Su-30MKI & JF-17 Air Fight

[hataf]

absolutly right that's why GNAT was given the name of - sabre slayer
after 1965.
as they shot down seven sabre - if ti was not for f-108 they would have not got that gnat down.

seven sabers against how many gants

 

[notorious_eagle]

fine the Eriye finds the Flanker at a longer range and he will relay the info to the JF 17...But With wat will the JF 17 take out the MKI..? Jus detecting alone will not do the trick.

Your knowledge in this regard seems a bit flawed, i will repeat something i have repeated a thousand times. True, JF17 datalinked with an Erieye will pick up the location of MKI roughly at the same time MKI will pick up its position. Both pilots will get into position and try to take the opposing pilot from a position of strength.

To launch nd sucesfully guide its missile it has to come near and wen it comes its game over for the thunder as MKI radar can guide its own missiles before coming into the range of the Thunder's radar..

I dont know if you are aware of this but the Thunder can launch its BVRAAM and it can let the Erieye guide it in to the MKI, just like the MKI could do that with the Phalcon. But lets for arguments sake say both sides use their own radar to guide their BVRAAM's, what missile does the MKI possess that ranges more than 150km. Thunder's radar has roughly a range of 150km, thats more than enough time for it to detect the MKI and launch its missile and guide it through his radar.

The more realistic scenario is that both these aircrafts will take a shot at each other roughly around 60-70km at the same time. At this range, the proababilities of getting a kill are higher than getting a kill at their maximum ranges. So my friend, its not as easy as you make it sound. Just because it is an SU30MKI does not means it automatically wins against the JF17, a lot of other factors come into play. What will matter the most is the skill of the pilot, which ever side has better trained pilots is likely to outclass the other.

We should all write a Thank You note to IAF for introducing AWACS into the subcontinent, without them we had no answer to the MKI's radar . As they say, the bigger it is the harder it falls. Would love to see the MKI with its huge engine and RCS dodge a heat seeking missile.

 

[thunder rules]

thunder is a complete new platform its not as old and mature like mki , mki is around 18 years old i mean it was introduced in 90's and hence witnessed alot of improvement since then. now thunder is just introduced is performing really good once paf got hand on western avionics which will make thunder lot more improved fighter. currently its good light weight low cost fighter for pakistan .

 

[KS]

Your knowledge in this regard seems a bit flawed, i will repeat something i have repeated a thousand times. True, JF17 datalinked with an Erieye will pick up the location of MKI roughly at the same time MKI will pick up its position. Both pilots will get into position and try to take the opposing pilot from a position of strength.

Both the pilots will not pick up each other at the same time..that s wat im trying to say..ther MKI with the BARS radar will pick up the JF 17 way before the JF 17 pilot even knows a MKI is out there.

I dont know if you are aware of this but the Thunder can launch its BVRAAM and it can let the Erieye guide it in to the MKI, just like the MKI could do that with the Phalcon. But lets for arguments sake say both sides use their own radar to guide their BVRAAM's, what missile does the MKI possess that ranges more than 150km. Thunder's radar has roughly a range of 150km, thats more than enough time for it to detect the MKI and launch its missile and guide it through his radar.

The more realistic scenario is that both these aircrafts will take a shot at each other roughly around 60-70km at the same time. At this range, the proababilities of getting a kill are higher than getting a kill at their maximum ranges. So my friend, its not as easy as you make it sound. Just because it is an SU30MKI does not means it automatically wins against the JF17, a lot of other factors come into play. What will matter the most is the skill of the pilot, which ever side has better trained pilots is likely to outclass the other.

We should all write a Thank You note to IAF for introducing AWACS into the subcontinent, without them we had no answer to the MKI's radar . As they say, the bigger it is the harder it falls. Would love to see the MKI with its huge engine and RCS dodge a heat seeking missile.

As for ur claims that an Erieye can guide a missile ...im not aware of..so i ll try to research it nd get bak to u..
in the mean time if u can give the links to it..thx.

 

[holysaturn]

thunder is a complete new platform its not as old and mature like mki , mki is around 18 years old i mean it was introduced in 90's and hence witnessed alot of improvement since then. now thunder is just introduced is performing really good once paf got hand on western avionics which will make thunder lot more improved fighter. currently its good light weight low cost fighter for pakistan .

u r one of the intelligent members on the forum...........if it is introduced recently it doesnt mean that it has some of the recent tech and room for improvement...........look at the present tech in it no quad fly by wire,no pesa let alone aesa,negligible composites(not even titanium but just aluminium is outdated for high performance combat aircraft and used only as alloys presently.......the mirage-2000 appeared later than the f-16 but the f-16 has improved a lot compared to the mirage and still is while the mirage remains stuck in the late 1990s.........i hope u get the difference.

