Russia’s Stealth Fighter Could Outfly, Outshoot American Jets

[he-man]

For the Russians, its always been "Bigger, faster and heavier" is always better.

One point to note in the OP is that T50 only possesses frontal stealth - the author is probably considering the exposed engines of the T50.

Dr Somnathji, is there truth in the statement that T50 only possesses frontal stealth as opposed overall stealth features on F22 and F35? and is the same applicable on FGFA? shout out to the stealth expert @gambit too.

I do realise that not much info has been released by sukhoi, but experts can only draw conclusions from pics and vid's, but the F22 and F35 does look more stealthier than the T50 - (nothing much out there to say about the J20), and most specs given on the net about RCS and design advantages on the T50 arent official figures from Sukhoi.

As for the frontal stealth all is good except for that IRST ball and the visible engine blades.Now they are gonna apply radar blocker like in f-15 silent eagle but needless to say its effect will be far from an ideal s-duct

 

[Dillinger]

Bill Sweetman, Carlo and Peter sahib- for all their knowledge they are more often found cooking up khiyali pulaos.

Here is a thought, Pak-fa vs. F-22 (as much as I loath reducing aerial combat and warfare in general to a platform centric dick measurement gala):-

AEW&C- large specular return, large RCS ergo easy to detect and target. But the larger AEW&Cs can track the border line LO fighters like the Pak-Fa out to quite a distance.

F-22 escorts- extreme VLO and kinematic performance- lead elements positioned ahead of the main group receive vector and continue to limit emissions- engage supercruise and drastically close the distance between the inbound group and interceptors. Ingress into the threat envelope on their own terms and take their shots or force the inbound group into a knife fight where high maneuverability is offset by high off-boresight cuing of weapons.

This gentlemen is ALSO something that can very likely happen.

Warfare, all warfare in today's world, is network centric and not platform centric. Furthermore IAF's doctrine is not the same as that of the PLAAF or VVSR and its that operational doctrine and the resultant tactics employed that dictate the impact of a platform.

Obviously since everyone's got a source or release for RCS figures and detection ranges sans any qualification or context, things just keep getting interesting.

 

[he-man]

Bill Sweetman, Carlo and Peter sahib- for all their knowledge they are more often found cooking up khiyali pulaos.

Here is a thought, Pak-fa vs. F-22 (as much as I loath reducing aerial combat and warfare in general to a platform centric dick measurement gala):-

AEW&C- large specular return, large RCS ergo easy to detect and target. But the larger AEW&Cs can track the border line LO fighters like the Pak-Fa out to quite a distance.

F-22 escorts- extreme VLO and kinematic performance- lead elements positioned ahead of the main group receive vector and continue to limit emissions- engage supercruise and drastically close the distance between the inbound group and interceptors. Ingress into the threat envelope on their own terms and take their shots or force the inbound group into a knife fight where high maneuverability is offset by high off-boresight cuing of weapons.

This gentlemen is ALSO something that can very likely happen.

Warfare, all warfare in today's world, is network centric and not platform centric. Furthermore IAF's doctrine is not the same as that of the PLAAF or VVSR and its that operational doctrine and the resultant tactics employed that dictate the impact of a platform.

Obviously since everyone's got a source or release for RCS figures and detection ranges sans any qualification or context, things just keep getting interesting.

I would like to know how much is a VLO fighter protected against the s-band??
In 2020 when we get the phase 2 engine,,,pakfa willkinematically outclass raptor,,but is woefully short on rcs parameters and thats why it employs 5 aesa radars and god knows how many passive sensors.

Its an excellent platform for the subcontinent,,,,,,not so much for going against USA

 

[Beerbal]

Wow! now Russians are comparing there technology with 30 year old American technology (F22)?

Any way , who care T50 is better than F22 or not, we just want it to best in Asia..

 

[he-man]

Wow! now Russians are comparing there technology with 30 year old American technology (F22)?

Any way , who care T50 is better than F22 or not, we just want it to best in Asia..

In stealth j-20 will kick pakfa's *** and for the matter even f-35's
Our only hope is powerful engines and better electronics.

Bill Sweetman, Carlo and Peter sahib- for all their knowledge they are more often found cooking up khiyali pulaos.

Here is a thought, Pak-fa vs. F-22 (as much as I loath reducing aerial combat and warfare in general to a platform centric dick measurement gala):-

AEW&C- large specular return, large RCS ergo easy to detect and target. But the larger AEW&Cs can track the border line LO fighters like the Pak-Fa out to quite a distance.

