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Secularism is not against Islam

Just like you are supposed to cover up in Saudi Arabia cuz according to them it is decent, In western countries the full niqab not the hijab the total black burqa is not allowed, they see it is subjugation.

ah who said that they even are against the scarf. had u not come across that.
Now coming to subjugation hmmmmmmmm if so why they force nuns at churches wear that long burqa like dress ???? isnt it subjugation ?????
If they are concerned with human rights why dont they ammend their religous laws to allow these poor nuns to marry ???

You as a woman would know very well the amounts of threats, beatings and other social evils, women from south asia has to face. So why should they take our word for it.

Yes i know that and i also know only sick peopel do that and i also know the women are being discriminated even in the West. u might also accept this fact. so its not only the matter of south asia they are also not angles.
 
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West is leagues ahead of south asia, when it comes to women's liberty, I sugges you go there and see for yourself. Than listening to third party. NUN is a very similar to an IMAM or a MULLAH. Do you know who many women have left nunnery and got married, I know a friend of mine's father and mother were priest and nun. they got married and left the church. Who said nuns cant marry.

Nuns are free to leave the nunnery, its quite a known fact. Subjugation has been changing , There are women catholic priest now, something that never happened before. SO they did change their laws didnt they.,type that in google

The Scarf issue was in France, They banned all religious items, big cross, skull caps for jews, turban for silkhs, bindhi's for hindu girls.....i think it is better that way. Just dont go to france if you dont like that
 
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West is leagues ahead of south asia, when it comes to women's liberty, I sugges you go there and see for yourself. Than listening to third party. NUN is a very similar to an IMAM or a MULLAH. Do you know who many women have left nunnery and got married, I know a friend of mine's father and mother were priest and nun. they got married and left the church. Who said nuns cant marry.

Nuns are free to leave the nunnery, its quite a known fact. Subjugation has been changing , There are women catholic priest now, something that never happened before. SO they did change their laws didnt they.,type that in google

im not saying they are not free to leave the nunnry. They marry but for that they had to leave the church as far as they are at church they cant marry and again why they are forced to wear that burqa like dress??
Over 50 per cent women themselves prefer to wear full hijab in most of the Muslim countries even look at Afghanistan they still prefer it.if some1 like to wear it by personal choice its not subjugation. and yeh if u force some1 to wear against her will thn u can term it subjugation.
If i like something to wear who the hell someone else to decide what is subjugation for me and what is not.


You said if someone dont like that they must not go to France isnt it contradiction to ur previouse comment where u were replying to Ahsan R. He was also saying the same thing if someoen dosnt like he is free to leave that country
 
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Exactly so next time, you go to Saudi, wear mini's.

You are trying to justifying nun's(religious heads) to ordinary women. wrong comparison. well, i rather prefer a place which is equal to all, rather than some super uber religion telling me otherwise.
 
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You are trying to justifying nun's(religious heads) to ordinary women. wrong comparison.

Oh u mean they are above the human nature?? are they not humnan and u are saying that cuz they are nuns so it is justified to force them to wear that burqa like dress and it is not subjugation ???
there is no question of ordinary or special if something is subjugation it is subjugation for all irrespective of religion and designation.

Secularism means everyone has the right to practice whatever he likes to not what someone thinks for him. isnt it.
 
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Oh u mean they are above the human nature?? are they not humnan and u are saying that cuz they are nuns so it is justified to force them to wear that burqa like dress and it is not subjugation ???
there is no question of ordinary or special if something is subjugation it is subjugation for all irrespective of religion and designation.

Secularism means everyone has the right to practice whatever he likes to not what someone thinks for him. isnt it.

you take nunnery by choice, you can leave the church too, Congregration is private, Nuns can wear anything they like too, They are not required wear it unless they are inside the church,Last time i checked if you quit being a muslim you can be killed.
 
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Last time i checked if you quit being a muslim you can be killed.

Last time we checked Christian missionaries were still being burned to ashes by Hindutva terrorists for converting Hindus to Christianity.....:coffee:
 
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Last time we checked Christian missionaries were still being burned to ashes by Hindutva terrorists for converting Hindus to Christianity.....:coffee:

Tomcat,
Welcome back, how was your stint in PDF
Please do give me another example than the stains example, The guilty darra singh an Hindu extremist is serving jail sentence. I come from a christian dominated area, pls keep your facts proper and correct.

http://www.ananthapuri.com/kerala-history.asp?page=christian

PS: This thread is about the place of secualrism in Islam, Not about anti-india or anti-pakistan propaganda. We can do that in an other thread. Thank you
 
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how was your stint in PDF

None of your business.

Please do give me another example than the stains example, The guilty darra singh an Hindu extremist is serving jail sentence. I come from a christian dominated area, pls keep your facts proper and correct.

Unfortunately, the list of violence against minorities and Christian missionaries is too long to pin it on one person. Don’t tell me tell it to the U.S. State Department to keep their facts proper and correct, because they are under the impression that Hindutva Terrorists are harassing and abusing on routine basis for converting Hindus to other faiths.

