Su-30MKI & JF-17 Air Fight

[maverick2009]

Pilots flying JF-17 says its performance is higher than F-16's.

Care to explain how.

F16 is superbly designed fighter light years ahead of its time just look at the bubble canopy 360 degree view.

 

[PAFAce]

F16 is superbly designed fighter light years ahead of its time just look at the bubble canopy 360 degree view.

No doubt about that. However, "it's time" is early eighies. First flight for the F-16 was in February 1974, if I remember correctly. Also, its greatest achievement was not the bubble canopy (I really hate it when people reduce the F-16 to just the "bubble canopy"). Unprecedented use of fly-by-wire technology and the concept of a lightweight, reliable numbers fighter from the the "Lighweight Fighter Mafia" are of far greater significance.

What Batman means to say is that PAF F-16 pilots who've flown the JF-17 have claimed it performs better than the F-16 in some respects. This should not surprise anyone, really. The PAF has been flying the F-16 since before they joined the JF-17 project, surely you didn't think they would design an inferior plane to what they already had, did you?

As for the JF-17 and Su-30MKI contest, well, it is an implied hypothetical question. What better question to ask than "the PAF's backbone fighter vs the IAF backbone fighter"? Also, it makes more sense to compare these platforms than the comedic "LCA vs Eurofighter" debate you find on some Indian defence forums.

 

[RajsParadise]

The JF-17 project(Joint Pakistani-Chinese fighter)
The News,Pakistan ^ | 2/8/2008 | Ali Abbas Rizvi

The JF-17 project

By Ali Abbas Rizvi

2/8/2008

The JF-17 Thunder is a light combat aircraft, a single-engine fighter with all-weather capability, which Pakistan has developed with the help of the Chinese. It is a third-generation fighter that has been so designed that it can take on the fourth-generation fighter aircraft. The JF-17 fighter project would soon see serial production at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra. In this connection, a ceremony was recently held at the aeronautical complex, presided over by the chief of the air staff, Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mehmood.

According to the JF-17 project director, the PAF will not only be the user but also the manufacturer of the JF-17 aircraft. Therefore, the manufacturing and production process of the aircraft will be monitored and controlled by the PAF from the very beginning.

The story of the JF-17 Thunder, to say the least, is rather amazing. The origins of the programme lie in the Sabre 2 project that the Chinese Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (CAC) had started with the American Northrop Grumman in the late Eighties. Following the Tiananmen Square issue in 1989, the Americans pulled out of the project. In came the Russian Mikoyan OKB. Pakistan received the invitation to join the party apparently in 1995, but it took four years to finalise the Air Staff proposal for codesigning, co-developing and co-manufacturing with the Chinese government. From that point, there was no turning back. In fact, to meet the fighter gap that the PAF was facing because of the American embargoes on F-16s, the Pakistanis, to a large extent, took over the project from the Chinese. In this respect, reports say that the specifications of the project were changed to include the PAF's request for incorporation of the capability to fire beyond visual range (BVR) missiles following the induction of Su-27s by the Indian Air Force.

The underpinnings of the JF-17 project can be traced to the following factors.

First, the Pakistan Air Force has developed over the years a strong engineering base. In the early days of the service, engineering officers were sent abroad for training. The establishment of the College of Aeronautical Engineering at Korangi Creek during the mid-Sixties was a major step towards developing a team of professionals who could provide a strong engineering backbone to the service. The appointment of Colonel John H Blakelock from the United States Air Force as the first principal, and other American officers, who served till 1978, offered the much-needed impetus to the system of education at the CAE, which was developed on the lines of the United States Air Force Institute of Technology. The curricula it offers in both aerospace and avionics engineering is accepted worldwide. The CAE graduates, who have a hallmark of talent and professionalism, have helped to meet the rapid advancements in aviation technology and increasing complexity of PAF equipment. They have also made a significant contribution to the JF-17 programme, successfully dealing with different technological issues. Without them, meeting the Pakistani requirements and specifications for the JF-17 programme would not have been possible.

Second, it is safe to assume that the success of the Karakoram-8 jet trainer programme, which was carried out with the Chinese prior to the development of Thunder fighter, provided the thrust for the JF-17 programme. The lessons that were learnt from the K-8 programme regarding programme management, project designs, project monitoring, system integration, acquisition of technology from abroad or indigenous development, among others, were most likely put into effect in the JF-17 project, which is far more complex in nature and requires greater labour and technological input.

