Su-30MKI & JF-17 Air Fight

[zombie:-)]

if jf 17 has a better radar and avionics than SU 30 than there is a chance it can beat SU 30 MKI

man wake up can any of your fellow countrymen support your ideas with facts then i am all ears right now ....will it be jf-17 blk 2 .....and any official word on blk2 ...if there is please throw some light on it

 

[BATMAN]

Batman

The Thunder is not yet operational Yet various threads are being opened up about JF17 needing a new radar, new engine, new weapons, and changing the alloy structure to composites etc etc. They are calling it JF17MK2 or JF18 in some cases.

They are serial produced and are operational in squadron strength.
I enjoy… reading all those new ideas and future of THUNDER, in this case you are at wrong place.

In particular we seem to believe the French can use Rafale technolgy to improve JF17 in future. It just seems a bit premature to me.

I'm not familiar of any such proposals for contracting Rafale for any technology transfer.
BTW, In my opinion the THUNDER blk. 2 is better than Rafale, but I don’t want to comment more because no prototype is known yet. All I can say is that after first 50..60, second batch is planned to be blk.2.
With one sqardon already in service and expectations are that atleast 30...40 THUNDERS would be produced in year 2010.
See... BLK. 52 is not as premature as it seems to you.

People really need to give this plane a chance to arrive and perform first

What is your gauge of performance? 2000 test flights! or tested in war?
Why you keep forgetting that it not only meets the PAF specifications but it has been passed by war experienced PAF pilots.

It will never be a SU30MKI or a F18SH or a Rafael because these are twin engined super fighters. JF17 is single engined low cost low maintance mass production war plane..

Neither does F-16 has twin engine, which roasted SU’s *** in redflag.
BTW, from my perspective, twin engine SU30 is not same as twin engine Hornet or Rafale.
Hornet and Rafale are multirole platform, whereas SU30 is a dedicated strike role fighter, which is not meant for dogfight.
Cost depends on components!! and this is one beauty of THUNDER which we keep forgetting is its highly modular design concept and its swift serviceability.

It can,t carry the same no of weapons jammers and radar capability. It will never match the flanker for speed and power. But like you people say it is smaller and has less RCS AND COSTS only one third the price of a flanker.

What about speed comparison of flanker and THUNDER? Please elaborate with support of specs.
For 1 to 1 dog fight, all you should know is that it can carry two sidewinders, two BVR, it has a gun, its engine response is very good and it is more agile than F-16.

And yes, posting same post twice does not make your point more presentable.

 

[maverick2009]

Batman.

Su30mki is not a Strike a Strike fighter its a multi role fighter.

India SU30 MKI is geared to Air DOMINANCE...

Bars Pesa Phased Array Radar. The best radar Russia ever produced that tracks 40 TARGETS at once. Can engage 4 different targets simultaneously..
Maximum tracking range 200km

Typical load 8 BVR/WVR air air missles ie R77/27 vymal currently the fastetst BVR missles in the world. Of course HMS and datalinking are standard.

So you see its actually a true air superiority fighter.

With regards the F16 beating S30MKI it was actualy USA F15C equipped with Anraams AND Awacs... support beating a virtually blind SU30MKI which had no Awacs & only training mode radar on.

Re F16 VERSIS SU30MKI both the USA & Singapore who operate far superior F16s to PAF blocka/b where both tested to the full in Cope india over the last few years.

I won,t comment on JF17 has there is no real data avialable for this Chinease fighter. But looking at the design and the cost around $15m each i would be surprised if it matches up to F16 in PAF.

 

[maverick2009]

Bat man one other point that may have escaped you.

IAF Flankers and Russian Flankers are set to receive the KH172 Ramjet version of the R77 bvr missle. Dubbed the AWACS killer. This has a spped of mach 4 and range of over 200km It will used in conjunction with Russia first AESA radar the Snow leopard IBRIS which will just one part of the first upgrade to IAF SU30 MKI flankers.

These flankers are going to awsome fighters in Soutrh Asian Skys. And they look so damn Sexy too.

I have pasted a neutral article confirming all my points on this hyperlink

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/su-30.htm

 

[Keysersoze]

Bat man one other point that may have escaped you.

IAF Flankers and Russian Flankers are set to receive the KH172 Ramjet version of the R77 bvr missle. Dubbed the AWACS killer. This has a spped of mach 4 and range of over 200km It will used in conjunction with Russia first AESA radar the Snow leopard IBRIS which will just one part of the first upgrade to IAF SU30 MKI flankers.

These flankers are going to awsome fighters in Soutrh Asian Skys. And they look so damn Sexy too.