Societal Attitudes

Christian missionaries have been operating schools and medical clinics for many years in tribal areas. Tribals (who have no caste status) and Dalits (who are at the lowest end of the caste system) occupy the very lowest position in the social hierarchy. However, they have made socioeconomic gains as a result of the missionary schools and other institutions, which, among other things, have increased literacy among low-caste and non-caste persons. Some higher-caste Hindus resent these gains. They blame missionaries for the resulting disturbance in the traditional Hindu social order as better educated Dalits, tribals, and members of the lower castes no longer accept their disadvantaged status as readily as they once did. Some Hindu groups fear that Christians may try to convert large numbers of lower-caste Hindus, using economic or social welfare incentives. Upper-caste Hindus, the membership base of the BJP and RSS, are afraid that this may destroy the rigid caste hierarchy. Many acts of violence against Christians stem from these fears.

Citizens often refer to schools, hospitals, and other institutions as "missionary" even when they are owned and run entirely by indigenous Christian citizens. By using the adjective "missionary," the RSS taps into a longstanding fear of foreign religious domination.

Anti Christian violence has included killings. In December 2001, a 22-year-old nun, Sarita Toppo, was killed in a remote tribal village in Sarguja district of Chattisgarh. In early December 2000, a Catholic priest was killed in Manipur. Earlier in Kurpania, Bihar, a nun was raped and a convent was looted.

Many persons also have been injured in attacks on Christians. In November 2001, four Christian missionaries were seriously injured when they were attacked in Dhar district, Madhya Pradesh. In February 2001, four persons were injured after purported members of the Sangh Parivar attacked the Holy Family Church in Mysore, Karnataka. A group of 70 men, allegedly Bajrang Dal activists attacked the church during the celebration of Mass. The VHP termed the incident as "unfortunate," and asserted that the attackers did not belong to the Sangh Parivar. In August activists from the VHP and Bajrang Dal attacked three Christian nuns from an orphanage in Jhabua district and some Muslim drivers in Madhya Pradesh. The victims alleged that police later harassed them when they arrived at the police station to lodge a complaint. In March 2001, alleged BJP and RSS activists attacked a Christian congregation at Chevalla in Andhra Pradesh. The alleged reason behind the attacks was the pervasive perception that Christians were encouraging conversions of Hindus.

In August 2000, in Gandhinagar, Gujarat, a mob beat up a priest for distributing Christian literature. In September 2000, a Catholic Church in Karnataka was vandalized. In late November 2000, in Surat district, Gujarat, a Hindu mob vandalized a small church (converted house) in Chindhia village of Vyara Tehsil. The owner of the church land, which is in a tribal area, was a tribal convert to Christianity who reportedly willingly reconverted to Hinduism and supported the vandals in reconsecrating the building for Hindu worship. The Bishop of the Evangelical Church of India, a small Protestant denomination, was refused an audience with the Chief Minister of Gujarat to discuss this case. The Chief Minister and Gujarat authorities considered the case a conflict over conversion and land, and not a religiously motivated attack on Christians. The lower (tehsil level) court ruled in favor of the Christian group, but the district court ruled in favor of the Hindu group’s possession of the premises. The Christian group has appealed the decision to the Gujarat high court (the next higher court).

In January 2001, in a village near Udaipur, Rajasthan, Bajrang Dal activists allegedly beat two Christian missionaries and their followers because they were watching a film on the life of Christ. Both missionaries were attempting to convert local tribals.

On May 7, 2001, Father Jaideep, a Christian priest, was attacked in Jatni town, Orissa. Local citizens reportedly were enraged by the priest's distribution of pamphlets to propagate Christianity in a Hindu-dominated area, allegedly participated in the attack. In June 2001, a report in The Hindu, a leading national newspaper, stated that more than 5,000 tribals were reconverted back to Hinduism in Orissa over a period of 2 years.

In March 2002, following the outbreak of communal riots in Gujarat, Christian organizations reported that Christian institutions and functionaries in the state also were attacked. These Christian organizations blame the RSS and the VHP for ransacking and burning Christian missions in Sanjeli and Dhudhia, although these charges have not otherwise been confirmed. In April 2002, a church in Managalore, Karnataka was attacked by approximately 60 persons protesting alleged attempts to convert local Hindus to Christianity. In August 2001 in Anakapalli, Andhra Pradesh, 43 Christian tombs in the local burial ground were destroyed. Throughout June and July 2000, there were several bomb explosions in or near Christian institutions in the southern states of Karnataka and Andhra Pradesh. No one was killed in the explosions, which caused relatively minor damage. The blasts later were blamed on Deendar Anjuman activists. Members of the group were taken into custody, and the Government later banned the group (see Section II). These incidents, as well as the killing of a principal at a Christian school near Mathura, Uttar Pradesh, in 2000 led to heated debates in Parliament during which opposition members accused the Government of failing to rein in the radical elements of the Sangh Parivar (see Section II).

