Should MMRCA be Scrapped Versis TEJAS/MIRAGE2000_5

[baker]

MMRCA a foolish idea. hm, i dont think so. i agree that IAF lacks long term planning.

thats the point... but at that time we were not in a position to predict the success of 5th gen as well as LCA....

 

[shaktiman2010]

I am not in support of MRCA being scrapped but it won't change or harm anything now by doing so. Specially after first successful flight test of Kaveri in Russia.

GoI is not stupid and its obvious why GoI is so comfortable with a delayed MRCA. I don't think they are careless but its something more to do with recent successes in R&D.

If you asked me 5 years back "Should we scrap MRCA?", I would say "YES. We must scrap it."
If you ask me now, I will say, "No, let's see what's on offer."

JV takes a different meaning when you are 90% self-reliant in aero-engine technology. Your leverage is higher and you can negotiate better. So, I think there is a big logic why GoI delayed MRCA agreements, over 5 years. I think they knew GTRE is very close to maturisation. Now, it seems it played out very well.

These things of maturing your own technology plays a big part, on foreign suppliers's minds in implicit ways, even if they won't recognize so in public. If we had signed MRCA 4 years back, it would been a weak agreement not in our favour. Today, thanks to GTRE we are in better position to negotiate a better MRCA agreement(if we go ahead with it).

 

[shaktiman2010]

All those noises you often hear in western and Indian media about "LCA is failure, Kaveri is failure" are part of pressurising tactics, which helps these foreign weapon suppliers in shaping and carving out a better negotiating posture in MRCA like agreements.

Its a business rule. You NEED to be stronger to turn agreements in your favour. That's what they try to do, by playing "LCA is failure" card. Only weak will fall for it, Indians won't and now weapon suppliers are slowly realising this and that's why you see new AESA being on offer with passing time.

Only GoI knows inside status of Kaveri programme and if you read signs, they are good. The more GoI delays MRCA, better the news is!

 

[baker]

I am not in support of MRCA being scrapped but it won't change or harm anything now by doing so. Specially after first successful flight test of Kaveri in Russia.

GoI is not stupid and its obvious why GoI is so comfortable with a delayed MRCA. I don't think they are careless but its something more to do with recent successes in R&D.

If you asked me 5 years back "Should we scrap MRCA?", I would say "YES. We must scrap it."
If you ask me now, I will say, "No, let's see what's on offer."

JV takes a different meaning when you are 90% self-reliant in aero-engine technology. Your leverage is higher and you can negotiate better. So, I think there is a big logic why GoI delayed MRCA agreements, over 5 years. I think they knew GTRE is very close to maturisation. Now, it seems it played out very well.

These things of maturing your own technology plays a big part, on foreign suppliers's minds in implicit ways, even if they won't recognize so in public. If we had signed MRCA 4 years back, it would been a weak agreement not in our favour. Today, thanks to GTRE we are in better position to negotiate a better MRCA agreement(if we go ahead with it).

and one more reason GOI delaying the deal may be due to HAL production capacity.. it is even struggling tor LCA production.... what if MMRCA deal is sanctioned now and how and where they can accomade the MMRCA production ....
and at this stage if we try to accomade both production paralely... this will surely affect our LCA

 

[shaktiman2010]

Yes, DRDO will eventally do that last 10% but HAL's speed is still a concern.

Babus should focus on solving muck and issues inside HAL and other production entities like OFB, instead of wasting their time on chai-biskoot with foreign weapon suppliers. This is what will make India strong, not MRCA.

 

[shaktiman2010]

Same is the case with IAF. They waste energy in wrong places(offices of foreign weapon suppliers). Instead, they should focus on improving their interfaces with private industry in India and encourage them to take up long-term R&D now which takes decades to show results.

Unless IAF moves its own lazy a$*, nobody is going to come to them and solve their problems. They are always stuck in un-ending "import" loop. Hopefully, antony will push their a$*es in right path.

 

[angeldemon_007]

MRCA was a foolish idea floated by IAF to begin with and Antony knows this. MRCA is not a priority for him.

If IAF has so much money, they should better fund and encourage R&D within Indian universities. IAF lacks long-term planning. What they need to show is, little more faith(and money) in Indian engineers and talent.

My dear friend then who will replace the ageing Mi21 and Mi27. The sanctioned strength of IAF is 39.5 squadron and right now it is 33. If we don't induct MMRCA quickly, soon our IAF fleet will be smaller than even Pakistan Air Force.
Encouragement to RnD, good...did you listened to last years budget ??/ Here's a highlight for you...

INDIA BUDGET-Deduction on R&D raised to 200 pct | Reuters

It was an unprecedented step. Although agreed RnD is needed more but work is going on. IN and IAF are ready to put their money on AMCA which is a great move. NLCA has received money from IN. Government is setting up a separate defense technology commission. But all those are separate issues which i agree has to be handled.

see i agreed MMRCA was not required.. but see this MMRCA is floated few years back , at that time there was no guarantee that 5th gen will be in IAF also LCA was also in bad shape.. considering the situation it was necessary to float MMRCA tender...

IAF has just placed the order of 40 odd LCA. They are waiting for LCA mk2 and let me assure you if they don't like it they will force MOD to buy something like gripen. I also agree, if LCA mk2 is not better than gripen or equivalent to gripen, then i don't see point in purchasing it. Congrats to ADA on developing it but that does not means that our AF should be forced to buy it, whether it hurts someones feelings or not. Just look at Russia, they produced Su30 and now they almost build Mig35 but that does not means that they will induct it.

