Shadow of Brutal ’79 War Darkens Vietnam’s View of China Relations

[xunzi]

Name them.

Philippines, Thailand, Lao, Malyasia, Burma, Indonesian. Pretty much all countries except Soviet Union supported it because they were the real backer of VN expansion during the height of Sino-Soviet split.

 

[sweetgrape]

Name them.

Can I understand that you accept we stop furture expansion of Vietnam from you response?

 

[Aepsilons]

The Vietnamese weren't going to expand into South East Asia; they intervened in Cambodia to topple the Khmer Rouge, who initiated hostilities by attacking Vietnamese border towns. Indonesia had already crushed the communist insurgencies; the Philippines had crushed the communist Huks in the mid 1960s.

 

[xunzi]

The Vietnamese weren't going to expand into South East Asia; they intervened in Cambodia to topple the Khmer Rouge, who initiated hostilities by attacking Vietnamese border towns. Indonesia had already crushed the communist insurgencies; the Philippines had crushed the communist Huks in the mid 1960s.

Your country called Japan also supported, so you need to shut up or learn history, my friend.

Response from the international community

Shortly after the fall of Phnom Penh to Vietnamese forces and their Kampuchean allies in January 1979, representatives of Democratic Kampuchea called for an emergency meeting of the United Nations Security Council, so Prince Norodom Sihanouk could present the deposed regime's case. Despite strong objections from the Soviet Union and Czechoslovakia, the UN Security Council gave Sihanouk this chance.[43] Although Sihanouk distanced himself from the human rights abuses of the Khmer Rouge, he accused Vietnam of using aggression to violate Kampuchea’s sovereignty. As such, he demanded all UN countries to suspend aid to Vietnam and not recognise the Vietnamese-installed regime.[43] Subsequently, seven non-aligned members of the UN Security Council submitted a draft resolution calling for a ceasefire and the withdrawal of all foreign forces from Kampuchea, which was endorsed by China, France, Norway, Portugal, the United States and the United Kingdom. However, the resolution was not approved due to strong opposition from the Soviet Union and Czechoslovakia.[42] Critics of Vietnamese actions held that they did not invade Cambodia out of any noble desire to stop the atrocities committed by Pol Pot's regime but rather to consolidate their domination of Indochina.[44]

Between 16–19 February 1979 Vietnam and the new Kampuchean regime held a summit meeting which concluded with the two countries signing the Treaty of Peace, Friendship and Cooperation.[45] Article 2 of the treaty stated that the security of Vietnam and Kampuchea were interrelated; thus they would help defend each other “against schemes and acts of sabotage by the imperialist and international reactionary forces”, thereby legitimising the presence of Vietnamese troops on Kampuchean soil.[43] Soon afterwards, the Soviet Union, the socialist countries of Eastern Europe and India immediately recognised the Vietnamese-installed People’s Republic of Kampuchea. The Soviet Government praised the PRK's "remarkable victory" and expressed its full support for the regime's advance towards socialism. Furthermore, the Soviets harshly criticised the Khmer Rouge regime's record of terror, which they implied had been imposed by China.[43]

At the 34th Session of the UN General Assembly, representatives of the People's Republic of Kampuchea and Democratic Kampuchea both claimed the right to represent their country. The former also notified the member nations of the UN Security Council that it was the sole legitimate representative of Kampuchea and its people.[45] In response, the UN Credentials Committee decided to recognise Democratic Kampuchea by a vote of six to three, despite the Khmer Rouge's blood-stained record while in power. Accordingly, representatives of Democratic Kampuchea were allowed to be seated in the General Assembly, with strong support from China.[46] By January 1980, 29 countries had established diplomatic relations with the People Republic of Kampuchea, yet nearly 80 countries still recognised the legitimacy of the deposed Democratic Kampuchea. At the same time, the Western powers and the member countries of theAssociation of South East Asian Nations (ASEAN) also voiced strong condemnation of Vietnam’s use of force to remove the Khmer Rouge regime.[43]

Thailand, which shares an 800-kilometer (500-mile) border with Kampuchea and has historically feared Vietnam's expansionism, demanded that Vietnam immediately remove its troops from Kampuchea so its people could elect a government free from foreign intervention. Indonesia, Malaysia, the Philippines and Singapore showed their support for Thailand's position.[43] Furthermore, ASEAN viewed Vietnam’s invasion and subsequent occupation of Kampuchea, which received strong Soviet support, as an intolerable threat to the region’s security and stability.[47] That view was shared by China, which went as far as accusing Vietnam of forcing Kampuchea into an Indochinese federation to serve as an outpost of Soviet global hegemony. The United States, which never maintained any form of diplomatic ties with the Khmer Rouge’s Democratic Kampuchea, showed strong support for the membership of their former enemy in the UN General Assembly, and echoed ASEAN's call for an immediate withdrawal of Vietnamese military forces from Kampuchea.[43]

