Should INDIA rethink on MMRCA when Chinese buy SU-35

[hkmarine55]

Should INDIA rethink on MMRCA when Chinese buy SU-35

This is not another x VS z thread.I like to put it in a most imformative way.MMRCA itself a decade old requirment.The time when Pakistan is India's biggest threat but times had passed away.Its 2013 and India will recive its first MMRCA fighter jet on 2016 or so.Its confirmed that chinese want to buy Su-35 Which is a Large Stealth fighter with great range and Upgrades which comes closer to PakFa in Avionics and Fute weapons like RVV-BD.Su-35 strong radar allows it to lock on at much greater distance and guide even faster missiles launched from faster more energy platform. by using RVV-BD early Flanker pilot will know what kind of evasive/electronic measures Rafale is going to deploy to defeat that missile.
Rafale platform neither have the engine power nor capacity to carry such pods. It could carry some but it will have to sacrifice ET/Meteor capacity.

Here is my claim that Su-35 is far superior to RAFALE

Rafale
For comparison, the combat capabilities of the Su-35 and Rafale choose a configuration with a range equal to:

10,460 kg (equipment) + 100 kg (pilot) + 4700 kg (fuel) + 370 kg (2 Meteor) + 672 kg (6 MICA) + 4125 kg (3 EFT, 5295 kg of fuel) = 20 427 kg, the total weight of fuel 4700 kg + 5295 kg = 9995 kg.
The radius range of 1155 km, the range of 3300 km. Fuel consumption of 3 kg / km

RCS in this configuration.
RCS min. = 2.8 sq.m., on the pendants 3 PTB + 2 Meteor + 6 MICA = 11 points.
RCS = (2.8 m + 11 m) * 0.5 = 6.9 sq.m.

Su-35
combat load
4 RVV-MD, 4 x 106 kg = 424 kg. 4 P-72 x 49 kg = 196 kg.
6 RVV-SD, 6 x 190 kg = 1140 kg. AKU-170E 6 x 61 kg = 366 kg.
2 RVV-BD, 2 x 510 kg = 1020 kg. AKU-58AE 2 x 186 kg = 372 kg.
424 kg + 196 kg + 1140 kg + 366 kg + 1020 kg + 372 kg = 3518 kg

4 RVV-MD, 4 x 106 kg = 424 kg. 4 P-72 x 49 kg = 196 kg.
4 RVV-SD, 4 x 190 kg = 760 kg. AKU-170E 4 x 61 kg = 244 kg.
4 RVV-BD, 4 x 510 kg = 2040 kg. AKU-58AE 4 x 186 kg = 744 kg. distance of 200 km / 300 km, warhead. 60 kg.
424 kg + 196 kg + 760 kg + 244 kg + 2040 kg + 744 kg = 4408 kg

Take-off weight in this configuration
17,550 (blank) + 100 kg (pilot) + 11500 kg (fuel) + 4408 kg (load) = 33,558 kg
Flight distance in this configuration with a load of 3300 km.
RCS in this configuration.
RCS min. = 2.5 sq.m.
RCS = (2.5 m + 12 m) * 0.5 = 7.25 sq.m.

Whats with the Meteor vs. RVV-BD really? Meteor is not even in service, and yet to be intagrated to Rafale. Same goes for RVV-BD and Su-35. Current loadout of Rafale is MIRA IR/AR and Su-35 carries R-27T/TE/R/RE/P/AE and R-77.

R-77 in terms of weight, size, range, seeker etc etc, is equivalent to MICA AR. R-27RE and R-27AE outranges both by a quite margin. Then we have MICA IR, which is roughly matched by R-27T, and outranged by R-27TE. WHEN Meteor is finally integrated on Rafale, its range will easily be matched by R-27RE and R-27AE missiles.

As for a payload's effects on Su-35, I agree with JSR and Sens on this one. For whatever reasons, Su-35 can reach M2.2 with 2x R-27RE 2xR-77 and 2xR-73 missiles and Rafale can not. Reason -like Kovy stated- is the variable intake ramps on Su-35, but the reason is irrelevant here. VG inlets increase inlet pressure, that increases dynamic T/W at supersonic speeds, and that has positive effect on supersonic acceleration, climb and turning performance. Rafale doesn't have them, and its engines will be generating less than a third of their advertised thrust at high supersonic speeds. With equivalent 6 missile payload, Rafale will likely struggle to climb or accelerate or sustain a turn at anywhere above M1.5, but Su-35 wont.

