Should INDIA rethink on MMRCA when Chinese buy SU-35

[janon]

janon i really wonder fron wr did u came up with this...When did MoD said its all speculation? Its in all public domain if had read 2009 news papers or seached on Internet about it.It was a HEADLINE in most of all news papers that RAFALE officially been rejected by MoD after it dint meet its requirments.

Thursday, April 16, 2009
First Blood! Rafale ejected from MMRCA!
It's first blood in the Indian Air Force's Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition. And the first to bite the dust (also the one who probably needed the contract more than any of the other six contenders) is the French Rafale, developed and built by Dassault Aviation. The never-before-exported fighter has been counting immeasurably on the long and deep ties that its maker, Dassault, has shared with the Indian Air Force and government, especially the warm, fuzzy relationship it has made possible with the Mirage-2000s. But it's official now. Dassault's technical bid did not make the IAF's cut -- the reasons will come out in detail over the next few days. Dassault hasn't made an official comment on the news just yet (don't know if they've been officially intimated yet by the MoD about the down-select). That's got to hurt. I've shot off a few questions to the Dassault people in Saint Cloud. Let's see what they say. Watch this space.

The French media, which has (obviously) pounced onto the story is talking about how the elimination is just another sign of just what a cursed programme the Rafale is and how a possible Arab contract is its only hope. Well, that's what they said about the MMRCA contract, so.

For good measure, I've commissioned a column on "Rafale: First Blood" from an aviation watcher in Paris who has worked previously with the Rafale programme. That should be up here tomorrow. Stay tuned.

Posted by Shiv Aroor at 8:11 PM Livefist

Yes I know it was reported by the media. But the reports were DENIED by official sources. And logically also it doesn't make sense that Rafale would be the first to be rejected technically, when F-16 and Gripen and Mig-35 are all indisputably inferior. The media simply reported a rumor without confirming with the MoD or IAF. They have done that on many occasions, two of which I mentioned earlier.

 

[surya kiran]

Tune apni maa se bhi uska source maanga tha kya?

post reported. Tone down you rhetoric and language.

 

[hkmarine55]

janon plz post the source of IAF statement .. I cant find it anywhere.From where u got this source ?

janon dude for ur kind imformation RAFALE was rejected and later re-entered the deal please post the source where MoD said its was false imformation.I cant find anything u said so far

 

[Abingdonboy]

janon i really wonder fron wr did u came up with this...When did MoD said its all speculation? Its in all public domain if had read 2009 news papers or seached on Internet about it.It was a HEADLINE in most of all news papers that RAFALE officially been rejected by MoD after it dint meet its requirments.

Thursday, April 16, 2009
First Blood! Rafale ejected from MMRCA!
It's first blood in the Indian Air Force's Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition. And the first to bite the dust (also the one who probably needed the contract more than any of the other six contenders) is the French Rafale, developed and built by Dassault Aviation. The never-before-exported fighter has been counting immeasurably on the long and deep ties that its maker, Dassault, has shared with the Indian Air Force and government, especially the warm, fuzzy relationship it has made possible with the Mirage-2000s. But it's official now. Dassault's technical bid did not make the IAF's cut -- the reasons will come out in detail over the next few days. Dassault hasn't made an official comment on the news just yet (don't know if they've been officially intimated yet by the MoD about the down-select). That's got to hurt. I've shot off a few questions to the Dassault people in Saint Cloud. Let's see what they say. Watch this space.

The French media, which has (obviously) pounced onto the story is talking about how the elimination is just another sign of just what a cursed programme the Rafale is and how a possible Arab contract is its only hope. Well, that's what they said about the MMRCA contract, so.

For good measure, I've commissioned a column on "Rafale: First Blood" from an aviation watcher in Paris who has worked previously with the Rafale programme. That should be up here tomorrow. Stay tuned.