 

[IsaacNewton]

The 79 war was overrated, and I doubt another invasion from China will ever occur again.
Many factors led to China's 3 week vacation in Vietnam

1. Deng Xiaoping needed to send army away somewhere to weaken their share of the political power.
2. Vietnam going rampage in Cambodia.
3. Soviet expansion into indochina.
4. China's relatively isolated position in international politics.

As far as Vetnam/Japan getting nukes, why bother, conventional weapons of the 21st century are more than enough of a deterrent.

 

[Aepsilons]

My friend @xunzi , no need to get irritated. I'm not defending the Khmer Rouge, but stated that one of the pretext of Vietnam's invasion to Cambodia was due to Cambodian border hostilities with Vietnam.

Btw, the Domino Theory was largely proven false.

 

[xunzi]

My friend @xunzi , no need to get irritated. I'm not defending the Khmer Rouge, but stated that one of the pretext of Vietnam's invasion to Cambodia was due to Cambodian border hostilities with Vietnam.

Btw, the Domino Theory was largely proven false.

I don't understand why you Japanese have a habit of revising historical facts. This tendency is unique to Japan or something. I already post how the international response to Vietnam. Nobody supported except the Soviet Union and bloc. Southeast Asia were particularly frighten of Vietnam expansion on behave of Soviet Union and they were very happy when we involved militarily. It also help that our invasion led the Vietnamese elite troop in Cambodia to mobilize back up North to defend their border, otherwise they would continue to topple Thailand and Lao.

The 79 war was overrated, and I doubt another invasion from China will ever occur again.
Many factors led to China's 3 week vacation in Vietnam

1. Deng Xiaoping needed to send army away somewhere to weaken their share of the political power.
2. Vietnam going rampage in Cambodia.
3. Soviet expansion into indochina.
4. China's relatively isolated position in international politics.

As far as Vetnam/Japan getting nukes, why bother, conventional weapons of the 21st century are more than enough of a deterrent.

Don't forget, the 1979s war test the Soviet response because at the time, Soviet mobilized vast amount of troop in a stand off with China in the North and the war occurred just 3 days after Soviet signed a mutual defense treaty with Vietnam.

 

[Rechoice]

Pot Pot Tells China in 1977 that Killings Underway, to Continue
SEPTEMBER 13, 2012 BY NATE THAYER 5 COMMENTS

Pol Pot details Khmer Rouge killing enemies in the party to Chinese premier Hua Guofeng in 1977, warns him war with Vietnam is neccessary and looming

Beijing, 29 September 1977

By Nate Thayer

The day before Pol Pot arrived for a state visit in Beijing in September 1977, he made a speech in Phnom Penh in which he publicly revealed for the first time the existence of the Cambodian Communist Party and that he himself was its General Secretary. Neither the Cambodian people nor the world was aware of this even after they had been in power for over two years.

Five days earlier, on September 24, Khmer Rouge forces launched attacks against a number of villages inside Vietnam.

He arrived in Beijing 28 September and departed for Pyongyang on October 4, returning China a week later and returning to Cambodia on 22 October 1977.

It was Pol Pot’s only official visit outside Cambodia while in power as the leader of the Khmer Rouge government, to China and North Korea.

This photo at the farewell ceremony for Pol Pot in Beijing on 22 October 1977 is the last photo of Pol Pot while he was in power before being driven to the jungle more than two years later on 7 January 1979. With a smiling Pol Pot waving in the foreground, Deng Xiaoping on the left and Hua Guofeng in the foreground. Between Hua and Pol Pot, is Ieng Sary, Minister foreign affairs and Pol Pot’s brother-in-law. While Vietnam captioned this as Pol Pot’s arrival in Beijing, Deng was absent the day of the welcoming ceremony for Pol Pot. This official Chinese photograph was used by Vietnamese propaganda to demonstrate collusion between the Khmers Rouge and Beijing.

In China, he met with the chairman of the Central Committee of the Chinese Communist Party and Chinese premier Hua Guofeng, who was Mao’s hand-picked successor, as well as soon to be top leader Deng Xiapeng.

