioning leaqving us with an R-77 vs an SD-10 or AIM120....it will become a less of a platform based fight and more of a BVR vs a BVR and EW suite fight....

 

[Chanakyaa]

Notably JF 17 has been categorised as 4th Plane while LCA is placed in 4.5 Gen Category with Su30

 

[saiko]

4th gen, 4.5 gen, etc are in fact just terms. The point of classifying that is to give a general summary of its capabilities, particularly for laymen who don't follow the field with as much interest. Generally it's an indication of its overall combat capability, not some very specific narrow characteristics. There is no governning body that decides these classifications.

So it really is just a useless term - far more important are the actual characteristics of the plane that make it X gen and if you are going to make an argument that X plane is better than Y plane because someone called it 4.5 gen then you'd best be able to backup what specific performance characteristics make up that difference.

Otherwise you will just look foolish. When you read the "discussion" on Wikipedia's JF-17 article for example you see this:

The JF-17, while being a cost effective replacement for PAF's older fighters like the Q-5s and the Mirage-3s is not a 4th gen fighter by any stretch of imagination. Its upto date avionics while being capable can't plug one gap that differentiates a 3rd gen a/c from a 4th gen one -- fly-by-wire controls. FBW is ALWAYS the deciding factor in classifying a bird as a beyond 3rd gen a/c. This is not to mean that the JF-17 will not be a capable a/c. Oxymoronic as it may sound, frequently, older gen a/c are more capable than newer gen a/c. The "generation" classification is more a reflection of the technology than capability. Other factors include functions like serviceability and ease of use which, while being better in a newer gen a/c does not increase "capability" per se. To give an example, the F-14 tomcat, which was replaced in USN service by the F/A-18 Hornet is about half a gen behind the hornet but yet, it is capable of many functions the hornet is incapable of.
Anyway, PAF already has a 4th gen fighter in service, the F-16 which its pilots

have put to good use and the next will be the J-10 !! Therefore, I request everyone :

DO NOT EDIT THE THUNDER DESIGNATION TO 4TH/4.5TH GEN. IT IS GROSSLY INACCURATE.

Thank You. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.194.224.66 (talk) 01:23, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Which of course is total nonsense. Take the Mig-29 (original) - no fly by wire controls and nobody is going to claim the Mig-29 is not a 4th generation fighter. But people make silly distinctions such as this in an attempt to discredit the aircraft.

Well the joke's on them, because if the JF-17 ever sees real combat it will outperform every single 3rd generation aircraft in real combat situations and my guess is a lot of 4th generation aircraft as well.

 

[Owais]

Notably JF 17 has been categorised as 4th Plane while LCA is placed in 4.5 Gen Category with Su30

su30MKI is no doubt a 4.5th generation but its a maintenance nightmare and still inferior to typhoon, super hornet and rafale. also, we cannot conclude either LCA is a 4th gen or 4.5th. will talk about it when it will finish its trials and goes into serial production

 

[Munir]

If Mig21 Bison could beat F15 in WVR then why is that impossible for JF17 against MKI?

 

[notorious_eagle]

If Mig21 Bison could beat F15 in WVR then why is that impossible for JF17 against MKI?

Its because MIG21 Bisons were being flown by Indian Pilots(Simply the best pilots in the world); and JF17's will be flown by Pakistani pilots(whom are just ordinary pilots). Not to mention JF17 will be facing the mighty SU30MKI, its a God's gift to aviation and there is no plane in this world that can match the might of MKI(maybe the F22 might give it a fair fight but the MKI will prevail).

 

[gaurysh]

Its because MIG21 Bisons were being flown by Indian Pilots(Simply the best pilots in the world); and JF17's will be flown by Pakistani pilots(whom are just ordinary pilots). Not to mention JF17 will be facing the mighty SU30MKI, its a God's gift to aviation and there is no plane in this world that can match the might of MKI(maybe the F22 might give it a fair fight but the MKI will prevail).

Thanks Eagle

 

[IceCold]

Notably JF 17 has been categorised as 4th Plane while LCA is placed in 4.5 Gen Category with Su30

Well LCA can be catergorized as a 5th generation fighter jet too does it matter? What matters however is when it finally enters into a full scale production and with a final specification whatever that maybe.

On a side note IAF does not seem be too keen with the induction of this 4.5th fighter jet. Wonder why

 

[sancho]

and like i said you might have a higher detection range but in a war why would your MKIs be flying over agra and why not over AMRITSAR,HALWARA etc....that would be detection ranges become more or less not worth mentioning leaqving us with an R-77 vs an SD-10 or AIM120....it will become a less of a platform based fight and more of a BVR vs a BVR and EW suite fight....

If I get you right, you mean the long range radar is not an advantage anymore if the Mki is near to the border right? Because the distance between an attacking fighter and Mki would be less. But on the other side the Mki could see much deeper behind the border, so it would still detect other a/c first and will shoot first right? Aren't BVR combats allways based on the capabilities of radar, missiles and EWS?

 

[yh1]

If I get you right, you mean the long range radar is not an advantage anymore if the Mki is near to the border right? Because the distance between an attacking fighter and Mki would be less. But on the other side the Mki could see much deeper behind the border, so it would still detect other a/c first and will shoot first right? Aren't BVR combats allways based on the capabilities of radar, missiles and EWS?

But MKI is also much bigger and easier to be tracked at a long distance. For the BVR it doesn't seem to be of any advantage.

 

[PAFAce]

But I have to say you're wrong about JF-17 being a late-fourth generation combat jet, IMO its airframe simply is not yet advanced enough to warrant such a classification even if its avionics are. If the Chinese articles about JF-17 modifications are true though, it could end up becoming one. I read a translation somewhere of plans to make 70% of the airframe out of composite materials, for example.

Thanks for pointing that out hj786. What I meant to say by "late fourth-gen fighter" was that it is more sophisticated than early fourth-gen fighters (ex. F-14 Tomcats, J-8s etc). I realise my mistake now. What I should have said is that the JF-17 is a true "mid-fourth-gen fighter", i.e., as good as, if not more so, than the early F-16 models. I certainly did not mean to compare it to the Rafales and Eurofighters of the world.