Third, while the training system of the Pakistan Air Force imbues a strong spirit of confidence, audacity and initiative among the officers and the airmen, what we see from the two joint ventures with the Chinese is that unnecessary risks were not taken. Instead, with regard to the two projects, good judgment, common sense and logic prevailed. The emphasis was not on producing the world's best weapons system; rather it was on turning out a practical weapons system which could meet the requirements of the two services. Accordingly, instead of the aim being the most sophisticated top-of-the-line systems, it was kept in mind that a practicable and cost-effective technology could produce the desired results.

Fourth, the PAF has certainly followed the Indian Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), or Tejas (Radiance) programme, and kept its failures in mind while working on the JF-17 project. The Indian LCA programme is now approaching the fourth decade of its operation. The initial operational clearance of the LCA project, which was sanctioned in 1983 to replace the MiG-21s, has now been pushed back to mid-2008 while it could be joining the Indian Air Force in the years beyond 2010. Not only that, the original project cost of Rs56 billion could cross a figure of Rs100 billion. For the much-touted aircraft that would have a digital fly-by-wire flight control system, composite airframe made of aluminium-lithium alloys, carbon-fibre and titanium, full-glass cockpit, advanced combat avionics, multi-mode radar and contemporary weapon systems, the costs have massively over-run and the delays are mind-boggling. But still, the dream of developing an indigenous Kaveri engine is far off and the initial aircraft squadrons will be equipped with the American GE-404 engines. Nevertheless, in the fast changing geo-strategic environment, the missions for which the LCA was originally conceived may have changed when it is inducted in the Indian Air Force in large numbers.

Fifth, unsurprisingly, the US embargoes that keep on hitting the Pakistan military again and again have done wonders for the country's indigenous defence capabilities. These embargoes have convinced the military hierarchy that the US will always be an unreliable partner and, as such, it is imperative not to put all the eggs in one basket. Also, the panacea to these embargoes is developing indigenous defence capabilities. As one would have thought, we are once again hearing suggestions over the F-16s by certain not-too-smart American senators and congressmen.

On March 21, 2007, President Musharraf was at the PAC Kamra to mark the arrival of the first two JF-17s from China. On that occasion, the Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed, declared: "We thank Almighty Allah for giving us the strength, wisdom and foresight to conceive the idea of the JF-17 aircraft." The JF-17 project tells us that there is no substitute to grasping good ideas, making quick decisions, strong commitment and hard work while at the same time keeping your head down. No wonder, the air chief is a happy man. And so is the service that has seen many embargoes, lack of funding and denial of technology in the face of a superior adversary.

While we are highly critical of our military these days, some of the criticisms certainly more than justified, achievements like the JF-17 project should nevertheless be acclaimed and recognised.

The writer is news editor, The News, Karachi. Email: abbasrizvi14@hotmail.com

Keyword: jf17

Now this is what your media says a 3rd Gen Fighter...

 

[Owais]

The JF-17 project(Joint Pakistani-Chinese fighter)

Keyword: jf17

Now this is what your media says a 3rd Gen Fighter...

RajsParadise, you have no Idea what are you talking about I think if you read the whole thread you might not said that stupid argument. ok once again I tell you the reason behind that so called "3rd generation aircraft". Chinese rank their jets a generation behind the western ranks so if a J10/JF17/SU30 is a 4rth generation known in western world, chinese call it a 3rd generation

 

[RajsParadise]

Oh..probably that's the reason why the author Emphasized the fact that it is a 3rd gen fighter craft made to fight against 4th gen fighter craft, so u will now claim that JF-17 will take on F-22, Typhoon, Mig 35 and Pak-FA. What a fan boy claims.

and coming to your comment regarding I don't know any thing...U are making that comment against a Attorney who excelled in International Relations and is at the Helm of things which u can't even dream in your wildest dreams.

..So stop making Chinese proverbs.

I think we need to start a new thread JF-17 vs F22, Mig 35, Typhoon, Rafale,

 

[PAFAce]

Oh..probably that's the reason why the author Emphasized the fact that it is a 3rd gen fighter craft made to fight against 4th gen fighter craft, so u will now claim that JF-17 will take on F-22, Typhoon, Mig 35 and Pak-FA. What a fan boy claims.

and coming to your comment regarding I don't know any thing...U are making that comment against a Attorney who excelled in International Relations and is at the Helm of things which u can't even dream in your wildest dreams.

..So stop making Chinese proverbs.

I think we need to start a new thread JF-17 vs F22, Mig 35, Typhoon, Rafale,

"Third Generation" and "Fourth Generation" are not just words. If you put some effort into researching the meanings of those terms you would realise that there are pretty much no third-gen aircrafts flying around anymore (ofcourse, there are exceptions like the Mig-21, F-4, Mirages etc). No country in their right mind would invest in third-generation fighters today. The guy who wrote this article is as reliable as any Indian journalist would be on these subjects. Seriously, dude, why make childish arguments? the JF-17 was, and is, a late-fourth generation fighter, nobody is talking about the F-22 here.