Pol Pot departed China for a state visit to North Korea in early October where he was given a high profile state welcome by Kim Il Sung, before returning for more talks in China.

He signed agreements for increased military aid, training, and other assistance with both countries during this trip.

Reticent concerning the harsh Khmer Rouge rule and rapid march towards war with Vietnam, China nevertheless gave its full and complete support to Democratic Kampuchea when the then undeclared war with Vietnam erupted two years later.

Deng in discussions with Pol Pot tried to convince the Khmer Rouge to be cautious and delay war with Vietnam, but Pol Pot dismissed China’s advice, worsening already strained relations between Beijng and Hanoi.

China nevertheless gave its full and complete support to Democratic Kampuchea in its then undeclared war with Vietnam.

During his visit to China, Pol Pot (on the left) received the support of Deng Xiaoping for the “successes” of “Democratic Kampuchea” in the constitution of a “classless” society and in the battle against Vietnam. Official undated Chinese photograph.

In this working meeting with Hua Guafeng, according to these recently surfaced Chinese transcripts, Pol Pot spells out clearly the purges underway in Cambodia and that war with Vietnam was looming, two years before the rest of the world became aware of the massacres taking place in Cambodia. ” We think that they have prepared intelligence personnel inside our forces. At the central level, they have 5 agents; at the division level, they have between 4 and 10; and in addition, they have some in the provinces,” he said, detailing enemy agents within the core of thee inner party power circle and senior commanding military officers. Pol Pot starkly outlined, in no uncertain terms, his centrally directed sweep of killing enemies at the highest level of his regime on down, would continue, and proclaimed the inevitability of war with Vietnam to the Chinese premier.

Hua Guofeng responds:”Your strategy regarding the neighboring countries is correct.”

The ambassador from the People’s Republic of China to Cambodia, Sun Hua, on the left, with Ieng Sary, toasting each other in Phnom Penh. Undated photo found by the Vietnamese Army in the archives in january 1979, abandoned by the Khmer Rouge as they fled Phnom Penh .

Pol Pot: The Soviet Union, Vietnam, and Cuba are cooperating in order to fight us in the border areas. We think that they have prepared intelligence personnel inside our forces. At the central level, they have 5 agents; at the division level, they have between 4 and 10; and in addition, they have some in the provinces. Since September 1975, they have been preparing to attack Phnom Penh, Prey Veng, and the border areas. They are also preparing to assassinate our leadership with high-accuracy guns and poison. They have several times poisoned food that we by chance did not eat. Thailand, the Soviet Union, and Vietnam are cooperating to do so. We also have documents to show that the US and Vietnam also cooperate on this issue. In 1976, we started to solve the problem of the Vietnamese agents and by June 1977, the job was basically completed. We have placed carefully selected cadres to be in charge of Phnom Penh and the border areas, especially on the Eastern border [with Vietnam] where there are many CIA agents. We understand that the nature of the Vietnamese armed forces has changed. They can no longer bear hardship. They now rely on heavy weaponry, tanks, and aircraft. At the same time, the nature of their infantry forces has also changed. Their troops do not want to fight. Many of their troops from the North have taken additional wives in the South and they cannot fight. We are not concerned about fighting, but about the constant threat from Vietnam. Not only does Vietnam want to annex Cambodia and Laos. It also wants to occupy the whole of Southeast Asia. We have conducted negotiations with them many times, but to no avail. To solve the problem by military means will lead to a decrease in our forces.

The official Chinese diplomat passport Beijing issued to Ieng Sary under the false Chinese name “Su Hao,” falsely stating he was born in Beijing on 1 January 1930. The passport was issued by the Chinese Minister for Foreign Affairs, to allow Sary to travel outside of China after the fall of the Khmer Rouge to Vietnam in January 1979.