How much performance degradation would occur if R-27 missiles (350kg 23cm diameter) were to be replaced by R-37 (600kg, 38cm diameter)? 500kg increase on a fighter that weight 25+ tons at NTOW? or a 0.1125 m2 increase of frontal area on a fighter that has a wingspan of 15,3 meters? My answer would be: quite negligable.

Comparing Meteor with R-37 (or RVV-BD) is non-sense IMHO. Despite the Ramjet engine, Meteor is rated at 100+ km range and R-37 missile is rated at 400km. Obviously latter is bigger and more draggy, just as AIM-120 is more draggy than AIM-9.

Irbis/R-37 combination will outrange RBE-2/Meteor combination irrelevant of the miniature RCS differences on a two non-stealthy fighters. For the sake of argument, lets assume for a second Su-35/Irbis combo is inferior to RBE-2/Rafale, and assume EW on Su-35 could not detect the LPI mode of RBE-2. What would happen? As soon as RBE-2 enters STT it will have to give up LPI mode and focus on target to get vector data, and be detected to EW on Su-35. If that happens 90km, Meteor would barely reach Su-35 and most likely be evaded, but 90 km is likely to be within NEZ of R-37. If Rafale pilot waits to force Su-35 into NEZ, it would be detected by Irbis and Rafale would be already R-37's NEZ.

 

[illusion8]

Two words

SUPER MKI's.

 

[hkmarine55]

Simulation of air combat one Su-35 against two Rafale, shows that:
After 1.17 hours after takeoff, the Su-35 will fire long-range missiles, will change its position and take a high altitude flight. After 1:25 hours after takeoff open fire medium-range missiles. All this time the Rafale can not return fire, had to actively maneuver, dropping external fuel tanks with the rest of 2055 kg. Probability of hitting the two targets eight missiles over 100% in ideal conditions.

Su-35 is a high probability to win the battle at two Rafale, with 10 RVV-SD and RVV-MD.

Fight on guns.
Maneuverability of the Su-35 exceeds the capabilities of Rafale, thanks to thrust vector control, greater thrust and lower wing loading. Weight second volley gun Nexter DEFA 791B slightly above GS-301 - 10.7 kg / s. vs. 9.75 kg / sec. At the same ammunition GS-301 150 shots, DEFA - 125 shots.
In any case Rafale would have to withdraw from the battle before the Su-35 due to the much smaller fuel capacity.

Super sukoi comes closer to Su-35 but not Su 35 as per RUSSIAN officials and INdian Officials... Su 35 as upper hand toward Su 35 MKI upgrade...

 

[arp2041]

What is this??

Some Sort of IDIOTIC competition??

Every other Tom Dick & Harry is talking about Scrapping the MMRCA & in turn questioning the capability & decision of world's Fourth largest & one of the most professional AF which has judged every MMRCA contender on 643 Technical Parameters??

I mean, now they are Patenting the whole selection process & Brazil & many other AFs are asking for IAF's help for there own fighter competitions........

IAF doesn't buy anything based on what neighbors are buying, but solely to increase it's own capability.

Seriously, can ANYONE claim to be more KNOWLEDGEABLE/PROFESSIONAL than the Man In BLUE??

 

[hkmarine55]

Its a beast wheb compared to rafale.Rafale itself was rejected by Indian Airforce and EF typoon was selected as Fave for IAF.Which is Air Superiority Fighter Rafale is a Omni role fighter .IAF will get Tejas MK1 &MK2 A2G fighters,AMCA Multirole and UCAV AURA which is stealth radar evadinf fighter to take down enemy instalations like RADAR and Other ground targets.And am affraid its also a scam and Kick Back...At first it was rejected and then brought in by MoD and Won MMRCA deal.

