Su-30MKI & JF-17 Air Fight

[Indiarox]

Plus the fact that AWACS not exactly Stealthy or maneuverable to avoid such a long range missile.
Don't see the PAF's plane equipped with any thing like that in near future or even in the far future

 

[Indiarox]

4.5-Gen SU 30 MKI is an eagle and 3-Gen JF 17 is a pigeon. You can imagine the fight.

I think The MKI is the winner ,but don't underestimate it we to have a so called pigeon (Mig-21)Which works well when in large numbers

 

[Indiarox]

LOL, for ppl for does not believe china will have stealth planes before 2015, I will just tell you one thing: the J-XX 001 has already been produced

No one doubts the fact that china will eventually get a stealth fighter the J-10 is not stealthy if you want to know why read my previous post
The j-xx(not sure of the name )will need at least 8-10 years before first flight (if all goes well)and another 5-7 years of testing and only then induction.Which would be aprox 2025-2027
Russians have been working on the PAK-Fa(Also known as Firefox NATO name and also as raptorski for its resemblance to the raptor)
for quite a long time and a lot of info has been taken from the mig1.43/3 programs so it will be in production in 2015.
Claiming that the Chinese stealth fighter will fly by 2015 is just absured

 

[Jigs]

Su-30MKI has been proven at red flag against F-16s and F-15s. JF-17 is a great plane but more on the level of F-16s. In an dogfight it beats out the JF-17 in everything thrust/load/radar/maneuverability(V thrust vectoring). Comparing the two doesn't make sense.

 

[Dazzler]

Jigs,

How did you make that assumption that MKI beats the thunder in dogfights? Were you informed by some PAF official in this regard? Please share with us if this is the case. Let me clarify something here that many under estimate. You cannot compare A with B without sufficient evidence and info of various parameters. You being a Turkish must know that even F-5 tiger gave a hell of a time to MANY fighters all over the world. Why? simple, it is small, very nifty and can stand on its own in WVR engagements. Your statement is vague as I personally came to know that thunder is awesome at turning at close corners and was behind the Falcon within seconds during trials. This is a FACT and a glimpse of it can be seen in the video of first Squadron induction ceremony where it made faster turns than the Falcon.

The bottom line is, please do not compare As with Bs on hypothetical basis, especially when you have no clue whatsoever.

Thanks

 

[Jigs]

Jigs,

How did you make that assumption that MKI beats the thunder in dogfights? Were you informed by some PAF official in this regard? Please share with us if this is the case. Let me clarify something here that many under estimate. You cannot compare A with B without sufficient evidence and info of various parameters. You being a Turkish must know that even F-5 tiger gave a hell of a time to MANY fighters all over the world. Why? simple, it is small, very nifty and can stand on its own in WVR engagements. Your statement is vague as I personally came to know that thunder is awesome at turning at close corners and was behind the Falcon within seconds during trials. This is a FACT and a glimpse of it can be seen in the video of first Squadron induction ceremony where it made faster turns than the Falcon.

The bottom line is, please do not compare As with Bs on hypothetical basis, especially when you have no clue whatsoever.

Thanks

JF-17 is a lightweight fighter with ok avionics what makes it so great ? The size ? It has a thrust to weight ratio less then one and no thrust vectoring. It isn't a assumption it is common sense. Do you want me to break down with technical specifications of the aircraft ?
Or talk about the Red Flag i will do both ?

"When you compare it with US airplanes; where does it stand up against the F-16 and F-15, it's a tad bit better than both are. And that's pretty impressive, it has better radar, more thrust, vectored thrust, longer ranged weapons, so it's pretty impressive. The Sukhoi is a tad bit better (holds arm at chest level, and the other arm signifying the Sukhoi a wee bit higher)."

-Colonel Terrence Fornof (Person who said this) is an F-15 pilot and the Director of the Requirements and Testing office at the United States Air Force Warfare Center, Nellis AFB, Nevada.

So unless the JF-17 is better then a F-15....think about it because this American F-15 pilot just said so at Red Flag SU-30MKI is a better aircraft then their F-15s.

Now for specs.