POL POT: The strategic orientation, therefore, should be to develop revolution in Southeast Asia. Otherwise, it will take centuries to solve the problem between Vietnam and Cambodia. Laos, to our knowledge, will play an important role in the strategy of Vietnam. The Vietnamese-Lao Treaty of 13 July 1977 is a treaty under which Vietnam annexes Lao territory. Laos’ population is three million. Yet, the number of Vietnamese in Laos alone—not to mention the Vietnamese Laotians—is three million. The Vietnamese population is increasing by between one and two million every year. After five years, the Laotians will be a minority. Vietnam, however, is not able to control Laos because it has insufficient human, financial, and food resources. If the revolution in Southeast Asia advances strongly, exploiting the opportunities, then the situation will be better and we shall solve our problem. We have conversed with our Burmese, Malaysian, Indonesian, and Thai friends and reached agreement with them. This is a big political victory even though it will be more complicated when we go into details. We rely on our Chinese friends in the North. Southeast Asia is united. This situation encourages us strategically. As far as our foreign policy is concerned, we try to unite the Southeast Asian forces. Our Central Committee considers this an important task. We spend time working with parties in Southeast Asia. That Cambodia can defend itself is contributing to the defense of Southeast Asia. As before, we feel safe having the Chinese as friends. The recent 11th CCP Congress encourages us and promises us and the Southeast Asian revolution a bright future.

Hua Guofeng: Your strategy regarding the neighboring countries is correct.

and more here.
Pot Pot Tells China in 1977 that Killings Underway, to Continue - Nate Thayer - Journalist

 

[xesy]

My friend @xunzi , no need to get irritated. I'm not defending the Khmer Rouge, but stated that one of the pretext of Vietnam's invasion to Cambodia was due to Cambodian border hostilities with Vietnam.

Btw, the Domino Theory was largely proven false.

Khmer Rouge was bad, but then against the world need a hero to defeat the villain, not another villain to defeat a villain. And the US sure painted Vietnam a villain before, during and after Vietnam war.

I don't understand why you Japanese have a habit of revising historical facts. This tendency is unique to Japan or something. I already post how the international response to Vietnam. Nobody supported except the Soviet Union and bloc. Southeast Asia were particularly frighten of Vietnam expansion on behave of Soviet Union and they were very happy when we involved militarily. It also help that our invasion led the Vietnamese elite troop in Cambodia to mobilize back up North to defend their border, otherwise they would continue to topple Thailand and Lao.


Don't forget, the 1979s war test the Soviet response because at the time, Soviet mobilized vast amount of troop in a stand off with China in the North and the war occurred just 3 days after Soviet signed a mutual defense treaty with Vietnam.

It was more of a conspiracy than a historical fact. Like US now says something like China wants Far East back from Russia. You know people love conspiracy.

Sure there were rumors about a "Sino Federation" at that time, because after all Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia used to be one in the rule of France. But Thailand? They were bigger and had more terriroty than Vietnam, not to mention US Airforce still used Thai air bases. To fight Thailand, Vietnam must first completely conquer Cambodia, which was not done because the Khmer Rogue escaped to Cam-Thai border. The war moved there, and that created an illusion of Vietnam invaded Thailand.

Unlike big countries, Vietnam at that time did not have the most important resouce for any expansion: man power. 30 years of war left too much destruction to fix, that needed man. The former South Vietnam army needed to be disbanded and kept check, that needed man. Many things needed man in Vietnam and sending men to fight in Cambodia was a completely waste. But then Khmer Rogue did terrible things to Vietnamese inside and outside Cambodia, threatened the security of Vietnam. That's why we fought them.

 

[NiceGuy]

Keep waiting.

Great "Achievement", Now you "control" the lane, so China and USA is in your hand, I am "scared".

BUT, WAIT, you have these, why you still need waiting for nuke license from USA?

U should be scared coz Vn still have strong Russia back up, just like in 1979, both China-US still have No chance to defeat VN

Nuke license from USA will help VN to avoid sanction, so we will wait and enjoy more special VN Tay Nguyen coffee, wow, life is so good

Philippines, Thailand, Lao, Malyasia, Burma, Indonesian. Pretty much all countries except Soviet Union supported it because they were the real backer of VN expansion during the height of Sino-Soviet split.

Thats their fault, UN gave life sentence for those Khmer Rouge leaders for killing innocent people.

Duch Sentenced to Life in Prison By Khmer Rouge Tribunal
BY ABBY SEIFF | FEBRUARY 4, 2012
In a stunning about-face, the Khmer Rouge Tribunal’s highest body on Friday overturned the previous sentence of S-21 prison chief Kaing Guek Eav, better known by his revolutionary name Duch, and awarded him life in prison. The verdict was roundly greeted with praise from prosecutors, government officials, and international donors. But it was the victims, who had been left deflated by Duch’s initial sentence of 35 years, handed down by the Trial Chamber in 2010, for whom the announcement held especial resonance.