 

[thunder rules]

boys give some time to thunder to prove its effectiveness.. atleast 2-3 years more then the picture will be more clear abt the worth of jf 17.. currently thunder which is of just us$ 15 million per unit is a remarkable fighter for paf . and it has a great room for improvement. we should have patience for few years i am sure jf 17 will prove its worth in near future.

 

[thunder rules]

u r one of the intelligent members on the forum...........if it is introduced recently it doesnt mean that it has some of the recent tech and room for improvement...........look at the present tech in it no quad fly by wire,no pesa let alone aesa,negligible composites(not even titanium but just aluminium is outdated for high performance combat aircraft and used only as alloys presently.......the mirage-2000 appeared later than the f-16 but the f-16 has improved a lot compared to the mirage and still is while the mirage remains stuck in the late 1990s.........i hope u get the difference.

u seem to have very less knowledge abt thunder, any waz i also dont have much , thunder has been developed in accordance with the current needs of paf, why would paf will go for any thing which is obsolete?? think abt it, i am not much aware of its specifications but why would pakistan air force will introduce its first fully squadron if it was so worthless?? current jf 17 thunder unit cost is just around us$ 15 million , and under such cost jf 17 has become a complete state of the art combat fighter , of course not as good as mki but but its is of great worth to paf, that is the reason paf has developed its frist squadron so early. and paf is also trying hard to get hand of any western avionics which will enhance its performance to a great extent.

 

[holysaturn]

u seem to have very less knowledge abt thunder, any waz i also dont have much , thunder has been developed in accordance with the current needs of paf, why would paf will go for any thing which is obsolete?? think abt it, i am not much aware of its specifications but why would pakistan air force will introduce its first fully squadron if it was so worthless?? current jf 17 thunder unit cost is just around us$ 15 million , and under such cost jf 17 has become a complete state of the art combat fighter , of course not as good as mki but but its is of great worth to paf, that is the reason paf has developed its frist squadron so early. and paf is also trying hard to get hand of any western avionics which will enhance its performance to a great extent.

that is wat i tried to say the jf-17 is currently behind and it needs improvements to match even the current status of the mki or any other international platform..........obviously the mki is better in terms of tech even though it appeared early .

 

[jagjitnatt]

u seem to have very less knowledge abt thunder, any waz i also dont have much , thunder has been developed in accordance with the current needs of paf, why would paf will go for any thing which is obsolete?? think abt it, i am not much aware of its specifications but why would pakistan air force will introduce its first fully squadron if it was so worthless?? current jf 17 thunder unit cost is just around us$ 15 million , and under such cost jf 17 has become a complete state of the art combat fighter , of course not as good as mki but but its is of great worth to paf, that is the reason paf has developed its frist squadron so early. and paf is also trying hard to get hand of any western avionics which will enhance its performance to a great extent.

thunder is not obsolete. It is a great fighter, but only for the role it is intended to play. It is not the high-end for PAF. It is a replacement for the aging Mirage III/V, and in future for F7, which is why it is being made in huge number. Thunder was never meant to replace the F16. Today Thunders are new, so people believe it is advanced, but it is here to stay for 25 years, it will become old then. Also don't count too much on upgrading thing. You seem to be too optimistic about upgrades. But that remains to be seen.

F16 still is the top dog and will be replaced with a new high end in the future.

So Thunder is good for its role, F16 good for its. No comparison between the two.

 

[thunder rules]

that is wat i tried to say the jf-17 is currently behind and it needs improvements to match even the current status of the mki or any other international platform..........obviously the mki is better in terms of tech even though it appeared early .

when did i denied this?? but u have to look at other areas as well like cost and preparation time..one unit of jf 17 is only of us$ 15 million unlike mki which is around us$45 million a unit.. i think we should compare them when thunder also incur the cost as its incurred on mki. but then u indians should not underestimate this new machine of paf , it has its own worth that is the reason first squadron is fully functional for paf and some source say its better then f 16 AB in certain areas as well. jf 17 thunder has a great potential to improve its just need little time to prove its combat effectiveness to world.