* Crew: 2
* Length: 21.935 m (72.97 ft)
* Wingspan: 14.7 m (48.2 ft)
* Height: 6.36 m (20.85 ft)
* Wing area: 62.0 m² (667 ft&#178
* Empty weight: 18,400 kg [4] (40,565 lb)
* Loaded weight: 24,900 kg (54,895 lb)
* Max takeoff weight: 38,800 kg (85,600 lb)
* Powerplant: 2× Lyulka AL-31FP turbofans with thrust vectoring, 131 kN (27,557 lbf) each

Performance

* Maximum speed: Mach 2.34 (2490 km/h) at 11,000 m (36,000 ft)
* Range: 5,000 km (2,700 nmi) at altitude; (1,270 km, 690 nmi near ground level)(With Internal Fuel Tank)
* Endurance: 4.5 hrs (upto 10 hrs with in-flight refueling)
* Service ceiling: 17,300 m (56,800 ft)
* Rate of climb: >300 m/s (70,000 ft/min)
* Wing loading: 401 kg/m² (98 lb/ft&#178
* Thrust/weight: 1.07 at loaded weight & 1.15 with 50% fuel

Armament:

built-in single-barrel GSh-301 gun (30 mm calibre, 150 rounds)

Air to Air Missiles:The Su 30 MKI has 12 hardpoints for carrying various weapons

* 10 × R-77 (AA-12) active radar homing medium range AAM, 100 km
* 10 × Astra missile active radar homing medium range AAM, 80 km
* 6 × R-27P (AA-10C) semi-active radar guided, long range AAM 130 km
* 6 × R-27P (AA-10D) Infrared homing extended range version, long range AAM 120 km
* 2 × R-27R/AA-10A semi-active radar guided, medium range AAM,80 km
* 2 × R-27T (AA-10B) infrared homing seeker, medium range AAM, 70 km
* 6 × R-73 (AA-11) short range AAM, 30 km
* 3 × Novator KS-172 AAM-L 400 km/Russian air-to-air missile designed as an "AWACS killer"




JF-17

* Crew: 1
* Length: 14.0 m (45.9 ft)
* Wingspan: 9.45 m (including 2 wingtip missiles) (31 ft)
* Height: 4.77 m (15 ft 8 in)
* Wing area: 24.4 m² (263 ft&#178
* Empty weight: 6,411 kg (14,134 lb)
* Loaded weight: 9,100 kg including 2× wing-tip mounted air-to-air missiles (20,062 lb)
* Max takeoff weight: 12,700 kg (28,000 lb)
* Powerplant: 1× Klimov RD-93 turbofan
o Dry thrust: 49.4 kN (11,106 lbf)
o Thrust with afterburner: 84.4 kN (18,973 lbf)
* G-limit: +8.5 g [3]
* Internal Fuel Capacity: 2300 kg (5,130 lb)

Performance

* Maximum speed: Mach 1.8 (1,191 knots, 2,205 kph)
* Combat radius: 1,352 km (840 mi)
* Ferry range: 3,000 km (2,175 mi)
* Service ceiling: 16,700 m (54,790 ft)
* Thrust/weight: 0.99

Armament

* Guns: 1× 23 mm GSh-23-2 twin-barrel cannon (can be replaced with 30 mm GSh-30-2)
* Hardpoints: 7 in total (4× under-wing, 2× wing-tip, 1× under-fuselage) with a capacity of 3,629 kg (8,000 lb) external fuel and ordnance
* Rockets: 57 mm, 90 mm unguided rocket pods
* Missiles:
o Air-to-air missiles:
+ Short range: AIM-9L/M, PL-5E, PL-9C
+ Beyond visual range: PL-12 / SD-10
o Air-to-surface missiles:
+ Anti-radiation missiles : MAR-1
+ Anti-ship missiles: AM-39 Exocet
+ Cruise missiles: Ra'ad ALCM


Now you saw it was behind a falcon in seconds ? I would like to see the video of that or a source. Also Current F-16s have MUCH more powerful engines the F110-GE-129 delivering 29,400 lbf (131 kN) thrust.(That also isn't the most powerful block 60s have one that provides even more)

But back to the Su-30MKI it uses an hybrid ESA radar. In the air to air mode the N011M Bars(The aircraft were operating their radars on training mode at Red Flag since the actual signals with which the Bars radar operates are kept secret.) offers a true look down, shoot down capability with a detection range of 140 km against a target with a Radar cross section (RCS) of 2 m2.