F-22 escorts- extreme VLO and kinematic performance- lead elements positioned ahead of the main group receive vector and continue to limit emissions- engage supercruise and drastically close the distance between the inbound group and interceptors. Ingress into the threat envelope on their own terms and take their shots or force the inbound group into a knife fight where high maneuverability is offset by high off-boresight cuing of weapons.

This gentlemen is ALSO something that can very likely happen.

Warfare, all warfare in today's world, is network centric and not platform centric. Furthermore IAF's doctrine is not the same as that of the PLAAF or VVSR and its that operational doctrine and the resultant tactics employed that dictate the impact of a platform.

Obviously since everyone's got a source or release for RCS figures and detection ranges sans any qualification or context, things just keep getting interesting.

1)Rcs will be .3-.4m2 and it has been publicly stated by the designer himself

2)In a recent article the same person stated that rcs of pakfa will be one forteith of the mki

And this maks 2013 model that we saw is pretty close to production model in terms of frame so yes i am not hopeful on the rcs fromt

 

[Dillinger]

I would like to know how much is a VLO fighter protected against the s-band??
In 2020 when we get the phase 2 engine,,,pakfa willkinematically outclass raptor,,but is woefully short on rcs parameters and thats why it employs 5 aesa radars and god knows how many passive sensors.

Its an excellent platform for the subcontinent,,,,,,not so much for going against USA

Outclass the F-22 in kinematic terms, interesting and yet plausible.

"Exposed/visible" engine blades, interesting.

5 airborne-ESA sensors, interesting.

J-20 "kicking" Pak-Fa/FGFA's "***", highly interesting.

 

[anant_s]

Sure they can't but the point is we are taking chinese way way lightly and my guess is they are secretely laughing at us for that.

Thats why i am of the opinion of engaging with chinese directly as no one can dispute their rise in coming years and US can do nothing to safegaurd us against china

Brother there is a Dr Carl Kopp school of thought and to me he seems modern day equivalent of Bomber Gap paranoia of Cold War era. Abingdonboy & Dillinger have reffered to the same in their posts above.

I don't deny the huge strides made by Russians & lesser extent by China in basic R&D towards gen V fighter technology but remember US is flying stealth planes (F-117, B-2, F-22) for long time now and this tells me they are way ahead of the pack.

Little Off topic: but T-50 has been designed to be more agile whle compromising stealth as compared to F-22 or F-35 A/B/C and this is a basic design paradigm difference.

PS: I just tried to put the Rand study conducted in Indian context and try to think of the consequences. May be you too can try for fun. Assume China attacks with J-20 against 50 odd Su 30 MKI (considering similar re-fuelling and AWACS support), what could be the end result?

 

[acid rain]

As for the frontal stealth all is good except for that IRST ball and the visible engine blades.Now they are gonna apply radar blocker like in f-15 silent eagle but needless to say its effect will be far from an ideal s-duct

Any proof that the design has been frozen? Sukhoi is still experimenting with composites and material and hopefully design features.

Its hard to believe that the T50 will end up with exposed engines and intakes - when even the J20 and Iran's qaher look in much better shape than the T50, secondly the extra time that sukhoi's asking for would probably mean they are still working on the frame.

One more point to note is that ADA have still not come up with a conceptual FGFA design and are still working on it.

 

[Beerbal]

In stealth j-20 will kick pakfa's *** and for the matter even f-35's
Our only hope is powerful engines and better electronics.

I remember when T-50-I flew, Chinese Communist party memebers (on PDF), mocked by saying, LREX increase the RCS.. When there J20 was flew, they claim "Canards not increase RCS"

How are u so sure that J20 will kick PAK-FA a$$ in stealth feature? J20 is basically inspired/copied from MiG1.44 and F35 ..

Or you believe in Chinese claim "Because it is black , its more stealthy" or Some Pakistani claim "The DSI increase stealth capability" or some moron claim "The exposed engine blades add up more RCS"...

 

[he-man]

Outclass the F-22 in kinematic terms, interesting and yet plausible.

"Exposed/visible" engine blades, interesting.

5 airborne-ESA sensors, interesting.

J-20 "kicking" Pak-Fa/FGFA's "***", highly interesting.

Everything stands

1)1 front aesa..............proven
2)2 cheek aesas............proven
3)2 l-band aesa.............proven

4)tail borne aesa.........not proven(otherwise i would have said 6 radars)
5)If it gets 176 kn engines it will outclass raptor............all the indications are that it will be before 2020
6)engine blades

now can u confirm if its a photoshop or not??

 

[Beerbal]

Any proof that the design has been frozen? Sukhoi is still experimenting with composites and material and hopefully design features.