Posted by Shiv Aroor at 8:11 PM Livefist

Mate in retrospect this is clearly another (in a long line) of BS Indian media reports. The fact is that the IAF/MoD officially never confirmed these reports and the fact is that the reports of the Rafale being eliminated from the competition so early based on certain failings has proven to be complelty inconsistent with how the MMRCA selection process was undertaken. The fact is after the April 2011 "down-select" we learnt the "losers" (-35,SH,-16,Gripen) had all failed in one way or another at different stages of trails yet they were allowed to remain in the competion until this "down-select" so kicking out competitors for failings is not how the MMRCA was run.

 

[hkmarine55]

Abingdonboy please post the source of IAF statement.I cant get from anywhere. Even now new news are The Indian Air Force (IAF) is coming up with a contingency plan to procure fighter jets to maintain its operational preparedness in case the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal worth over $15 billion to procure 126 Rafale jets does not go through.

The backup plan will see the IAF opting for 50 more Sukhoi-30 MKI jets to be bought off the shelf from Russia

Defence Minister A K Antony recently said even after the contract negotiations are over, the deal will have to go through six to seven stages of vetting before the Cabinet Committee on Security(CCS) headed by the Prime Minister and the Union Cabinet gives its approval.

Sources also said if the deal does not go through, the Government will not negotiate with the second lowest bidder Eurofighter (consortium of Germany, France, Italy and UK). Incidentally, reports indicated that Germany will ask the Indian political leadership to reconsider Eurofighter’s bid when Prime Minister Manmohan Singh holds talks with German Chancellor Angela Merkel this week in Berlin.

As regards the IAF preferring SU-30s to meet any contingency, sources said HAL is already manufacturing these jets under transfer of technology pact with Russia and has requisite expertise and facilities for maintenance of the sophisticated planes.

WHERE IS THE SOURCE FOR UR CLAIM?

 

[ExtraOdinary]

Time to close down this thread I 'spose

 

[帅的一匹]

China is not counting on SU35, we just make it as a reference. J10B will keep improving to take on Rafale. China will have hundreds of J10b when the first licensed Rafale off the production line in India.

 

[hkmarine55]

Mate in retrospect this is clearly another (in a long line) of BS Indian media reports. The fact is that the IAF/MoD officially never confirmed these reports and the fact is that the reports of the Rafale being eliminated from the competition so early based on certain failings has proven to be complelty inconsistent with how the MMRCA selection process was undertaken. The fact is after the April 2011 "down-select" we learnt the "losers" (-35,SH,-16,Gripen) had all failed in one way or another at different stages of trails yet they were allowed to remain in the competion until this "down-select" so kicking out competitors for failings is not how the MMRCA was run.

DUDE what kind of BS u r talking about i dont know.

Rafale to re-enter race for Indian MMRCA

Posted On: May 21, 2009


Rafale Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft.
NEW DELHI (BNS): French fighter aircraft Rafale is back in contention for the 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) which India seeks to acquire.

The decision to allow Rafale to take part in the Indian Air force�s bid to acquire MMRCA was taken at a meeting of the Defence Procurement Board here on Monday, media reports on Thursday said.

Earlier Rafale, made by Dassault, was declared out of the race after technical evaluations. The Technical Evaluation Committee had made the recommendation, as Dassault did not provide information on some equipment and add-ons that the IAF wanted to be in the aircraft, The Hindu reported quoting sources in the Defence Ministry.

However, the Defence Procurement Board, which met under the chairmanship of Defence Secretary Vijay Singh, decided not to accept the recommendation. The Board felt the French firm should also get a look-in when the Indian Air Force conducted field trials over the next few months, it said.

After the news emerged in April, the French launched a fresh bid. Many of the issues that remained unresolved were since then addressed, the sources said.

Now that the parameters set out in the technical evaluations had been complied with, it was felt that Rafale should be allowed to take part in the bid, along with Boeing�s F/A18, Lockheed Martin�s F-16, Saab�s Gripen, MIG-35 and Eurofighter Typhoon.

China is not counting on SU35, we just make it as a reference. J10B will keep improving to take on Rafale. China will have hundreds of J10b when the first licensed Rafale off the production line in India.