Also, the Chinese do have a different ranking system for aircraft, but that has nothing to do with the genius journalist above. My 8-year-old sister knows more about aviation than some of the journalists in India and Pakistan.

 

[Patriot]

Hi,
Jf-17 is a forth generation fighter.
1) Fly by Wire Control System
2) BVR Missile Support
3) Much more Agile then 3rd Generation Fighters such as Mig21, Mirage 3/5.
-
Now I think PAF should equip All Jf-17's with GRIFO Radars and SD-70 Missile.
GRFIO has a range of 100KM and SD-70 Missile has a range of 70 KM.
Now Although Su30mKi radar range is 200KM+ how ever it will not have anything to fire at that range even if it detects JF-17 because the BVR Missile it carries has a range of 80KM and anything above 80K has a very low PKK and IFF is another issue.So, I believe along with Radar and other stuff PAF should also be careful about Agility as IAF and PAF Fighters may get into Dogfights because JF-17 should be able to handle any IAF Fighter except MRCA (If MRCa gets AESA) and SU30MKI (SU30MKI can also be handled by integrating better missiles with high range and good PKK).After reading the Missile Range i don't think SU30MKI will be a huge threat once AIM120C and SD10 are fully inducted in PAF.Radar as well as Missile Range is what matters in BVR Combat.Both Pilots will try to fire at each other within 60-70Km as anything above 70KM will have a very low chance of kill (No Escape Zone is best for BVR Kill).Can anyone with real reliable knowledge tell me range of KLJ-7 Radar?There is no point of radar with 200KM+ Range detection imo when you don't have anything to fire at those ranges.

 

[mean_bird]

Hi,
Jf-17 is a forth generation fighter.
1) Fly by Wire Control System
2) BVR Missile Support
3) Much more Agile then 3rd Generation Fighters such as Mig21, Mirage 3/5.
-

Saad sahib, its not even worth the effort. Nobody with a basic knowledge of aircrafts can even argue that JF-17 is 3rd gen except people who believe only what they like to believe.

Now I think PAF should equip All Jf-17's with GRIFO Radars and SD-70 Missile.
GRFIO has a range of 100KM and SD-70 Missile has a range of 70 KM.

Interesting, I have read this 100km range for Grifo before but couldn't find a reference. I would be interested if you have one or the complete specs of Grifo. The webpages from selex aren't really that informative in terms of specifications.

Now Although Su30mKi radar range is 200KM+ how ever it will not have anything to fire at that range even if it detects JF-17 because the BVR Missile it carries has a range of 80KM and anything above 80K has a very low PKK and IFF is another issue.So, I believe along with Radar and other stuff PAF should also be careful about Agility as IAF and PAF Fighters may get into Dogfights because JF-17 should be able to handle any IAF Fighter except MRCA (If MRCa gets AESA) and SU30MKI (SU30MKI can also be handled by integrating better missiles with high range and good PKK).After reading the Missile Range i don't think SU30MKI will be a huge threat once AIM120C and SD10 are fully inducted in PAF.Radar as well as Missile Range is what matters in BVR Combat.Both Pilots will try to fire at each other within 60-70Km as anything above 70KM will have a very low chance of kill (No Escape Zone is best for BVR Kill).Can anyone with real reliable knowledge tell me range of KLJ-7 Radar?There is no point of radar with 200KM+ Range detection imo when you don't have anything to fire at those ranges.

That's quite true. The only advantage you have with a very long range radar is that you know the presence of the other fighter plane but there is nothing you can do about it till it gets into your missile range, and most shots will be fired well within that range (40-60km range) to ensure a good enough kill ratio.

Moreover, the 200km+ range is for a fighter the size of Su-30 or Su-27 and not JF-17. For JF-17, it would be significantly lower. Also, with good enough sensors, the plane being tracked also gets to know of the presence of the other fighter and with AWACS, it won't matter much because everyone will be aware of everyone else.

Regarding KLJ-7, Jane's had put it at 75+km but I would like to remind that Jane has been inaccurate on chinese stuff so it ain't a very reliable source as it is for western stuff.

 

[Patriot]

Saad sahib, its not even worth the effort. Nobody with a basic knowledge of aircrafts can even argue that JF-17 is 3rd gen except people who believe only what they like to believe.


Interesting, I have read this 100km range for Grifo before but couldn't find a reference. I would be interested if you have one or the complete specs of Grifo. The webpages from selex aren't really that informative in terms of specifications.