Its hard to believe that the T50 will end up with exposed engines and intakes - when even the J20 and Iran's qaher look in much better shape than the T50, secondly the extra time that sukhoi's asking for would probably mean they are still working on the frame.

One more point to note is that ADA have still not come up with a conceptual FGFA design and are still working on it.

if Engine blade expose affect stealth, then YF23 wouldn't be more stelther than YF22..


As one respected member posted in same therad "The focus of T50 is power and manuver", The Stealth feature can be sacrificed for it. (again its just an observation..)

 

[Dillinger]

Everything stands

1)1 front aesa..............proven
2)2 cheek aesas............proven
3)2 l-band aesa.............proven

4)tail borne aesa.........not proven(otherwise i would have said 6 radars)
5)If it gets 176 kn engines it will outclass raptor............all the indications are that it will be before 2020
6)engine blades

now can u confirm if its a photoshop or not??

Stands does it? And if I told you that there will only be three ESA sensors on-board the Pak-Fa, then?

If I told you that platforms have shown better or equal VLO performance to the F-22 without the S-duct, then?

When people don't know the "know why" of complex design elements then conclusions are reached without due consideration.

 

[he-man]

Brother there is a Dr Carl Kopp school of thought and to me he seems modern day equivalent of Bomber Gap paranoia of Cold War era. Abingdonboy & Dillinger have reffered to the same in their posts above.

I don't deny the huge strides made by Russians & lesser extent by China in basic R&D towards gen V fighter technology but remember US is flying stealth planes (F-117, B-2, F-22) for long time now and this tells me they are way ahead of the pack.

Little Off topic: but T-50 has been designed to be more agile whle compromising stealth as compared to F-22 or F-35 A/B/C and this is a basic design paradigm difference.

PS: I just tried to put the Rand study conducted in Indian context and try to think of the consequences. May be you too can try for fun. Assume China attacks with J-20 against 50 odd Su 30 MKI (considering similar re-fuelling and AWACS support), what could be the end result?

They have other things like j-10,,j-11,j-15..............god knows how many j's are there

Pls admit they have the edge here

And whatever the design philosophy of pakfa may be the thing stands that j-20 has better shaping and a s-duct(albeit has canards)

Plus the sheer number of fighters in their inventoey is worrisome

Stands does it? And if I told you that there will only be three ESA sensors on-board the Pak-Fa, then?

If I told you that platforms have shown better or equal VLO performance to the F-22 without the S-duct, then?

When people don't know the "know why" of complex design elements then conclusions are reached without due consideration.

Sir as much as i admire ur knowledge,,,,i cannot ignore the basic things,,pakfa was not made on stealth principle but an all round performer.

pls specify ehich 3 esa radars u refer to??

if Engine blade expose affect stealth, then YF23 wouldn't be more stelther than YF22..


As one respected member posted in same therad "The focus of T50 is power and manuver", The Stealth feature can be sacrificed for it. (again its just an observation..)

U have to look at underbelly and engine too............and pakfa is nowhere near yf-23 which was just a prototype.

 

[he-man]

I remember when T-50-I flew, Chinese Communist party memebers (on PDF), mocked by saying, LREX increase the RCS.. When there J20 was flew, they claim "Canards not increase RCS"

How are u so sure that J20 will kick PAK-FA a$$ in stealth feature? J20 is basically inspired/copied from MiG1.44 and F35 ..

Or you believe in Chinese claim "Because it is black , its more stealthy" or Some Pakistani claim "The DSI increase stealth capability" or some moron claim "The exposed engine blades add up more RCS"...

here u go...........see for urself

pakfa vs yf-23

j-20 vs mig 1.44

mig 1.44

j-20

Now what??

 

[Dillinger]

They have other things like j-10,,j-11,j-15..............god knows how many j's are there

Pls admit they have the edge here

And whatever the design philosophy of pakfa may be the thing stands that j-20 has better shaping and a s-duct(albeit has canards)

Plus the sheer number of fighters in their inventoey is worrisome




Sir as much as i admire ur knowledge,,,,i cannot ignore the basic things,,pakfa was not made on stealth principle but an all round performer.

pls specify ehich 3 esa radars u refer to??



U have to look at underbelly and engine too............and pakfa is nowhere near yf-23 which was just a prototype.

The underbelly in this case has little to do with the specular reflection of the engine blades, the inlet placement does.

You're going to have to hunt for the sensor package on the FGFA on your own. You'll find it in good time.

Lets settle your doubt with a question- what makes the MKI so lethal wrt PAF Falcons and the war-fighting environment? Find the right answer and you can extrapolate from there to quite an extent as to why the FGFA satisfies the IAF.