Su-35 strong radar allows it to lock on at much greater distance and guide even faster missiles launched from faster more energy platform. by using RVV-BD early Flanker pilot will know what kind of evasive/electronic measures Rafale is going to deploy to defeat that missile.
This pix show the relative size of wing tip pods.
Rafale platform neither have the engine power nor capacity to carry such pods. It could carry some but it will have to sacrifice ET/Meteor capacity.

 

[danger007]

Should INDIA rethink on MMRCA when Chinese buy SU-35

This is not another x VS z thread.I like to put it in a most imformative way.MMRCA itself a decade old requirment.The time when Pakistan is India's biggest threat but times had passed away.Its 2013 and India will recive its first MMRCA fighter jet on 2016 or so.Its confirmed that chinese want to buy Su-35 Which is a Large Stealth fighter with great range and Upgrades which comes closer to PakFa in Avionics and Fute weapons like RVV-BD.Su-35 strong radar allows it to lock on at much greater distance and guide even faster missiles launched from faster more energy platform. by using RVV-BD early Flanker pilot will know what kind of evasive/electronic measures Rafale is going to deploy to defeat that missile.
Rafale platform neither have the engine power nor capacity to carry such pods. It could carry some but it will have to sacrifice ET/Meteor capacity.

Here is my claim that Su-35 is far superior to RAFALE

Rafale
For comparison, the combat capabilities of the Su-35 and Rafale choose a configuration with a range equal to:

10,460 kg (equipment) + 100 kg (pilot) + 4700 kg (fuel) + 370 kg (2 Meteor) + 672 kg (6 MICA) + 4125 kg (3 EFT, 5295 kg of fuel) = 20 427 kg, the total weight of fuel 4700 kg + 5295 kg = 9995 kg.
The radius range of 1155 km, the range of 3300 km. Fuel consumption of 3 kg / km

RCS in this configuration.
RCS min. = 2.8 sq.m., on the pendants 3 PTB + 2 Meteor + 6 MICA = 11 points.
RCS = (2.8 m + 11 m) * 0.5 = 6.9 sq.m.

Su-35
combat load
4 RVV-MD, 4 x 106 kg = 424 kg. 4 P-72 x 49 kg = 196 kg.
6 RVV-SD, 6 x 190 kg = 1140 kg. AKU-170E 6 x 61 kg = 366 kg.
2 RVV-BD, 2 x 510 kg = 1020 kg. AKU-58AE 2 x 186 kg = 372 kg.
424 kg + 196 kg + 1140 kg + 366 kg + 1020 kg + 372 kg = 3518 kg

4 RVV-MD, 4 x 106 kg = 424 kg. 4 P-72 x 49 kg = 196 kg.
4 RVV-SD, 4 x 190 kg = 760 kg. AKU-170E 4 x 61 kg = 244 kg.
4 RVV-BD, 4 x 510 kg = 2040 kg. AKU-58AE 4 x 186 kg = 744 kg. distance of 200 km / 300 km, warhead. 60 kg.
424 kg + 196 kg + 760 kg + 244 kg + 2040 kg + 744 kg = 4408 kg

Take-off weight in this configuration
17,550 (blank) + 100 kg (pilot) + 11500 kg (fuel) + 4408 kg (load) = 33,558 kg
Flight distance in this configuration with a load of 3300 km.
RCS in this configuration.
RCS min. = 2.5 sq.m.
RCS = (2.5 m + 12 m) * 0.5 = 7.25 sq.m.

Whats with the Meteor vs. RVV-BD really? Meteor is not even in service, and yet to be intagrated to Rafale. Same goes for RVV-BD and Su-35. Current loadout of Rafale is MIRA IR/AR and Su-35 carries R-27T/TE/R/RE/P/AE and R-77.

R-77 in terms of weight, size, range, seeker etc etc, is equivalent to MICA AR. R-27RE and R-27AE outranges both by a quite margin. Then we have MICA IR, which is roughly matched by R-27T, and outranged by R-27TE. WHEN Meteor is finally integrated on Rafale, its range will easily be matched by R-27RE and R-27AE missiles.