Ahhh comon now.R u saying Chinese want to buy 40+ Su35 with follow on Agreement for a fun ? Chinese engine has a long way to go.Even when china test flown 5th gen fighter it bought 4++ gen fighter ? It dosnt make sense at all.

Time to close down this thread I 'spose

Dude Please go through this.

Rafale’s dramatic re-entry another Choppergate?
Published March 7, 2013 | By admin

SOURCE: NEW INDIAN EXPRESS


Dassault Aviation, the French company whose Rafale aircraft has been selected by the ministry of defence as the preferred bidder, had been ousted from the contract in the beginning, but then it made a dramatic re-entry to emerge at the top.

Rafale finally edged out the American F-16 and F-18, Russian MiG-35 and Swedish Gripen on the basis of technical performance and the pan-European Consortium’s Eurofighter Typhoon on life-cycle costs.

Reportedly, in April 2009 Rafale had been officially knocked out during the technical evaluation stage of the MMRCA for non-compliance. The aircraft had been barred from taking part in the next stage of the evaluation process, i.e., the field trials. As was reported at the time, there were gaps in the technical bid submitted by Dassault. The ministry of defence queried the French company seeking clarification. However, not convinced by the incomplete responses it received, the ministry excluded Dassault from further participation in the tender.

Then, a month later, news appeared of Rafale being back in the race. A defence ministry official was quoted as saying, “Since it was only paper evaluation and the French company Dassault Aviation has now supplied the missing answers, the Defence Procurement Board has decided to allow Rafale to take part in the actual field trials.”

At the time, much was not made of Dassault’s sudden change of fortune. However, the question was, why would a company leave gaps in its bid and then respond callously to official clarification for a tender widely regarded as the mother of all defence deals? More importantly, what prompted the ministry of defence to make a U-turn and reverse its decision of disqualifying Dassault?

Choppergate has brought these questions back in focus as it raises questions over Dassault’s re-entry into the MMRCA deal. How did Dassault Aviation fly back into the race after being ejected initially for technical non-compliance. As it turns out, Choppergate has an uncanny similarity to MMRCA.

Incidentally, almost three years after the comeback and just weeks after it emerged as the lowest bidder (L-1) in January 2012, media reports appeared of two senior defence ministry officials disagreeing with the cost calculations leading to Rafale’s selection. Both officials were part of the high-level Contract Negotiation Committee (CNC) constituted by the Ministry of Defence to negotiate MMRCA.

Apparently, some information was missing in the French company’s bid forcing CNC to make assumptions. The contention of the dissenting officials was that no one had validated those assumptions. Both officials initially refused to counter sign the calculations but later surrendered after noting their reservations on the file.

This was followed by a letter from then Rajya Sabha member, MV Mysura Reddy to defence minister Antony alleging irregularities in the selection process. Reddy sought a review of the whole procedure. Antony responded by ordering an enquiry, which later gave a green signal.

However, now Choppergate has thrown a fresh challenge in the speedy conclusion of MMRCA, which has been termed as the ‘highest priority’ acquisition by the chief of Air Force.

Determined to not let MMRCA become another scandal, Antony has promised multiple levels of scrutiny by different government agencies including the Central Vigilance Commission before the deal moves to the finance ministry and finally the Cabinet Committee on Security for approval.

This vetting is bound to add to the time it will take to resolve the outstanding issues. According to highly placed sources, cost inflation by Dassault and its unwillingness to transfer high technology and reservations against a lead role for Hindustan Aeronautics in the local production of 108 aircraft are some of the sticky points that have raised further issues.

In an indication that signatures on the contract were still some distance away, Dassault Aviation chief executive Eric Trappier reportedly said in February at Aero India, “It’s not surprising that it takes a bit of time.”

“It would be ideal to sign it in 2013,” he added.

 

[Abingdonboy]

DUDE what kind of BS u r talking about i dont know.