I have pasted a neutral article confirming all my points on this hyperlink

Su-30 FLANKER

Just for you....... special thanks to growler/PC for the scan.....

 

[Keysersoze]

BTW Maverick the question has to be asked.....If the Flankers are of such dominance....where was the "precision strike" talked of by the Indian Government? After all all they would be facing would be block 15 f-16's right? and the MKI is such a super machine. Oh and btw your claims about how the MKI performed in the UK are interesting as none of the results were released. SO all of your claims are conjecture.

 

[maverick2009]

Keysorose.

We could argue all posts are conjecture. Where do we draw the line.

One thing i do know SU30MKI is not a strike plane

Heres a good link explaining why if anybody is remotely interested.
The Su-30MKI Info Page - Vayu Sena

I for one believe that Su30mki is not unbeatable its just a great looking beast and the back bone of the IAF for certainly the next 5 to 10 years until MRCA comes in large nos.

With regards PAF answer they need nothing less than F16 BLK52 and lots of them. 60 F16 will be in serious trouble against over 200 FLANKERS...

As for JF17 & FC20 lets wait and see nobody knows wat they can or can,t do now that is real conjecture. not much info at all.. on chinease goodies.

 

[BATMAN]

Batman.

Su30mki is not a Strike a Strike fighter its a multi role fighter

India SU30 MKI is geared to Air DOMINANCE...

It is a strike role ...likely geared to air dominance... but not multirole.

Bars Pesa Phased Array Radar. The best radar Russia ever produced that tracks 40 TARGETS at once. Can engage 4 different targets simultaneously..
Maximum tracking range 200km

Typical load 8 BVR/WVR air air missles ie R77/27 vymal currently the fastetst BVR missles in the world. Of course HMS and datalinking are standard.

So you see its actually a true air superiority fighter.

200 is definately not the shootdown range, on the web it says Bars have 140km detection range!!!!. Due to smaller RCS THUNDER may not have 2 meter RCS at 200 and don't forget KLJ10 can fire 2 BVR simaltaneously..

With regards the F16 beating S30MKI it was actualy USA F15C equipped with Anraams AND Awacs... support beating a virtually blind SU30MKI which had no Awacs & only training mode radar on.

F15-Eagle has bigger RCS than viper, cannot be considered as same.
Hmm..now, we are shifting away from 1 to 1 dog fight to net centric + BVR warfare!!!

Re F16 VERSIS SU30MKI both the USA & Singapore who operate far superior F16s to PAF blocka/b where both tested to the full in Cope india over the last few years.

Yet, I have no knowledge about it.
But any viper with AIM-120 can take a pot shot at SU30 before getting hurt itself and there is no escape to AIM-120.

I won,t comment on JF17 has there is no real data avialable for this Chinease fighter. But looking at the design and the cost around $15m each i would be surprised if it matches up to F16 in PAF.

If you don't even know that THUNDER is jointly produced (J-oint F-ighter) and made specificaly for Pakistan on PAF specifications than you know nothing about the bird.
I have told you in past that if you need to read official perspective than you should consult with the official website i.e.
Pakistan Aeronautical Complex....
JF-17.com : Your Best Resource for JF-17/FC-1
We know it cost less and is best value for the buck. One can buy 2 THUNDERS at the cost of one F-16 without compromising performance.
I'm not sure about your figure of $15m.... how did you came about this figure?
BTW, if you don't believe or do not know the real data than how come you know the price info. so accurately!!

 

[BATMAN]

Just for you....... special thanks to growler/PC for the scan.....

Oh...why do I keep forgetting, not to trust (fan boy claims on) wiki.

 

[BATMAN]

BTW Maverick the question has to be asked.....If the Flankers are of such dominance....where was the "precision strike" talked of by the Indian Government? After all all they would be facing would be block 15 f-16's right? and the MKI is such a super machine. Oh and btw your claims about how the MKI performed in the UK are interesting as none of the results were released. SO all of your claims are conjecture.

It is indeed a super machine and therefore start dancing zig zag ..when pilots press hard on gas.
This is the comment, what I rememeber from the red flag leakouts.
Oh yes,, the USAF guy also said that this is the best opportunity to tka shots at SU30MKI..

 

[sancho]

It is a strike role ...likely geared to air dominance... but not multirole.

Can you explain what multi role means to you?

 

[PAFAce]

Can you explain what multi role means to you?

Good question. Here's my attempt at an answer.

One dimensional fighters (point-defence interceptors, area-defence interceptors, bomber jets etc.) are a thing of the past, really. All fighter jets these days are capable of both air-to-ground and air-to-air combat, however, a true multirole fighter is primarily designed to do both equally well (more or less). It all comes down to the engineers and what they decided to put top on their list.