That's quite true. The only advantage you have with a very long range radar is that you know the presence of the other fighter plane but there is nothing you can do about it till it gets into your missile range, and most shots will be fired well within that range (40-60km range) to ensure a good enough kill ratio.

Moreover, the 200km+ range is for a fighter the size of Su-30 or Su-27 and not JF-17. For JF-17, it would be significantly lower. Also, with good enough sensors, the plane being tracked also gets to know of the presence of the other fighter and with AWACS, it won't matter much because everyone will be aware of everyone else.

Regarding KLJ-7, Jane's had put it at 75+km but I would like to remind that Jane has been inaccurate on chinese stuff so it ain't a very reliable source as it is for western stuff.

I think i read 100KM+ Range on the PDF which you posted in another thread in which they mentioned JF-17 is equipped with Grifo.Quite honestly, the SU30MKI threat is way way overrated.Once, AIM120C and SD10 are inducted then PAF will be on par with Indian Air Force.I just hope PAF inducts JF-17 and SD10 quickly and also get's Block52 and AIM20C.It F16 MLU and Block 52 should be able to take out MKI's and JF-17 can be used for all other IAF fighters if it gets Grifo Radar (Which i think it has because Sir Muradk said JF-17 does not have chinese avionics..but even 75KM+ is not bad because SD10 Range is only 70KM (Correct me if i am wrong..I am on slow internet atm so can't search).The mere fact that JF-17 has Fly by wire control makes it 4th Generation Fighter...Frankly, these Indians are just young boys without actual knowledge (Although, I am young but i do read technical info before making posts).By 2014 PAF will be getting J10 and they should equip them with AESA.PAF will be in very good position in 4-5 years and we will also get AWACS so JF-17 Pilots will also have info regarding the presence of other fighters in the area because of AWACS.PAF Leadership has done awesome job.It all comes down to Pilot skills now imo.Now Dogfight between MKI and JF17 i can't comment on that as i don't know how agile JF-17 really is.All these Indian's bragging about MKI huge radar don't know that if you don't have missile with a range of 200KM how will you shoot down a bogey.The advantage Indian Air Force currently has will be finished once PAF gets SD10 and AIM120C's.I just hope there is no confrontation between IAf and PAf right now as we don't have a solid BVR Platform.

 

[maverick2009]

SU30MKI BVR missle range is 105km

The Radar range is 140km for a average fighter RCS.

With regards su30mki advantages over both JF17 & F16 are as follows

1. upto 8 bvr missles versis 4 max for both F16/JF17
2. twin engines for more range/power
3. TVC & Canards very useful for WVR combat - extreme agility. All new fighters have canards ie FC20/Typhoon, Rafale Gripen
4. 2 pilots to reduce workload
5. Shear nos 100 su30mki in service now versis nil F16/.52 & 10 jf17. By the time first F16/52 enters PAF IN 2011 iaf will be fielding 150+ Flankers.
6. Massive upgrade all in place in new tranche MKI from 2012 ONWARDS with ramjet BVR missle KH172 and new Ibris Aesa Radar.

** Nothing short of over 200 FC20/F16/52 is what PAF needs to ensure a 50/50 CHANCE against the SU30MKI fleet.

This excludes the potential massive threat from MRCA which may stil happen by 2011

 

[sancho]

Now I think PAF should equip All Jf-17's with GRIFO Radars and SD-70 Missile.
GRFIO has a range of 100KM and SD-70 Missile has a range of 70 KM...
...There is no point of radar with 200KM+ Range detection imo when you don't have anything to fire at those ranges.

To sum it up, you wish that JF – 17 will get that radar and missiles, you believe that with better radar and missiles PAF should be handle IAF fighters exept MRCA (with AESA, because it's a key requirement) and Su 30Mki, you don’t think that Mki will be a huge treat against AIM 120C and SD10 and in your opinon there is no point for a radar with long detection range.
So you have a nice theory but where are the facts mate?

Missile range like you said:

BVR Missile it carries has a range of 80KM / SD-70 Missile has a range of 70 KM

So advantage Mki

AIM 120 C that might be inducted in JF-17 has a range of around 100 Km, the same range that R77 missiles has, but the Mki already has this missile.
Advantage Mki

Radar range like you said:

Su30mKi radar range is 200KM+ / GRFIO has a range of 100KM.

