Should MMRCA be Scrapped Versis TEJAS/MIRAGE2000_5

[shaktiman2010]

i am trying to send frequency to aliens so that they can come and take away shaktimaan...lolzzz coz we can not fight with him.... plzzzz do not scrap our MMRC , OUR IAF is already on the verge of obsoleteness .

I am not against MRCA or eitherways, as far as there is a sound logic behind that.

 

[angeldemon_007]

Nope. That's not how it works.

If India cancels the MRCA acquisition process, the most that will happen is, these companies will make huge hue and cry but nothing beyond that. Its Indian money and its business stupid. Period.

Also, there are ways to do this in proper manner IF India wants to. Everything is manageable, if you know how game works.

Hate to say this buddy but this is how it works. Do you remember what happened when India refused to accept french offer of mirage line ?/ Bye the if it was some smaller 500 million $ deal then also there would have been some problems. Eurocopter deal when first scraped, then also there were lot of complaints registered from the respective governments and at that time it was just 500-600 million$ worth of deal. Not to mention this deal will be the lifeline of any fighter jet in the next decade.

thats the point... but at that time we were not in a position to predict the success of 5th gen as well as LCA....

Still we should not think about 5th gen. We will get it for sure, but for projects like this, to meet a deadline is never possible. Just look at US. Also i am talking about FGFA and not AMCA. AMCA is ours, unless we have a credible partner like the one in FGFA, its very hard to tell the success rate of this projects because projects do fail and projects do get cancelled even in countries like US and Russia.

I am not in support of MRCA being scrapped but it won't change or harm anything now by doing so. Specially after first successful flight test of Kaveri in Russia.

Yeah it was a great achievement but this is not the engine which will be used in our future fighter jets. The one which will be used will be developed in JV with Snecma and negotiation on the terms is going on. This one is not suitable to power our fighter jets.

GoI is not stupid and its obvious why GoI is so comfortable with a delayed MRCA. I don't think they are careless but its something more to do with recent successes in R&D.

Look politicians never really understand the ground situation and thats why other countries have high level officers in the government but we don't have that in India. I am not saying GOI is stupid, there might be many reasons for this delay, also this project is very critical so decisions cannot be taken in hurry. I think government is worried about another scam but i trust DM. He will take decision by march 2012, otherwise our Air chief will definitely chew him alive...

Look man, i just want to summarize because it looks like only you are writing in this thread and i am against your most post...
MMRCA is needed and if it is scrapped it would very badly effect IAF. IAF has not inducted fighter jets for a long time except the Su30 whose induction began in 1996 and will end in 2017. Not to mention Su30 is an air superiority fighter, if PAF purchase any of the fighter in MMRCA with the same capabilities as offered to us, they can easily gun down Su30 in the dogfight.

We need other types of fighters also and thats why MMRCA came in light because most of our fighter jets in other categories are on the verge of retirement and the number is very huge, many fighters life is upgraded otherwise it would have been a disaster for IAF. Of course it was because of the lack of vision of IAF. IAF is now requesting to increase its sanctioned strength to 45 squadron and i think that will also be approved.

 

[shaktiman2010]

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only a fool wd like a delay in MMRCA. have u seen our combat strength levels? its dwindling day by day. we have lost 40 aircraft to accidents in last three years. the Su-30 production rate is still not satisfactory. Mig-27 and Mig-21s will be retiring by 2020. LCA is still good 3-5 yrs away from total induction. how will we make up the numbers? do u have any idea abt that.

all this talk of LCA MK2 and AMCA is still bull crap. let us first fully induct LCA and then talk abt mk2 and AMCA. if i was a vice chief in charge of operation in IAF i wd be having sleepless nights.

wat we need to do is to finalise MMRCA as soon as possible and ask vendor for faster production.

India will not collapse if MRCA is cancelled. Situation is far better now and need for MRCA is even less.

 

[GUNS-N- ROSES]

Its not about getting emotional and act in knee-jerk manner. That's what IAF is famous for.