Rafale to re-enter race for Indian MMRCA

Posted On: May 21, 2009


Rafale Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft.
NEW DELHI (BNS): French fighter aircraft Rafale is back in contention for the 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) which India seeks to acquire.

The decision to allow Rafale to take part in the Indian Air force�s bid to acquire MMRCA was taken at a meeting of the Defence Procurement Board here on Monday, media reports on Thursday said.

Earlier Rafale, made by Dassault, was declared out of the race after technical evaluations. The Technical Evaluation Committee had made the recommendation, as Dassault did not provide information on some equipment and add-ons that the IAF wanted to be in the aircraft, The Hindu reported quoting sources in the Defence Ministry.

However, the Defence Procurement Board, which met under the chairmanship of Defence Secretary Vijay Singh, decided not to accept the recommendation. The Board felt the French firm should also get a look-in when the Indian Air Force conducted field trials over the next few months, it said.

After the news emerged in April, the French launched a fresh bid. Many of the issues that remained unresolved were since then addressed, the sources said.

Now that the parameters set out in the technical evaluations had been complied with, it was felt that Rafale should be allowed to take part in the bid, along with Boeing�s F/A18, Lockheed Martin�s F-16, Saab�s Gripen, MIG-35 and Eurofighter Typhoon.


Ahhh comon now.R u saying Chinese want to buy 40+ Su35 with follow on Agreement for a fun ? Chinese engine has a long way to go.Even when china test flown 5th gen fighter it bought 4++ gen fighter ? It dosnt make sense at all.

I'm not talking about this, this is separate, this specific report involves the very early technical negotians. I am talking about the reports later on that specifically stated the Rafale had been thrown out because of engine (or some other BS reason) issues. This is what I am refuting.

 

[hkmarine55]

I'm not talking about this, this is separate, this specific report involves the very early technical negotians. I am talking about the reports later on that specifically stated the Rafale had been thrown out because of engine (or some other BS reason) issues. This is what I am refuting.

See first tell me from where did u got this info on OFFICIAL STATEMENT FROM IAF ?

2)U dint even knew that Rafale was rejected and later brought back.Which u belive its a BS. That too from NEW Indian Express.I really wonder what source u will belive if its not Livefist,New Indian Expres ect..

Anyway Read the following It was published on March 7 2013

Rafale’s dramatic re-entry another Choppergate?
Published March 7, 2013

SOURCE: NEW INDIAN EXPRESS


Dassault Aviation, the French company whose Rafale aircraft has been selected by the ministry of defence as the preferred bidder, had been ousted from the contract in the beginning, but then it made a dramatic re-entry to emerge at the top.

Rafale finally edged out the American F-16 and F-18, Russian MiG-35 and Swedish Gripen on the basis of technical performance and the pan-European Consortium’s Eurofighter Typhoon on life-cycle costs.

Reportedly, in April 2009 Rafale had been officially knocked out during the technical evaluation stage of the MMRCA for non-compliance. The aircraft had been barred from taking part in the next stage of the evaluation process, As was reported at the time, there were gaps in the technical bid submitted by Dassault. The ministry of defence queried the French company seeking clarification. However, not convinced by the incomplete responses it received, the ministry excluded Dassault from further participation in the tender.

Then, a month later, news appeared of Rafale being back in the race. A defence ministry official was quoted as saying, “Since it was only paper evaluation and the French company Dassault Aviation has now supplied the missing answers, the Defence Procurement Board has decided to allow Rafale to take part in the actual field trials.”

At the time, much was not made of Dassault’s sudden change of fortune. However, the question was, why would a company leave gaps in its bid and then respond callously to official clarification for a tender widely regarded as the mother of all defence deals? More importantly, what prompted the ministry of defence to make a U-turn and reverse its decision of disqualifying Dassault?

Choppergate has brought these questions back in focus as it raises questions over Dassault’s re-entry into the MMRCA deal. How did Dassault Aviation fly back into the race after being ejected initially for technical non-compliance. As it turns out, Choppergate has an uncanny similarity to MMRCA.