“You know, I’m crying but it’s tears of joy because I feel I’ve gotten justice. I’m enjoying this pleasure at seeing Duch spend the rest of his life in prison because he deserves no mercy,” said Kim Huy, 60.
Duch Sentenced to Life in Prison By Khmer Rouge Tribunal | The Cambodia Daily

 

[xunzi]

It was more of a conspiracy than a historical fact. Like US now says something like China wants Far East back from Russia. You know people love conspiracy.

Sure there were rumors about a "Sino Federation" at that time, because after all Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia used to be one in the rule of France. But Thailand? They were bigger and had more terriroty than Vietnam, not to mention US Airforce still used Thai air bases. To fight Thailand, Vietnam must first completely conquer Cambodia, which was not done because the Khmer Rogue escaped to Cam-Thai border. The war moved there, and that created an illusion of Vietnam invaded Thailand.

Unlike big countries, Vietnam at that time did not have the most important resouce for any expansion: man power. 30 years of war left too much destruction to fix, that needed man. The former South Vietnam army needed to be disbanded and kept check, that needed man. Many things needed man in Vietnam and sending men to fight in Cambodia was a completely waste. But then Khmer Rogue did terrible things to Vietnamese inside and outside Cambodia, threatened the security of Vietnam. That's why we fought them.

It was about you expanding on behave of the Soviet Union. Are you forgetting that you and Soviet Union were close ally during that time? Everyone fears of you. Fact.

You can say whatever you want. Liberating Cambodia or any bullshit. Fact remains, you didn't retreat your troop back after you defeat the Khmer Rouge. Not until the UN forced you to do so with sanction that you give up hope of conquering Indochina.

Thats their fault, UN gave life sentence for those Khmer Rouge leaders for killing innocent people.

Cut the bullshit out. Nobody objects and sanction you if you defeat Khmer Rouge and retreat your troop back to Vietnam. Instead you station there, create a puppet and didn't withdraw your troops until over decade later. Fact.

 

[NiceGuy]

It was about you expanding on behave of the Soviet Union. Are you forgetting that you and Soviet Union were close ally during that time? Everyone fears of you. Fact.

You can say whatever you want. Liberating Cambodia or any bullshit. Fact remains, you didn't retreat your troop back after you defeat the Khmer Rouge. Not until the UN forced you to do so with sanction that you give up hope of conquering Indochina.

We conquered and annexed many small neighbours in history but we conquered them only after they attacked VN first ..

If small neighbours dont attack VN, then they have Nothing to be scared of, We only get mad when some one keep attacking us. Last riot against China is a clear example of peace loving VNese getting mad with even big enemy when being pushed into the corner.

 

[xunzi]

We conquered and annexed many small neighbours in history but we conquered them only after they attacked VN first ..

If small neighbours dont attack VN, then they have Nothing to be scared of, We only get mad when some one keep attacking us. Last riot against China is a clear example of peace loving VNese getting mad with even big enemy when being pushed into the corner.

We attack you in 1979, why didn't you conquer us? LOL Cut the bullshit out, my Vietnamese friend.

 

[NiceGuy]

We attack you in 1979, why didn't you conquer us? LOL Cut the bullshit out, my Vietnamese friend.

First: U r not small neighbours

Second: Ur land is dirty , barren and polluted with full of hungry people living there and we can not feed those burden

Our Southern and Western neighbours have more fertile land thats why our Emperors attack and annexed those small kingdom

 

[xesy]

It was about you expanding on behave of the Soviet Union. Are you forgetting that you and Soviet Union were close ally during that time? Everyone fears of you. Fact.

The CCCP was fighting Afghanistan at that time, sure they could use a little war to help them distract the world. But then I must say again it was a war of retaliation, not a war of expansion. No master would want his puppet gets stronger and breaks free. CCCP and Vietnam relationship was no better than Vietnam and China before the 1979 war, I can assure you, judging from the history textbook in school.

Fear does not help win the war, it's the people. After the war with the US, Vietnam had roughly 52 millions population. Half of those are South Vietnamese, who could not contribute much for the war effort against Cambodia. FYI, all South Vietnam troops were disarmed and put in educational camp for at least 2 years, and their children and grandchildren cannot join the army or CP. Couldn't expect much cooperation from South Viet civilians because new communist system surely violated their properties in some ways. So that made only North Vietnam fought against Cambodia. And with 26 millions people alone we could not dream of taking on Thailand, or Laos, because then there would not be enough Vietnamese to keep watch all of Thais and Laos people.