Of course the Mki can’t fire the missiles at that range, but let me ask you this:
If your opponent doesn’t know you are there, would you attack him front to front, or would you stay outside of his radar range instead and get yourself into a better attack position? I doubt JF-17 has 100 Km radar range to the back side right?
This advantage of an Mki can only be compensated if JF-17 has AWECS support, but we are talking about a 1 on 1 comparison of these fighters, so without AWECS!
Again advantage Mki
At the moment the JF-17 has less advantages against a Mki, that's why many people say it's the wrong PAF fighter for a comparison. Even these fighters could be the backbone of PAF and IAF in numbers, in quality J10, F16 MLU and block 52 will be the backbone of PAF.

 

[LCA]

As far as BVR missile for MKI is concern it is R-77 which has a range of about 100 km.

But there is an upgradation version of R-77 called R-77 M1 for PAK-FA ,has a range of about 150-175 km like AIM-120D,which will be integrated with MKI in coming years.

 

[Patriot]

To sum it up, you wish that JF – 17 will get that radar and missiles, you believe that with better radar and missiles PAF should be handle IAF fighters exept MRCA (with AESA, because it's a key requirement) and Su 30Mki, you don’t think that Mki will be a huge treat against AIM 120C and SD10 and in your opinon there is no point for a radar with long detection range.
So you have a nice theory but where are the facts mate?

Missile range like you said:

So advantage Mki

AIM 120 C that might be inducted in JF-17 has a range of around 100 Km, the same range that R77 missiles has, but the Mki already has this missile.
Advantage Mki

Radar range like you said:

Of course the Mki can’t fire the missiles at that range, but let me ask you this:
If your opponent doesn’t know you are there, would you attack him front to front, or would you stay outside of his radar range instead and get yourself into a better attack position? I doubt JF-17 has 100 Km radar range to the back side right?
This advantage of an Mki can only be compensated if JF-17 has AWECS support, but we are talking about a 1 on 1 comparison of these fighters, so without AWECS!
Again advantage Mki
At the moment the JF-17 has less advantages against a Mki, that's why many people say it's the wrong PAF fighter for a comparison. Even these fighters could be the backbone of PAF and IAF in numbers, in quality J10, F16 MLU and block 52 will be the backbone of PAF.

By the time MRCA is indcuted PAF will be inducting J10 and i am sure PAF will equip it with good radar.Even without Grifo S7..KLJ has a range of 80KM according to Janes and SD10 has a range of 75KM+ according to Janes which is more then enough to take out any IAF Fighters except MKI and MRCA.AIM120C's will be inducted once MLU and Block52 arrive which is why i said right now PAf does not have solid BVR platform and no pilot will shoot at 100kM+ ranges lol..Even USAF Pilots in gulf war hit in ranges between 50-60Km because the missile accuracy was very low above 50-60KM and Iraqis pilots could easily break the lock by speeding up the jet and going in opposite direction and i highly doubt AIM120 will be inducted in JF-17 as American's wont give source code for it.Only AIM9 will be inducted.For BVR SD10 will be used...Well, obviousely the generals plan strategy with all resources in mind..Its not like they will send JF-17 without AWACS support if they do have AWACS support.There is no doubt that MKI is superior to JF-17.In 4-5 years PAF will be in total different shape.

 

[Owais]

Oh..probably that's the reason why the author Emphasized the fact that it is a 3rd gen fighter craft made to fight against 4th gen fighter craft, so u will now claim that JF-17 will take on F-22, Typhoon, Mig 35 and Pak-FA. What a fan boy claims.

and coming to your comment regarding I don't know any thing...U are making that comment against a Attorney who excelled in International Relations and is at the Helm of things which u can't even dream in your wildest dreams.

..So stop making Chinese proverbs.

I think we need to start a new thread JF-17 vs F22, Mig 35, Typhoon, Rafale,

I knew that you may counter argue with more baseless comments. from where does F22 comes in debate?? F22 is a generation ahead of JF17/Mig 35/SU30. here are few links for you to get knowledge.

4th generation jet fighter: Facts, Discussion Forum, and Encyclopedia Article

Fighter aircraft: Facts, Discussion Forum, and Encyclopedia Article

 

[Arsalan]

I knew that you may counter argue with more baseless comments. from where does F22 comes in debate?? F22 is a generation ahead of JF17/Mig 35/SU30. here are few links for you to get knowledge.

4th generation jet fighter: Facts, Discussion Forum, and Encyclopedia Article

Fighter aircraft: Facts, Discussion Forum, and Encyclopedia Article

thankyou, it is a nice site giving the details about the fighter plane generation classification! previously i have not been able to find one other than wikipedia which was quite unreliable, though this site seems to be a copy of wikipedia but it will be good to shut them up who claim JF 17 as a third generation!

thums up sir!!