IAF grappling with free fall in fighters, will have to fly upgraded MiG-21s

[karan.1970]

If operational doctrines of IAF are only designed to accommodate Indian threat preceptions then the IAF leadership has done a VERY POOR job.

They are supposed to design operational doctrines that takes into account all of India's strengths and all of India's weaknesses to counter the treat perceptions. It appears to me that they have failed miserable in their job. But don't let my factual observations discourage you from your rose tinted view of the IAF.

You are right that the counters to threat perception also need to take into account the affordability of those counters. However, independence and national integrity is a very very expensive commodity and while all of us are totally used to it, there is a continuous price that needs to be paid for that, and once you start haggling on that cost, you are on a very slippery slope..

PS: Don't pretend to teach me project Management. I happen to be a professional Program Manager with 8+ years of real time project management.

Nah! Not trying that.. Was a joke.. Relax....

 

[Mritunjaya]

NO, the IAF's operational doctrine cannot be "bent" according to anything other than the operational realities that the IAF faces. IF that were not so then no country in the world would procure expensive foreign platforms, including the Chinese.

An army background has nothing to do with it, the Armed Forces are known to be disdainful towards indigenous products, no doubt about it but the reasons aren't just limited to some afssar taking a bribe. Losing men to products which are designed appropriately but fabricated in a substandard manner is not what our jawaan fight for. So let us not try and stake out the moral high ground. For example sans the MKI the IAF today would be reduced to a force incapable of projecting the force, the only thing that stands in the way of the Chengdu MRAF and its 4 fighter divisions are the MKIs.

The LCA project suffers from various issues, funding is not an immediate issue though. The funds released for said product are in line with what the OEMs have asked for, albeit in the macrocosm the funds are not sufficient for extensive R&D. At the moment there isn't much of a choice. The LCA will take time to mature, contrary to our knackered RM it is NOT going to attain IOC this year or next year, unless the IAF Has started handing out IOCs before the TACDE is through with a platform and operational conversion has commenced. No amount of money splurged can expedite such processes, processes which exist for a reason. Educate yourself about the procedures related to such projects before deciding that your stand is correct beyond reproach.

So you are from an army background.

In the language of the prince of darkness, IAF current operational doctrines is nonsense and need to be torn up and thrown in the dustbin.

Foreign buy should be the last resort of IAF. It should happen when there are no other alternatives available. That is how most 'professional' Air Force behave. Pampered air forces on the other hand has a different take on things.

Losing men to substandard manufacturing is real. So is death due to malnutrition and hunger. Death due to curable diseases, death due to road accidents, death due to riots ........ if you still haven't figured it out, let me help you.

In India the human life is less valuable that the value of life outside India (especially compared to richer nations). Not just civilian life, but non civilian life too. (No that there should be any need to be say that explicitly). Indian Army, Air force, navy need to suck it up and live the Indian reality rather than hang on to the reality of British India and their army traditions.

There is no moral ground here .... just cold reality.

Pouring 2 billion $ into the LCA 10 years back would have resolved most of its problems by now. I happen to be in the aerospace industry. There is no problem that cannot be solved with the right amount of money. Its as simple as that. Try to wrap that idea around you head before you think your stand is beyond reproach either.

 

[Mritunjaya]

You are right that the counters to threat perception also need to take into account the affordability of those counters. However, independence and national integrity is a very very expensive commodity and while all of us are totally used to it, there is a continuous price that needs to be paid for that, and once you start haggling on that cost, you are on a very slippery slope..

Nah! Not trying that.. Was a joke.. Relax....

Nobody is haggle on the price ..... just which shop to spend it on. Do you get that ?

An inferior Indian product is still better than a superior Foreign product. Operational doctrine needs to be designed that cover up any gap due to the inferior goods. That is what IAF should be doing.

 

[Dillinger]

So you are from an army background.

In the language of the prince of darkness, IAF current operational doctrines is nonsense and need to be torn up and thrown in the dustbin.

Foreign buy should be the last resort of IAF. It should happen when there are no other alternatives available. That is how most 'professional' Air Force behave. Pampered air forces on the other hand has a different take on things.

Losing men to substandard manufacturing is real. So is death due to malnutrition and hunger. Death due to curable diseases, death due to road accidents, death due to riots ........ if you still haven't figured it out, let me help you.