Ex:
F-16 - Multirole
F-15 - Air Dominance
F-15E - Strike

When you make the claim that the Su-30MKI is a multirole combat aircraft, you are not wrong, but you are also not entirely correct. It can do both, but it's pupose is one, as Keysersoze and Batman have argued above. That said, let's give credit where credit is deserved, the Russians have really done a great job with that machine, a 30 year old platform and it's still one of the best around.

 

[maverick2009]

I believe the first flankers flew in 1988 about 10 years after the much heralded F15 & F16.

As for SU30MKI this first flew in 2002.

Taking out the excellent Pesa Radar, Great weapons mix, massive range and brute power of 2 engines the biggest advantage of SU30MKI over JF17 is that the indian fighter is now mature. Been in service since 2002 already equipping 5 Squadrons.. Its operational doctrine has been tested with and against F15 F16 Mirage2000 Typhoon/Tornado both in india and in the West.

As the USAF Pilot in the vedio stressed the SU30MKI is a notch above F15 F16 withy the right envionment ie real radar switched on & real AWACS ( Phalcon of course). And that will be more than enough until MRCA arrive.

The other point every one has missed the massive upgrade programe that i have only hinted at. The su30mki currently is only Block 1.
At some stage these fighters will get MLU. These will include the following.

1. IBRIS AESA radar
2. New ramjet BVR missle
3. RAM coating and other stealth improvements as spin offs from PAK FA programme..
4. New AL41 engines which can supercruise.

*** These are al improvements off the 5 GEN FIGHTER..Pak FA

 

[Zob]

Ok maverick....here goes my inept understanding....

R-77 BVR vs SD10


R-77 maximum speed is Mach 4 operational range is 90 kms if i am not wrong....

now let's look at the SD-10 speed is similar operational range is similar...because SD10 is based on the R-77

The question is SU30 fires a BVR and JF-17 does the same....it will all come down to Electronic Counter measures.

I agree that the SU-30 has a higher detection range and can engage 4 targets simultenously compared to the KLJ-10 but given a INDO PAK scenario i have mentioned before the ranges are negated when the enemy's border is less then 30 kilometers from your forward bases...i can understand that you might have a SU30 flying over Agra and tracking our JF-17 but in a war situation why would you want to keep your beast so far away from the enemies border...once you deploy your SU-30 to Halwara,Pathankot etc....fine you can see more inside our territory from your fighter but our fighters are closer to you and the ranges become favourable in our favour...even if not in our favour atleast more or less equal. the only thing that will be in favour of the SU-30 is tracking and engaging 4 fighters simultenously...that shall be countered when pakistan goes for its BLOCK II upgrade after the initial 50 fighters....

before you jump the gun and say but yes "lets not talk about upgrades" my friend i think you were the one who started talking about ramjet powered BVRs as a MLU for the SU-30.

 

[sancho]

Good question. Here's my attempt at an answer.

One dimensional fighters (point-defence interceptors, area-defence interceptors, bomber jets etc.) are a thing of the past, really. All fighter jets these days are capable of both air-to-ground and air-to-air combat, however, a true multirole fighter is primarily designed to do both equally well (more or less). It all comes down to the engineers and what they decided to put top on their list.

Ex:
F-16 - Multirole
F-15 - Air Dominance
F-15E - Strike

When you make the claim that the Su-30MKI is a multirole combat aircraft, you are not wrong, but you are also not entirely correct. It can do both, but it's pupose is one, as Keysersoze and Batman have argued above. That said, let's give credit where credit is deserved, the Russians have really done a great job with that machine, a 30 year old platform and it's still one of the best around.

So the first point is Su 30 are also multi role fighters just as F15E (designed for AS with added strike capability), EF 2000, Mig 35, F16, F18, or Rafale. The difference is that some of them are better in a2a, the others in a2g and some are quit good in both roles.
The second point that you mentioned was designed to do both roles!

The Su-30MK is a two-seat highly-manoeuvrable fighter designed for air-superiority and strikes at ground and naval surface

Sukhoi Company (JSC) - Airplanes - Military Aircraft - Su-30ÌÊ

So the base of the Mki was already designed for both roles and compared to Chinas Su 30 MKK, India focused far more to improve it's a2a capabilities (TVC, Canards, PESA radar).
So if you count F16 as a true multi role fighter in medium class, you also have to admit that the Mki is a true multi role fighter in the heavy class!
It offers the good strike capability from the base and has now nearly everything that is needed for a2a combats (maneuverability, longe range radar and weapons, good t/w ratio and speed). Of course that doesn't mean it is unbeatable, but that makes it to a very good fighter.