 

[thunder rules]

thunder is not obsolete. It is a great fighter, but only for the role it is intended to play. It is not the high-end for PAF. It is a replacement for the aging Mirage III/V, and in future for F7, which is why it is being made in huge number. Thunder was never meant to replace the F16. Today Thunders are new, so people believe it is advanced, but it is here to stay for 25 years, it will become old then. Also don't count too much on upgrading thing. You seem to be too optimistic about upgrades. But that remains to be seen.

F16 still is the top dog and will be replaced with a new high end in the future.

So Thunder is good for its role, F16 good for its. No comparison between the two.

f 16s have been improved time to time like f 16 AB TO EF u can clearly identify the difference between f 16 variants, f 16 block 15 is a 4 gen fighter and f 16 block 52/60 are 4.5 gen with great improvements and are far superior then earlier variants of f 16. same goes for jf 17 , its in its earlier days , thunder have to travel alot its obvious with the passage of time it will get more and more mature paf wont be negligible to it. that is the reson they were after French avionics no matter its history now but in future it may open again. comon people thunder its just 2 year old baby let it be more mature. and u rightly said its basically replacing old f 7's and mirages but paf wont replace them with any thing less then a 4 gen fighter.

 

[Storm Force]

Maximum range of the SD10 is about 70km.
Maximum range of R77 vympel is 90km
su30mki carries twice as many missles as a Thunder
Mki combat radius is 1000km versis 400km for Thunder
The Electroinc warefare suite and jammers are far more advanced than anthing on Thunder
The Angle of attack is far wider due to TVC engines.
Accelartion speed of the MKI is immense of the russian flanker.

In short its a high end twin engined fighter versis a single engined small fighter. of meduim tech.

Theres only one winner regardless of Awacs or not.

If all we needed was AWACS to match high end fighters IAF mig21 BISONS WOULD STIL RULE THE ASIAN SKIES..

 

[Avatar]

Isn't it a known fact that J-11B is much superior to JF-17 ...and J-11B is a copy of Su-27 which is much inferior to Su-30, which again is much inferior to Su-30MKI.

Su-30 MKI/Su-35 > Su-30MKK > Su-30 > Su-27 > J-11B > JF-17


So that's the difference.

BTW, the Su-30MKM is the best fighter jet in the Chinese inventory.

 

[thunder rules]

Maximum range of the SD10 is about 70km.
Maximum range of R77 vympel is 90km
su30mki carries twice as many missles as a Thunder
Mki combat radius is 1000km versis 400km for Thunder
The Electroinc warefare suite and jammers are far more advanced than anthing on Thunder
The Angle of attack is far wider due to TVC engines.
Accelartion speed of the MKI is immense of the russian flanker.

In short its a high end twin engined fighter versis a single engined small fighter. of meduim tech.

Theres only one winner regardless of Awacs or not.

If all we needed was AWACS to match high end fighters IAF mig21 BISONS WOULD STIL RULE THE ASIAN SKIES..

thats the reason mki cost around 45million us$ per unit and thunder around 15million us$ per unit. mki is 3 times expensive then thunder , and few reasons are mentioned above.

 

[jagjitnatt]

f 16s have been improved time to time like f 16 AB TO EF u can clearly identify the difference between f 16 variants, f 16 block 15 is a 4 gen fighter and f 16 block 52/60 are 4.5 gen with great improvements and are far superior then earlier variants of f 16. same goes for jf 17 , its in its earlier days , thunder have to travel alot its obvious with the passage of time it will get more and more mature paf wont be negligible to it. that is the reson they were after French avionics no matter its history now but in future it may open again. comon people thunder its just 2 year old baby let it be more mature. and u rightly said its basically replacing old f 7's and mirages but paf wont replace them with any thing less then a 4 gen fighter.

The reason F16 was upgraded from time to time was that the US Air Force was using them and in huge numbers, and not just US Air Force, half the world was using this aircraft. There was a market ready for the upgrade and willing to pay for it.

US is the biggest spender in defense equipment. They can afford to upgrade every plane of theirs tens of times, but beyond US there is no other nation that offers upgrades regularly. Even Russia is not willing to upgrade their planes.

JF-17's upgrades would be a financial problem, not just for cost of parts but also for R&D. I do expect Thunder to be upgraded but just twice in its lifetime, one within 5 years from now, and the other around 2025.

It just won't be like F16's upgrade program. F16's upgrade program is the most successful upgrade program in the history of Aviation.

Gotta admit that.