In India the human life is less valuable that the value of life outside India (especially compared to richer nations). Not just civilian life, but non civilian life too. (No that there should be any need to be say that explicitly). Indian Army, Air force, navy need to suck it up and live the Indian reality rather than hang on to the reality of British India and their army traditions.

There is no moral ground here .... just cold reality.

Pouring 2 billion $ into the LCA 10 years back would have resolved most of its problems by now. I happen to be in the aerospace industry. There i no problem that cannot be solved with the right amount of money. Its as simple as that. Try to wrap that idea around you head before you think your stand is beyond reproach either.

So says a man who has never flown a sortie, who would cower in fear and scream if he came under shots fired in anger. Sure, we should let the IAF be run by yuppie managers and MBAs who think they know better. People who don't even know the composition of the enemy's ADGE much less force projection will tell the IAF how to operate. Do not presume that you know better than the men who actually serve this country unlike us keyboard warriors.

Human life may be cheap or an unwanted commodity, but a man does not face down bullets unless he knows that the system he has carried in to the field will not fail him. What do you know of soldiering or having a family member in harm's way?

There are problems which cannot be solved by throwing money at them, here is a hint please try and acquire the formulas for 3rd gen SCBs and blisk manufacturing for a 100 billion dollars. As I said 10 years or 30, the TACDE WILL NOT expedite the process because someone who knows nothing of aerial warfare is bellyaching.

 

[karan.1970]

Nobody is haggle on the price ..... just which shop to spend it on. Do you get that ?

An inferior Indian product is still better than a superior Foreign product. Operational doctrine needs to be designed that cover up any gap due to the inferior goods. That is what IAF should be doing.

I guess people much more competent than you and me (though sometimes i am not too sure of that) are making those decisions

 

[chauvunist]

How about fitting mig 21 with indigenous engines,as some people here and there claimed with 100 % surety that India is making engines for su 30 mki...

 

[Dillinger]

How about fitting mig 21 with indigenous engines,as some people here and there claimed with 100 % surety that India is making engines for su 30 mki...

Manufacturing them, yes. Cannot be adapted for a fighter of that size or class (Mig-21, Tejas), or else one engine family would suffice to power any and all platforms.

 

[Mritunjaya]

So says a man who has never flown a sortie, who would cower in fear and scream if he came under shots fired in anger. Sure, we should let the IAF be run by yuppie managers and MBAs who think they know better. People who don't even know the composition of the enemy's ADGE much less force projection will tell the IAF how to operate. Do not presume that you know better than the men who actually serve this country unlike us keyboard warriors.

Human life may be cheap or an unwanted commodity, but a man does not face down bullets unless he knows that the system he has carried in to the field will not fail him. What do you know of soldiering or having a family member in harm's way?

There are problems which cannot be solved by throwing money at them, here is a hint please try and acquire the formulas for 3rd gen SCBs and blisk manufacturing for a 100 billion dollars. As I said 10 years or 30, the TACDE WILL NOT expedite the process because someone who knows nothing of aerial warfare is bellyaching.

LOL......maybe I will cower in fear and scream. So what ? ....how is that even relevant ?


I do not presume that the men who serve in the defense forces are any better either. So far I have seen nothing so far that suggest any superiority.

Let the men face the enemy with Indian products with the belief that it will serve the intended purpose that it was built for.

So your understanding is 100 Billion $ will not help us discover SCB or blisk manufacturing ? ......so how did they original discoverers make that discovery ? ....aliens gave the technology to them ? Do you even realize the absurdity of what you are saying ? .....If I give 10 billion $ to GE or Rolls Royce they will had over the technology with a song and dance .... no need for 100 billion $.


Kindly reply with less rhetoric's and more facts

I guess people much more competent than you and me (though sometimes i am not too sure of that) are making those decisions

I am not convinced of that fact. There is nothing to suggest competence or great leadership.

 

[karan.1970]

How about fitting mig 21 with indigenous engines,as some people here and there claimed with 100 % surety that India is making engines for su 30 mki...

really? How old are you? ever tried fitting an engine of a jaguar in Toyota Mehran ?

 

[Dillinger]

LOL......maybe I will cower in fear and scream. So what ? ....how is that even relevant ?