If IAF had brains and had done long-term strategic planning, Indian aerospace R&D wouldn't be lagging behind so much today. But thanks for morons in IAF who justify diverting huge funds to imports every 5 and 10 years, since 1970's. There haven't been a single funding or initiative to involve in active manner with R&D agencies, academics from IAF in last 40 years but they have all time in world to meet and spend with foreign weapon suppliers, agents.

Someone has to put an end to all this "import or we will die" bullshit started by IAF, Army & going on since decades. They are pretending to act now by throwing peanut-size funding on LCA only because Antony is kicking their balls.

You throw $20 billion every decade on Russian, Israeli and whatever imports, delay DRDO projects by forming nexus with import lobby. This is not a characteristic of a professional and patriot airforce leadership. It is called whore-ship which is what IAF has been all these decades - short sighted and visionless. Sorry buddy, truth hurts the egos of so called "we are pure" IAF types. Period.

i totally agree with u r assessment of lack of long term planning in IAF. IAF has not supported indegenous approach agreed. but can we afford to scrapp MMRCA deal jus because we have made mistakes in past. no sir, we cannot. we cannot allow our combat levels to fall down further.

 

[GUNS-N- ROSES]

India will not collapse if MRCA is cancelled. Situation is far better now and need for MRCA is even less.

care to elaborate how ituation is far better now? our LCA is 3-5 yrs from induction and people ar taking abt mk 2 and AMCA. it will take another 10 yrs for T-50 to be inducted. so how situation is far better?

 

[shaktiman2010]

Hate to say this buddy but this is how it works. Do you remember what happened when India refused to accept french offer of mirage line ?/ Bye the if it was some smaller 500 million $ deal then also there would have been some problems. Eurocopter deal when first scraped, then also there were lot of complaints registered from the respective governments and at that time it was just 500-600 million$ worth of deal. Not to mention this deal will be the lifeline of any fighter jet in the next decade.

That's what you learn from history and your mistakes. And, that's why programs like GTRE-Kavery and AMCA are more important than MRCA.

IAF is focusing on short-term fears and these short-term fears is making them blind and every 10 years they are pushing big import deals but this is where they have totally lost long-term vision.

IAF management is in a big mess and a surgery is required.

 

[shaktiman2010]

i totally agree with u r assessment of lack of long term planning in IAF. IAF has not supported indegenous approach agreed. but can we afford to scrapp MMRCA deal jus because we have made mistakes in past. no sir, we cannot. we cannot allow our combat levels to fall down further.

My view is still the same - There is no justification for MRCA other than IAF's diarrhea of "import or we will die" after every 10-15 years.

Tell me one thing - do you think IAF would have bought Akash in huge numbers if Antony hadn't been around?

You know the answer, buddy.

 

[GUNS-N- ROSES]

u still havent answered my question abt how situation is better now?

 

[rockstarIN]

I do not see any problem now, even if MRCA delays by 6 months. We enhanced the production rate of MKI now and so far I recollect we now porduce upto 20 MKIs per year, if not 24.

 

[SR 71 Blackbird]

MRCA should not & will not be scrapped as MRCA deal will give HAL & IAF of manufacturing & operating respectively of advanced fighters.

 

[Ammyy]

Latest news MMRCA suggests Order to be delayed until 2012 March.
Knowing indians can see it Sep 2012.
This means First delivery 18 months later = 2014.
License production starts 2015-2016 earliest.

COST $10BILLION TO $15 BILLION depending on winner.

MEAN TIME

Typhoon orders been reduced by partners in favour of F35 lightening

PAK FA 2nd plane ready for Testing...

INDIA IS ABOUT TO WASTE $15 BILLION on a 4 generation MMRCA when fifth generation is around the cornor.

ITS TOO LATE WE TOOK LONG TO MAKE MMRCA HAPPEN.

Who told you its too late ????

Even world biggest navy still inducting F18 in their inventory
and please tell me how many counties presently operating 4.5 gen fighters ?????

Just go by logic yat PakFA still in development , LCA mk2 in development .... and any delay can make thing worse for our security .. what you say ??

 

[shaktiman2010]

u still havent answered my question abt how situation is better now?

