IAF grappling with free fall in fighters, will have to fly upgraded MiG-21s

[Hyperion]

See ya dude, you shouldn't have disrespected others. Learn manners before you come here next time, be diplomatic and follow the norms of this forum.

I can see why Indo-guy value your post

 

[janon]

I don't think that it has been put off. This could be a standard last minute scare tactic to squeeze a few additional techs from the French. It's normal and wise to play such a game, if indeed that's what's going on.

If anything, it seems like it will have the opposite effect - showing the French how desperate we are, and letting them charge us more or withhold crucial technology.

Frankly, the MoD and its procurement policies have to be revamped. Something is rotten here, if it takes as long to decide to buy a jet as to design one. In the time that the MRCA saga has been going on for, many countries could have designed and tested a new fighter.

 

[Indo-guy]

I can see why Indo-guy value your post



..........I will be doing that. I do appreciated unsolicited advice

@Mritunjaya I don't take offence to your words ....similarly you should forget what @Hyperion said to you and bury the hatchet !!!

This is my sincere request to you !

Don't perpetuate the enmity unnecessarily ....


I hope you are here to make friends and not enemies ....

 

[Hyperion]

I don't get it. Where lies the problem actually? I had thought that deal had been finalized, all the little tit-bits had been ironed out. Now where is the hiccup? Are the French forcing GoI to chose one of their own preferred partners for local production, or is it the other way around - who is playing hardball here?

If anything, it seems like it will have the opposite effect - showing the French how desperate we are, and letting them charge us more or withhold crucial technology.

Frankly, the MoD and its procurement policies have to be revamped. Something is rotten here, if it takes as long to decide to buy a jet as to design one. In the time that the MRCA saga has been going on for, many countries could have designed and tested a new fighter.

 

[Mritunjaya]

@Mritunjaya I don't take offence to your words ....similarly you should forget what @Hyperion said to you and bury the hatchet !!!

This is my sincere request to you !

Don't perpetuate the enmity unnecessarily ....

I hope you are here to make friends and not enemies ....

............................................

 

[Iggy]

If anything, it seems like it will have the opposite effect - showing the French how desperate we are, and letting them charge us more or withhold crucial technology.

Frankly, the MoD and its procurement policies have to be revamped. Something is rotten here, if it takes as long to decide to buy a jet as to design one. In the time that the MRCA saga has been going on for, many countries could have designed and tested a new fighter.

@janon, I guess the ball is in our court now.. Since the French air force cut down the number of air crafts they wanted, Dassault is eager for this deal.. With right amount of pressure we can get more from this deal..

 

[Indo-guy]

Rafale /MMRCA will only bring interim relief to IAF woes ....( despite all hiccups , I believe deal will be done by next year after general elections )

LCA Mk II will have to compliment our fighter jet strengths .

But what about the long term planning ....?


IAF needs to be more careful ....situation like current one should not be brought in first place .


with all time low compliment of Fighter jet squadrons , how can IAF be prepared for so called " Two Front War "

When military says they are prepared for any eventuality ....how can we have confidence in their assurances with such state of IAF ???

 

[Iggy]

Rafale /MMRCA will only bring interim relief to IAF woes ....( despute all hiccups , I believe deal will be done by next year after general elections )

LCA Mk II will have to compliment ....

But what about the long term planning ....?

PAk FA and MCA are the long term plans of IAF and also there is a large scope in upgrading the Rafale .. Its just my guess, may be some experts can reply.

 

[janon]

I don't get it. Where lies the problem actually? I had thought that deal had been finalized, all the little tit-bits had been ironed out. Now where is the hiccup? Are the French forcing GoI to chose one of their own preferred partners for local production, or is it the other way around - who is playing hardball here?

Nobody knows, since these negotiations are not in public domain. All we know is that the IAF made a desperate plea for medium weight MRCAs in the late 90s, when they foresaw having to replace hundreds of migs. In 2001 they formally floated a request to bidders. It took about 5 years to test every fighter in that category available on the world market. Finally they decided on the Rafale. It has been nearly two years since then, and they are still negotiating on costs, who will produce which parts where, and so on. Only the bureaucrats in the ministry know what the hold up is, or if there is a single holdup (as opposed to this being the way of life for government arms). It is all done in top secret, with only a select few bureaucrats being privy to the details. We can only guess.

@janon, I guess the ball is in our court now.. Since the French air force cut down the number of air crafts they wanted, Dassault is eager for this deal.. With right amount of pressure we can get more from this deal..