I do not presume that the men who serve in the defense forces are any better either. So far I have seen nothing so far that suggest any superiority.

Let the men face the enemy with Indian products with the belief that it will serve the intended purpose that it was built for.

So your understanding is 100 Billion $ will not help us discover SCB or blisk manufacturing ? ......so how did they original discoverers make that discovery ? ....aliens gave the technology to them ? Do you even realize the absurdity of what you are saying ? .....If I give 10 billion $ to GE or Rolls Royce they will had over the technology with a song and dance .... no need for 100 billion $.


Kindly reply with less rhetoric's and more facts



I am not convinced of that fact. There is nothing to suggest competence or great leadership.

A 100 billion dollars sans a paltry transonic wind tunnel will most certainly NOT provide results. Nor do we have the capability at the moment, unless someone has already certified the bolted blade fans- not done till date.

Why don't you educate us on the scope creep, issues that beset the Tejas. Being a part of the aeronautical industry must give you some special insight, lets have it. After all you must be cognizant of the technical details to be so sure that throwing money at it will help.

You doubt the courage of our jawaans when you yourself can only beat your chest in a riot mob, running with your tail between your legs the moment the first ghazi decides to go boom near you. No where does the IA's charter or its Jawaan's oath state that they must engage the enemy with Indian systems, feel free to try and amend said oath. Although I suspect a dressing down from even a JCO will leave you week kneed and wailing.

 

[chauvunist]

really? How old are you? ever tried fitting an engine of a jaguar in Toyota Mehran ?

Damn Man How old are You...seriously???

If one can make an engine for BMW then making one for toyota mehran shouldn't be a problem....Kapish???

 

[Mritunjaya]

A 100 billion dollars sans a paltry transonic wind tunnel will most certainly NOT provide results. Nor do we have the capability at the moment, unless someone has already certified the bolted blade fans- not done till date.

Why don't you educate us on the scope creep, issues that beset the Tejas. Being a part of the aeronautical industry must give you some special insight, lets have it. After all you must be cognizant of the technical details to be so sure that throwing money at it will help.

You doubt the courage of our jawaans when you yourself can only beat your chest in a riot mob, running with your tail between your legs the moment the first ghazi decides to go boom near you. No where does the IA's charter or its Jawaan's oath state that they must engage the enemy with Indian systems, feel free to try and amend said oath. Although I suspect a dressing down from even a JCO will leave you week kneed and wailing.

More rhetoric and insults ............this is just pathetic. Let us keep your hero worship to your bedroom, shall we ?


10 Billion $ will buy you the entire technology for a 3 gen aircraft engine including blade manufacturing etc...If you don't understand such simple realities then there is nothing more to be said. Everything in this world is open for negotiation and is available for the right price.

Scope creep is something IAF is guilty off. This is exactly the failure of IAF leadership I was talking about. Amazing you cannot see such obvious realities. What causes this selective blindness ?

I do not work on the Tejas kid.

BTW here is something for you,

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-pape...nnel-facility-in-hyderabad/article3347295.ece

..now tell me 450 crore is how many million $ ??

 

[karan.1970]

Damn Man How old are You...seriously???

If one can make an engine for BMW then making one for toyota mehran shouldn't be a problem....Kapish???

Not really dude.. Specially since its license production. India does not own the technology basis which its manufacturing the engines for the Su 30. We can not legally use that technology to create our own engines for Mig 21s. There is something called Intellectual Property you know

 

[chauvunist]

Not really dude.. Specially since its license production. India does not own the technology basis which its manufacturing the engines for the Su 30. We can not legally use that technology to create our own engines for Mig 21s. There is something called Intellectual Property you know

And that would be precisely called Assembling ....My POV was based on claims of some indian members that India is indeginously manufacturing Engines...

 

[karan.1970]

And that would be precisely called Assembling ....My POV was based on claims of some indian members that India is indeginously manufacturing Engines...

No. That would definitely not be called assembling. That would be called licensed manufacturing using the blueprints provided by the IP owning company. Technically, you can use the same technology to make an engine of your own (the things China is accused of a lot of times), but ethically & legally you can not.

Assembly is when you get all the manufactured parts from the IP owning company, and you simply assemble them(join them together). Like a lot of DIY tables and shelves that you can pick off walmart.