As far as 5th gen fighters are concerned,its a difficult project and a delay of 5-6 years is also fine looking at the criticality of the product. IAF knows this and they does not trust HAL. Forget about that, even if HAL produces it on time, it will be by the end of the decade and by that time PAF would have requested 1 or 2 more batches of F16 for fighting terrorists and not to mention the new Chinese fighters which they are purchasing.

 

[Markus]

I would go with 50 affitional Mirage 2000-5 order taking fleet to 100.

stick to tejas programme ie 120 fighters mk1/mk2 by 2020#

260 su30mki & 60 mig29smt.

SPEND THE $10 BILLION ON PAK FA & START THE AMCA now that TEJAS has reached ioc.

$100m each with full weapons for typhoon /rafael is far too much.

Time and again you come up with such wierd posts.

The Mirage production line cannot be opened. The only option is to upgrade the existing ones and buy second hand planes from outside.

The first flight of AMCA is expected in 2017 so its induction will take atleast 2020 or even 2022.

What do expect the IAF to do in the meantime?

 

[GUNS-N- ROSES]

All those noises you often hear in western and Indian media about "LCA is failure, Kaveri is failure" are part of pressurising tactics, which helps these foreign weapon suppliers in shaping and carving out a better negotiating posture in MRCA like agreements.

Its a business rule. You NEED to be stronger to turn agreements in your favour. That's what they try to do, by playing "LCA is failure" card. Only weak will fall for it, Indians won't and now weapon suppliers are slowly realising this and that's why you see new AESA being on offer with passing time.

Only GoI knows inside status of Kaveri programme and if you read signs, they are good. The more GoI delays MRCA, better the news is!

only a fool wd like a delay in MMRCA. have u seen our combat strength levels? its dwindling day by day. we have lost 40 aircraft to accidents in last three years. the Su-30 production rate is still not satisfactory. Mig-27 and Mig-21s will be retiring by 2020. LCA is still good 3-5 yrs away from total induction. how will we make up the numbers? do u have any idea abt that.

all this talk of LCA MK2 and AMCA is still bull crap. let us first fully induct LCA and then talk abt mk2 and AMCA. if i was a vice chief in charge of operation in IAF i wd be having sleepless nights.

wat we need to do is to finalise MMRCA as soon as possible and ask vendor for faster production.

 

[GUNS-N- ROSES]

The guys talk abt scrapping MMRCA deal without having an iota knowledge on strategic affairs. sad.

 

[madooxno9]

i am trying to send frequency to aliens so that they can come and take away shaktimaan...lolzzz coz we can not fight with him.... plzzzz do not scrap our MMRC , OUR IAF is already on the verge of obsoleteness .

 

[shaktiman2010]

[/B]

only a fool wd like a delay in MMRCA. have u seen our combat strength levels? its dwindling day by day. we have lost 40 aircraft to accidents in last three years. the Su-30 production rate is still not satisfactory. Mig-27 and Mig-21s will be retiring by 2020. LCA is still good 3-5 yrs away from total induction. how will we make up the numbers? do u have any idea abt that.

all this talk of LCA MK2 and AMCA is still bull crap. let us first fully induct LCA and then talk abt mk2 and AMCA. if i was a vice chief in charge of operation in IAF i wd be having sleepless nights.

wat we need to do is to finalise MMRCA as soon as possible and ask vendor for faster production.

Its not about getting emotional and act in knee-jerk manner. That's what IAF is famous for.

If IAF had brains and had done long-term strategic planning, Indian aerospace R&D wouldn't be lagging behind so much today. But thanks for morons in IAF who justify diverting huge funds to imports every 5 and 10 years, since 1970's. There haven't been a single funding or initiative to involve in active manner with R&D agencies, academics from IAF in last 40 years but they have all time in world to meet and spend with foreign weapon suppliers, agents.

Someone has to put an end to all this "import or we will die" bullshit started by IAF, Army & going on since decades. They are pretending to act now by throwing peanut-size funding on LCA only because Antony is kicking their balls.

You throw $20 billion every decade on Russian, Israeli and whatever imports, delay DRDO projects by forming nexus with import lobby. This is not a characteristic of a professional and patriot airforce leadership. It is called whore-ship which is what IAF has been all these decades - short sighted and visionless. Sorry buddy, truth hurts the egos of so called "we are pure" IAF types. Period.

 

[shaktiman2010]

Frankly speaking, MRCA is one of the biggest stupidity ever floated(since Russian-imports era) by IAF and import hungry-types in babudom.

 

[shaktiman2010]

The fact is, IAF won't mind inducting 10% less powered Gripen but won't buy 10% less powered LCA because they have a deep rooted bias against Indian made stuff.

Akash was ordered in big numbers only because of presence of antony.

 

[MilSpec]

India's economy can easily afford spending around 15-18 billion dollars on 200 odd typhoons/rafales so all this fuss about money is useless...

IMO ..we should opt for either of these two configurations 70 EFT multiroles and 150 MIG 35MKI with TVC in primary air supremacy roles and secondary multirole configuration. Or 75 rafales and 90 EFT"S

Ensure that MKI is upgraded to BARS AESA,

Eventually have 3 different AESA's Phazatron, Bars and CAPTOR AESA operational by 2016.

It is unfortunate that the MOD wont split up the MMRCA .. we could have had better balance with two different platforms ... eventually we will be dropping Mig 27's and Jags .