India is not going to war in next 10 years. Take a chill pill.

Do you really think GoI won't push MRCA faster if it was "urgent". Delhi knows what they are doing. Our priority is economy and MRCA is not urgent at this time.

IAF and Army bosses should better utilise this peace-time to correct their historical mistakes and come up with a time-binded framework for regional security which is not "tied" to foreign weapon suppliers. But I don't think they will do that. Instead, they are queueing up another proposal for "importing" next future tank of India.

The crap never ends unless you kick it out. You have to make a call at some point and time is now because China is focused on its economy and they will not afford war at any cost in current time. That's why they are arming Pakistan to make Indian policymakers(fools in IAF) lose focus & start doing silly things like taking short-term immergency measures(which is what MRCA is) while forgetting strategic goal of maturing and speeding up domestic R&D in a big way, which has not happened.

China has successfully forced India(by pushing Pakistan) to divert huge funds towards imports(IAF's pretext of urgency) and starving, delaying the domestic R&D programmes.

There is enough proof on ground that DRDO is lacking funds to duplicate, parallelize resources and even not able to start R&D in new areas(next-generation fiber switches, diodes, lasers which require heavy investments).

Problem with India's domestic R&D is not talent. Its money and support from GoI. China knows this vulnerability of IAF and babus very well. When under pressure, Indians lose focus and start diverting focus to short-term necessities, where they shouldn't.

Current leadership is doing right thing by going slow on MRCA and pushing programs like GTRE, DRDO-AEWACS, Akash, LCH.

Also, why IAF is crying so much? They got C-17. Its not like they are totally unheard. But, we can't slow down and compromise crucial R&D for expensive stupidity like MRCA.

I would say, delay MRCA by 1 year more and divert this year's budget towards maturing Kaveri K-10(Snecma JV), and speeding up K-9's higher thrust version(for AMCA). Also, approve funds for AMCA sub-systems(which is pending) actualisation.

We also need huge funds on new Naval R&D institute. Where it will come from if MRCA, future tank(again imported?) keeps eating all money?

We need to speed things up in domestic R&D sphere and spend less time on crap like MRCA.

 

[GUNS-N- ROSES]

India is not going to war in next 10 years. Take a chill pill.

Do you really think GoI won't push MRCA faster if it was "urgent". Delhi knows what they are doing. Our priority is economy and MRCA is not urgent at this time.

IAF and Army bosses should better utilise this peace-time to correct their historical mistakes and come up with a time-binded framework for regional security which is not "tied" to foreign weapon suppliers. But I don't think they will do that. Instead, they are queueing up another proposal for "importing" next future tank of India.

The crap never ends unless you kick it out. You have to make a call at some point and time is now because China is focused on its economy and they will not afford war at any cost in current time. That's why they are arming Pakistan to make Indian policymakers(fools in IAF) lose focus & start doing silly things like taking short-term immergency measures(which is what MRCA is) while forgetting strategic goal of maturing and speeding up domestic R&D in a big way, which has not happened.

with nuclear weapons, it is highly unlikely india will go for full scale conventional war in another 30 yrs. so does it mean, we can afford to lower the strengths of our airforce.

MMRCA is getting delayed "inadvertantly"because of our peculiar babu culture and lengthy procedures. its not intentional. i have few friends in Air HQ and MOD. my view is based on their inputs.

 

[baker]

India is not going to war in next 10 years. Take a chill pill.

i will say we never going to face any war in future.... this was everybody thought before kargil war also....

i agree with ur many points.... but replacing Mig21, 27 and jaguars with LCA is not an easy task....

i think now we are in a good direction like LCA mk2 and AMCA and join co-op with russia ...

 

[GUNS-N- ROSES]

i will say we never going to face any war in future.... this was everybody thought before kargil war also....

i agree with ur many points.... but replacing Mig21, 27 and jaguars with LCA is not an easy task....

i think now we are in a good direction like LCA mk2 and AMCA and join co-op with russia ...

in all probility india will witness a LICO like kargil rather then a full scale conventional war.