Incidentally, almost three years after the comeback and just weeks after it emerged as the lowest bidder (L-1) in January 2012, media reports appeared of two senior defence ministry officials disagreeing with the cost calculations leading to Rafale’s selection. Both officials were part of the high-level Contract Negotiation Committee (CNC) constituted by the Ministry of Defence to negotiate MMRCA.

Apparently, some information was missing in the French company’s bid forcing CNC to make assumptions. The contention of the dissenting officials was that no one had validated those assumptions. Both officials initially refused to counter sign the calculations but later surrendered after noting their reservations on the file.

This was followed by a letter from then Rajya Sabha member, MV Mysura Reddy to defence minister Antony alleging irregularities in the selection process. Reddy sought a review of the whole procedure. Antony responded by ordering an enquiry, which later gave a green signal.

However, now Choppergate has thrown a fresh challenge in the speedy conclusion of MMRCA, which has been termed as the ‘highest priority’ acquisition by the chief of Air Force.

Determined to not let MMRCA become another scandal, Antony has promised multiple levels of scrutiny by different government agencies including the Central Vigilance Commission before the deal moves to the finance ministry and finally the Cabinet Committee on Security for approval.

This vetting is bound to add to the time it will take to resolve the outstanding issues. According to highly placed sources, cost inflation by Dassault and its unwillingness to transfer high technology and reservations against a lead role for Hindustan Aeronautics in the local production of 108 aircraft are some of the sticky points that have raised further issues.

In an indication that signatures on the contract were still some distance away, Dassault Aviation chief executive Eric Trappier reportedly said in February at Aero India, “It’s not surprising that it takes a bit of time.”

“It would be ideal to sign it in 2013,” he added.

 

[asad71]

On an issue Indians will think and think and think -----. And they have their corrupt politicians looking for cut. And they have to keep happy the foreign "friend" who pays the retention fee to look after their interest. And then the notorious, complicated confusing and complex Indian bureaucracy. By the time IAF gets through these gauntlet the aircraft would be two generations older.

 

[hkmarine55]

I am talking about the reports later on that specifically stated the Rafale had been thrown out because of engine (or some other BS reason) issues. This is what I am refuting.

DUDE... seriously ? NO REPORT WE MADE ABOUT ENGINES AT ALL... What are u talking about. See u dont have any Idea what u r talking about now. And u Posted that official statement of IAF ..What is ur source ? Plz post it first

On an issue Indians will think and think and think -----. And they have their corrupt politicians looking for cut. And they have to keep happy the foreign "friend" who pays the retention fee to look after their interest. And then the notorious, complicated confusing and complex Indian bureaucracy. By the time IAF gets through these gauntlet the aircraft would be two generations older.

Thats what am worried.Its lots of money 20billion $USD we get best fighter on performance not due to Kickbacks

 

[Abingdonboy]

@hkmarine55 are you saying I have fabricated this statement?

And NO I don't swallow done the reports from the likes of Shiv Aroor, the New India express and others, these sensationalistic jingos are wrong more time than they are right. They like to rattle Indians up but not REPORT THE NEWS as it is. I like to do my own research and piece things together from multiple sources as I see fit.

 

[hkmarine55]

@hkmarine55 are you saying I have fabricated this statement?

And NO I don't swallow done the reports from the likes of Shiv Aroor, the New India express and others, these sensationalistic jingos are wrong more time than they are right. They like to rattle Indians up but not REPORT THE NEWS as it is. I like to do my own research and piece things together from multiple sources as I see fit.

Dude i dont know official MoD 's news paper which u can trust.I dont care u trust or not its ur wish.But from wr u got the OFFICIAL STATEMENT..Post the Link.So we can also see it.As far as i know its just opposite to wat u had said . No official Statement given like wht u claim ATALL..U made up. Or provide us link.I dont want any Trusted links also atleast single BS links.. Dont throw false imformation

 

[hkmarine55]

what will India go for if Rafale doesn't work out? Typhoons? su-35

poor Rafale.. great product, bad salesmen.