Dassault is eager, but the IAF is desperate. Remember, the 8 squadrons of MKIs are all that they have, to wage an offensive war into enemy territory. Pretty soon, with other squadrons being depleted, these MKIs will also be the only ones they have to do point defence and interception and everything else. The IAF is seriously short of modern fighters, make no mistake. The MRCAs and LCAs were needed as of day before yesterday.

 

[Iggy]

Nobody knows, since these negotiations are not in public domain. All we know is that the IAF made a desperate plea for medium weight MRCAs in the late 90s, when they foresaw having to replace hundreds of migs. In 2001 they formally floated a request to bidders. It took about 5 years to test every fighter in that category available on the world market. Finally they decided on the Rafale. It has been nearly two years since then, and they are still negotiating on costs, who will produce which parts where, and so on. Only the bureaucrats in the ministry know what the hold up is, or if there is a single holdup (as opposed to this being the way of life for government arms). It is all done in top secret, with only a select few bureaucrats being privy to the details. We can only guess.

The funny part is Rafale was not at all in the picture when the bid was floated.. We were considering MIrages at that time.. The time taken was so long that the French withdrawn the Mirages from the competition and put Rafale instead..

Dassault is eager, but the IAF is desperate. Remember, the 8 squadrons of MKIs are all that they have, to wage an offensive war into enemy territory. Pretty soon, with other squadrons being depleted, these MKIs will also be the only ones they have to do point defence and interception and everything else. The IAF is seriously short of modern fighters, make no mistake. The MRCAs and LCAs were needed as of day before yesterday.

You did forgot about MIG 29 UPG's.. It can be used as point defence along with MIrages for some time.. But I do agree that we needed new aircrafts ASAP.. But cant we use SAM's as point defense till the new air crafts come? I mean @Oscar put forwarded this idea in some other thread.. I think it is one the best option we currently have..

 

[janon]

The funny part is Rafale was not at all in the picture when the bid was floated.. We were considering MIrages at that time.. The time taken was so long that the French withdrawn the Mirages from the competition and put Rafale instead..

That's why I said that we have to evolve a new policy for defence procurement. If we had 126 mirage-2000-5s in our arsenal right now, we would have been a lot more comfortable to wait for the LCA and FGFA to arrive. Instead they had this whole MRCA tamasha which, true to sarkari-babu style, has yet not ended. The first Rafale will arrive 20 years after the IAF desperately asked for an interim solution to depleting fighter strength. It doesn't take an Einstein to realize something is rotten to the core.

 

[Indo-guy]

The funny part is Rafale was not at all in the picture when the bid was floated.. We were considering MIrages at that time.. The time taken was so long that the French withdrawn the Mirages from the competition and put Rafale instead..






You did forgot about MIG 29 UPG's.. It can be used as point defence along with MIrages for some time.. But I do agree that we needed new aircrafts ASAP.. But cant we use SAM's as point defense till the new air crafts come? I mean @Oscar put forwarded this idea in some other thread.. I think it is one the best option we currently have..

Can India buy more ' ready to fly ' Rafael jets off the shelf ....to maintain operational preparedness ???

SAM's can't really replace role of aircrafts ....can they ?

 

[Iggy]

Can India buy more ' ready to fly ' Rafael jets off the shelf ....to maintain operational preparedness ???

Mate, am no expert in this, but French did offer 40 rafales off the shelf as stop gap..

France reiterates offer of 40 Rafale fighters to India : Latest Headlines, News - India Today

 

[Indo-guy]

Mate, am no expert in this, but French did offer 40 rafales off the shelf as stop gap..

France reiterates offer of 40 Rafale fighters to India : Latest Headlines, News - India Today

I think it would be a good idea ! Afterall we have to maintain balance between needs of defense preparedness as well as needs of defense industry .

What difference will it make if instead of 140 ...only 100 Rafael's are manufactured in India by HAL ?

 

[janon]

You did forgot about MIG 29 UPG's.. It can be used as point defence along with MIrages for some time.. But I do agree that we needed new aircrafts ASAP.. But cant we use SAM's as point defense till the new air crafts come? I mean @Oscar put forwarded this idea in some other thread.. I think it is one the best option we currently have..

Point defence, yes. But not for an offensive air campaign, not by themselves. And also consider the availability rates of the mig 29s, as opposed to more modern aircrafts like Rafale or Gripen. For a short duration high intensity conflict, we need a lot more aircrafts than we currently have. Our present fleet can hold off and even get the better of Pakistan but China is a wholly different story. Look at the number of air regiments they have in the Tibet mil region alone. To counter that, we have planned to dedicate a measly three squadron of MKIs.

There is no question about it, we need those Rafales very, very soon.

As for SAMs - the lack of enough SAM systems is another story in itself.