As for a payload's effects on Su-35, I agree with JSR and Sens on this one. For whatever reasons, Su-35 can reach M2.2 with 2x R-27RE 2xR-77 and 2xR-73 missiles and Rafale can not. Reason -like Kovy stated- is the variable intake ramps on Su-35, but the reason is irrelevant here. VG inlets increase inlet pressure, that increases dynamic T/W at supersonic speeds, and that has positive effect on supersonic acceleration, climb and turning performance. Rafale doesn't have them, and its engines will be generating less than a third of their advertised thrust at high supersonic speeds. With equivalent 6 missile payload, Rafale will likely struggle to climb or accelerate or sustain a turn at anywhere above M1.5, but Su-35 wont.

How much performance degradation would occur if R-27 missiles (350kg 23cm diameter) were to be replaced by R-37 (600kg, 38cm diameter)? 500kg increase on a fighter that weight 25+ tons at NTOW? or a 0.1125 m2 increase of frontal area on a fighter that has a wingspan of 15,3 meters? My answer would be: quite negligable.

Comparing Meteor with R-37 (or RVV-BD) is non-sense IMHO. Despite the Ramjet engine, Meteor is rated at 100+ km range and R-37 missile is rated at 400km. Obviously latter is bigger and more draggy, just as AIM-120 is more draggy than AIM-9.

Irbis/R-37 combination will outrange RBE-2/Meteor combination irrelevant of the miniature RCS differences on a two non-stealthy fighters. For the sake of argument, lets assume for a second Su-35/Irbis combo is inferior to RBE-2/Rafale, and assume EW on Su-35 could not detect the LPI mode of RBE-2. What would happen? As soon as RBE-2 enters STT it will have to give up LPI mode and focus on target to get vector data, and be detected to EW on Su-35. If that happens 90km, Meteor would barely reach Su-35 and most likely be evaded, but 90 km is likely to be within NEZ of R-37. If Rafale pilot waits to force Su-35 into NEZ, it would be detected by Irbis and Rafale would be already R-37's NEZ.

1st thing SU-35 isn't any large stealth jet....
2nd there will be no similarity between PAK-FA and SU-35....
3rd please no more DiCK competition please...

 

[Matrixx]

Rafale is most appropriate for India... we will only reject it if France refuse to go for 100% TOT and increases the price.

 

[janon]

Rafale itself was rejected by Indian Airforce and EF typoon was selected as Fave for IAF.

Who told you that? Please give us a source for that tall claim.

 

[indian_foxhound]

Who told you that? Please give us a source for that tall claim.

His wet dream told him... Son rafale is the first choice for iaf
And i am sure deal will be inked by aug or sept

 

[hkmarine55]

IAF backtracks: Unwilling to confirm Rafale rejection
'All we are saying is the technical evaluation has been completed and any decision will be taken by the Ministry of Defense. People have made their own interpretations and assumptions. People have been reading too much into this.' : IAF officer



The Indian Air Force (IAF) has backtracked on its rejection of Dassault’s Rafale as a contender for the 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA).

Refusing to clarify further, an IAF officer told StratPost, “All we are saying is the technical evaluation has been completed and any decision will be taken by the Ministry of Defense.”

Referring to recent reports about the rejection, including by StratPost, he said, “People have made their own interpretations and assumptions. People have been reading too much into this.”

Last week, StratPost had asked an IAF officer whether Rafale was out of the running, to which he responded, “It’s confirmed.”


stratpost.com/iaf-backtracks-unwilling-to-confirm-rafale-rejection its been reported by many news channels wierd that u dint know tht

Am a new member so i cant post a link but just add html//

French Rafale out of race for IAF fighters
Manu Pubby
Posted: Apr 16, 2009 at 0215 hrs IST
Indian Express
New Delhi The French Rafale twin-engine multi-role fighter has been knocked off a $10-billion contract for 126 combat aircraft for the Indian Air Force. One of six contenders, Rafale was officially rejected by the Ministry of Defence for what an official called the failure to meet qualitative requirements of the contract.
The IAF has been maintaining that all six contenders — American F-18 and F-16, Eurofighter Typhoon, Russian MiG-35, Swedish Gripen NG and the Rafale — for the Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) contract have met technical requirements.

But a senior official of the Ministry of Defence today said that Dassault Aviation's Rafale was rejected at the technical evaluation stage for failing to meet minimum performance requirements detailed in the tender document. Flight trials for the remaining five fighters are expected to commence within three months, the official said.