So plz by all means provide some info about the JF-17s attributes....


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pugachev's_Cobra
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulbit

 

[Dazzler]

It still carries enough punch to deter any aggression, sufficient to defend the skies. For more figures, please see the JF-17 thread.

Thanks

 

[qsaark]

How did you make that assumption that MKI beats the thunder in dogfights?

Its highly unlikely that the Su-30MKI will ever face a JF-17 in a dogfight since it doesn't have to. The objective of a Su-30MKI pilot would not be to prove something in a dogfight but to finish up his job and return home; and whether we like it or not, he has enough options at his disposal to finish up his job without getting into a dogfight.

Secondly, if a Su-30MKI pilot ever decided to engage into a dogfight with a JF-17, it will have an edge due to the thrust vectoring.

 

[gowthamraj]

Its highly unlikely that the Su-30MKI will ever face a JF-17 in a dogfight since it doesn't have to. The objective of a Su-30MKI pilot would not be to prove something in a dogfight but to finish up his job and return home; and whether we like it or not, he has enough options it his disposal to finish up his job without getting into a dogfight.

Secondly, if a Su-30MKI pilot ever decided to engage into a dogfight with a JF-17, it will have an edge due to the thrust vectoring.

no you can beat high maneuverability plane with decent configuration like jf-17, but you must have tactis that suitable for that plane and you must put ur opponent in your line. . . and make him to come front of you otherwise ,he will you

 

[jagjitnatt]

There is no way a JF-17 can beat a Su30-MKI

I don't see a comparison there. JF-17 is good but doesn't mean you can pit it against anything. It would be suitable if it was compared with bisons or mig 29 at max.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

There is no way a JF-17 can beat a Su30-MKI

Maybe in a dog fight but not in air superiority at least for now...till its upgraded further

I don't see a comparison there. JF-17 is good but doesn't mean you can pit it against anything. It would be suitable if it was compared with bisons or mig 29 at max.

Yup we should pit it against mig21 bisons..didnt one just crash 2 days back?Hell who care.

 

[jagjitnatt]

Maybe in a dog fight but not in air superiority at least for now...till its upgraded further

Its not even been a week that the plane was inducted and they're talking about upgrades. Sure block II would be better but it ain't gonna turn it into an F22 either. Upgrades are just proposed, not decided yet. So talking about upgrades is not promising for now.

Yup we should pit it against mig21 bisons..didnt one just crash 2 days back?Hell who care.

Tell me one plane in the world that doesn't crash. Let JF-17 be inducted in good numbers and then we'll see how good it is.

How are you so certain that the plane that crashed was a bison and not a regular Mig21?

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Plus the fact that AWACS not exactly Stealthy or maneuverable to avoid such a long range missile.
Don't see the PAF's plane equipped with any thing like that in near future or even in the far future

Wait, am i forgetting you are Indian?
ever heard of towed anti-missile decoy? Well Sweden is working on it.
Such long range Missiles are easy to detect and avoid because it gives you more time to react. Dont be under any delusion that with one fancy soviet era LRAAM shot it can bring ERIEYE down or it can perform all impossible feat and shot down F-16s 3-400 KM away.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Its not even been a week that the plane was inducted and they're talking about upgrades. Sure block II would be better but it ain't gonna turn it into an F22 either. Upgrades are just proposed, not decided yet. So talking about upgrades is not promising for now.

Let me tell you... JF-17 upgrade will be done before any IAF...
PAF has about 24 JF-17s out of 50 ordered for first batch. 26 more to go which will be inducted within 2 years and then we have a westernized JF-17s. MICA are no toys or darts that can be simply avoided with super sakhti MKI maneuver. and neither JF-17s need to be brought to F-22 level in order to bring down MKI.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

There is no way a JF-17 can beat a Su30-MKI

I don't see a comparison there. JF-17 is good but doesn't mean you can pit it against anything. It would be suitable if it was compared with bisons or mig 29 at max.

Why is that? certianly JF-17 is not better then MKI but to say MKI can not be brought down by JF-17 is just childish fanboy remark.