In May 2001, at the Banavali village of Salcete Tehsil in South Goa, a Christian priest named Satirino Antao tried to sell a disputed school property to a splinter Christian group calling themselves the "Believers." The majority of the school’s parents were Catholics who opposed the move. Reportedly on May 20, 2001, after a heated meeting, the parents vandalized school property and on May 28, 2001, allegedly assaulted Father Antao. The Archbishop’s office claimed that Antao had been removed as priest of Banavali church in 1973 and had no right to sell the school because it belongs to the Catholic Church. At the end of the period covered by this report, the case against Antao remained in the Goa High Court. On May 28, 2001, in Kapadwanj in Kheda district in Gujarat, members of the VHP stopped a funeral procession to prevent the burial of a Christian in a disputed burial ground. The police used tear gas to dispel the VHP members, but the body had to be moved to Ahmedabad for burial.

On March 8, 2001, K.S. Sudarshan made a speech advocating the "Indianization" of Islam and Christianity. He stated that [Muslims and Christians] "should sever their links with the Mecca and the Pope and instead become swadeshi." He also had stated that Christians should "reinterpret their scriptures" in a manner more in keeping with Hindu cultural norms. Catholics took special exception to this; the Archbishop of Delhi pointed out that the Indian Christian church is 2,000 years old (traditionally dating from the Apostle Thomas), and that although the spiritual head was the Pope, the day-to-day administration of the church was entirely in Indian hands. The RSS published an article entitled "Foreign Missionaries, Quit India:RSS" in their journal The Organiser, in which they attacked missionary-backed Christian institutions in the country. In March 2001, in Orissa, Christian Archbishop Cheenath gave a speech objecting to an amendment to the Orissa Religious Freedom Act which he believed would make conversion more difficult. He said that fears of forced conversion were not credible. He noted that, although Christian schools have for generations educated a far larger percentage of citizens than there are Christians in the general population, Christians make up slightly less of the population today than they did in the 1991 census.

In September 2001, some Christian leaders, believing that violence against Christians had declined significantly since the summer of 2000, agreed to meet with leaders of Hindu organizations. RSS chief K.S. Sudarshan stated there was a need for more such meetings between the RSS and Christians to create an atmosphere of peace and to remove misgivings and fears within the minority community. However, in 2001 the RSS angered minority communities by publicly challenging the "Indian-ness" of religious minorities. On December 31, 2001, RSS chief K.S. Sudarshan addressed a meeting of volunteers of the Hindu Swayamsewak Sangh (a global organization of expatriate Hindus) in a suburb of Mumbai. He said that only the RSS can serve as the bulwark against what he claimed was the Catholic Church’s agenda of converting large Asian populations to Christianity.

Tell it to the U.S. State Congress to keep their facts proper and correct, because in Oct 2005 expressed serious concerns over the abuses and exploitation of some 200 million Dalits, particularly those following the Christian faith. Republican New Jersey Representative Christopher Smith said,

To keep nearly a quarter of one’s population in subhuman status is not only a grotesque violation of human rights, but it is a formula for economic and political stagnation as well... [Indian government] condones, ignores and in some instances, has even promoted ... massive catalogues of human rights violations... All too often, enforcement of laws protecting human rights has been weak or non-existent... Converts to Christianity and Christian missionaries are particularly targeted, as violence against Christians often goes unpunished
 
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It is so funny, when you say that you tell to me, Especially since I am an OBC, Other Backward Caste,lol
How come you are not reading the Link I posted, Still got the narrow minded hangover from your stint neverland....


BAck to topic, create a new thread for your spew. I will come there to entertain
 
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How about discussing the issue then talking about where he posts?

Thank you.
 
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How about discussing the issue then talking about where he posts?

Thank you.

I am sorry webby, you are quite aware that he is hijacking the thread, and taking it off in a completely differnet tangent. I will not reply to him here in this thread. THis thread though heated, was going about Secularism in Islam and the West perception tangent.

There are bad things and good things happening over here in my country, And I have never denied, I dont deny his report though it is exgerated, and it gives undue importance to those RSS fucks. very similar to me qouting some MUllah or saying OBL is the keeper of Islam.I hope you read the link I posted. I am sure you are mature enough to understand that. Religion means **** to me, I rather have just talk to god my own way. I dont care about it, It only divides people. I enjoy this place cuz of its fairness and neutral stance.
 
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I am sorry Adux. You started it.

you take nunnery by choice, you can leave the church too, Congregration is private, Nuns can wear anything they like too, They are not required wear it unless they are inside the church,Last time i checked if you quit being a muslim you can be killed.
 
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True,

I was heated on a debate with JANA, and 4 different threads, got it bit too irritated when she tried to manipulate an article, anyways i did say stuff i shouldnt have.
. But isnt it true, that you cant convert out of Islam, Though my cousin is married to a muslim gal, and they both abstained any form of religion, They a had lot of problems from inlaws, THis is like 10 years back, Now they have a kid and everything

Anyways I like to know about this?
 
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