“They (Rafale) did not meet the requirements and will not proceed to the next stage. We hope to begin trials within three months with the others that have qualified,” the official said.

The French fighter, always an underdog in the competition for what is considered the largest international defence contract, was aggressively pushed by the French government. Former President Jacques Chirac and successor Nicolas Sarkozy spoke about the fighter in their interactions with India.

Incidentally, a separate contract, valued at close to $2 billion, for the upgrade of the IAF Mirage fighter fleet has also been stuck for several months with India and France still in commercial negotiations. While the IAF requires an urgent upgrade, the price being quoted by France for the upgrade of over 50 fighters has been a dampener.

The early elimination of the Rafale is also being attributed by insiders to its high cost and the failure to respond to technical queries. While commercial bids were to be opened at a later stage, the cost of the fighter was considerably more than most competitors. Insiders say the Ministry was also not very happy with the replies it received on technical queries sent after the French company submitted its technical bid.

Rafale was also missing from the biennial Aero India military aircraft exposition in Bangalore while all its competitors were showcasing their fighters.

The long process for purchasing 126 fighters to boost dipping force levels of the IAF — its fighter strength is at an all-time low of 32 squadrons against an official level of 39.5 and a “desired” level of 42 squadrons — will now proceed to the next stage of flight trials where aircraft will be tested over different terrain, different weather conditions. Trials are expected to take place in Bangalore, Jaisalmer and Leh

I have wet dreams but efo not with rafale or other fighter jets if u want to know

 

[majesticpankaj]

Defence ministry, Dassault to hold talks on aircraft deal


Amid fears of delay in the 126 combat aircraft deal, defence ministry and French Dassault Rafale will hold talks on Friday to iron out differences between them over the responsibilities to be given to the state-run HAL in the contract estimated to be worth USD 15 billion.

Click here!

Soon after the Rafale fighter jet was shortlisted by the IAF in 2012, its maker Dassault Aviation has been raising questions about the capabilities and the role of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited in the contract for 126 Medium-Multirole Combat Aircraft.

The two sides are scheduled to meet as part of contract negotiations where they will discuss all the problems and issues faced in the deal, sources told PTI.

Some of the issues between the two sides include Dassault's demand for two separate contracts to be signed for the deal which includes one for the 18 aircraft to be built by the firm in France [ Images ] and the other for the 108 aircraft which are be integrated in India [ Images ] by the HAL.

The defence ministry is not in agreement with this demand for two separate contracts and has also conveyed this to the French firm, they said.

The defence ministry had earlier also rejected Dassault's demand for making it the lead integrator for the 108 aircraft to be produced in India as the RFP for the tender has specifically given that responsibility to the HAL.

Recently, Dassault Aviation CEO Eric Trappier had stated that HAL would be its main partner in the contract and there was no confusion on the issue.

Dassault has also signed an MoU with the Reliance Industries [ Get Quote ] Limited and wants to give a bigger role to it in the production phase in India is areas such as supply chain and project management.

Rafale had edged out five other aircraft including American F-16 and F-18, Russian MiG 35 and European Eurofighter to bag the contract.

Defence ministry, Dassault to hold talks on aircraft deal - Rediff.com India News

2 days old news

 

[hkmarine55]

Problem is rafale dint accepted for many of the tender demands nd it lost aganst EF during field trails by IAF and it was brought back by Government which was opposed by EF because its illigal.once a fighter is rejected how it can come back ? but mod has no answer

 

[hkmarine55]

Eurofighter consortium and its partner nations “stand ready to enter into further discussions with the Indian Government, should that be their wish”
Eurofighter consortium have agreed to have a relook again at the price and have promised the aircraft could be delivered within months and that the final price could come down.
NOW WHICH IS GOOD FOR INDIA RAFALE or EUROFIGHTER ?By far ef is better thsn rafale in A2A

 

[My-Analogous]

Stick with Rafale which was mighty above all 4.5 + fighter according to Indian theory. China will take su35

 

[godofwar]

Why not get get more MKIs? They are cheaper than Rafales.Is it because we need more fighters for A2G role?