PYD's Muslim: Ankara agreed to conditional autonomy

[FulcrumKAF]

First of all. Turkish army is not superior to PKK. That is laughable. PKK with 5000 soldiers and no solid logistical support have been in a stalemate with TSK for 10 years. Turkish army on the other hand have had support,in a lot of fields like intelligence and to some degree logistical support,from outside powers.

Second: I see most of you who think you know a lot about military, have no knowledge on it whatsoever. It is not only about who have the biggest guns. A war is a very complicated situation,and the importance of the "guns" is compleetly shadowed by for example the work of the OPSEC (not to mention IRAQ have one of the best OPSECs in the region,and the best OPSEC in Iraq is KRG`s. KRG`s OPSEC is only matched in Iraq by ISOF. Both Iraq and KRG got that due to outside support of course).
Turkey can NOT occupy Syrian or Iraqi parts of Kurdistan for several reasons,these includes political,but also economical and military.Turkey could make a fast strike against them and pull out again in a matter of days/weeks,but that would not change anything. The situation would become the after some weeks from Turkeys withdrawl. Turkey can`t occupy the other parts of Kurdistan. Plus,most importantly,it is in Turkey`s interest to make peace with Kurds. It would be stupid to lose Bilions of dollars,get the international community on your neck and lose thousands of soldiers instead of MAKING billions of dollars with the kurds. What Turkey is doing now is a smart move and its best interests (to allow the kurds get their self-governance. Which is morally also right).
And those of you who believe Assad will stirke kurds (and especially the ones who said kurds will lose easily) as soon as FSA is defeated i will not even bother with. You have played too much games.

KRG does buy weapons. Not heavy equipment,but smaller ones like MANPADS and ATGM (best thing to do,especially for a terrain like Kurdistan). Today,KRG`s military forces have lots of ATGM and MANPADS which could destroy any tank operating in any army in the region (The ATM they have Include FGM-148,BGM-71 and possibly Kornet missile launchers. Some of them are from the black market,while others from their respective countries). KRG`s security forces are very capable,with (thanks to Co-training with US and Iraq) one of the best special forces in the region,especially in low intensity (Urban warfare) and Anti-terrorism.
KRGs army is not strong in open terrain (Where high intensity weapons like Tanks are effective. Much of their heavy weapons are from former IA), but when it comes to urban warfare,anti-terrorism and OPSEC,they are one of the best in the region (And taking into account the terrrain of Kurdistan,they will make a living hell to any force invading KRG,far worse than afghanistan have been for NATO. Imagne taliban with good training,VERY good interlligence,support of the population and state of the art weapons which could penetrate the armour of abrams tanks with one hit,especially on side,back or top armour).
You guys should not expect to find much solid info on KRG`s military on the internet. As i said they have one of the best OPSECs in the region. What you read on the internet about their forces are often speculations or simply something a normal person wrote (Wether in favor or against KRG),and then have spread via forums or articles posted by sites/blogs). And because they are not independent yet,they have no international arms monitoring companies looking after them closely.

 

[Doritos11]

Can prove this kaka wrong on many points ^^, maybe later

 

[TheThreePashas]

First of all. Turkish army is not superior to PKK. That is laughable. PKK with 5000 soldiers and no solid logistical support have been in a stalemate with TSK for 10 years. Turkish army on the other hand have had support,in a lot of fields like intelligence and to some degree logistical support,from outside powers.

Second: I see most of you who think you know a lot about military, have no knowledge on it whatsoever. It is not only about who have the biggest guns. A war is a very complicated situation,and the importance of the "guns" is compleetly shadowed by for example the work of the OPSEC (not to mention IRAQ have one of the best OPSECs in the region,and the best OPSEC in Iraq is KRG`s. KRG`s OPSEC is only matched in Iraq by ISOF. Both Iraq and KRG got that due to outside support of course).
Turkey can NOT occupy Syrian or Iraqi parts of Kurdistan for several reasons,these includes political,but also economical and military.Turkey could make a fast strike against them and pull out again in a matter of days/weeks,but that would not change anything. The situation would become the after some weeks from Turkeys withdrawl. Turkey can`t occupy the other parts of Kurdistan. Plus,most importantly,it is in Turkey`s interest to make peace with Kurds. It would be stupid to lose Bilions of dollars,get the international community on your neck and lose thousands of soldiers instead of MAKING billions of dollars with the kurds. What Turkey is doing now is a smart move and its best interests (to allow the kurds get their self-governance. Which is morally also right).
And those of you who believe Assad will stirke kurds (and especially the ones who said kurds will lose easily) as soon as FSA is defeated i will not even bother with. You have played too much games.

KRG does buy weapons. Not heavy equipment,but smaller ones like MANPADS and ATGM (best thing to do,especially for a terrain like Kurdistan). Today,KRG`s military forces have lots of ATGM and MANPADS which could destroy any tank operating in any army in the region (The ATM they have Include FGM-148,BGM-71 and possibly Kornet missile launchers. Some of them are from the black market,while others from their respective countries). KRG`s security forces are very capable,with (thanks to Co-training with US and Iraq) one of the best special forces in the region,especially in low intensity (Urban warfare) and Anti-terrorism.
KRGs army is not strong in open terrain (Where high intensity weapons like Tanks are effective. Much of their heavy weapons are from former IA), but when it comes to urban warfare,anti-terrorism and OPSEC,they are one of the best in the region (And taking into account the terrrain of Kurdistan,they will make a living hell to any force invading KRG,far worse than afghanistan have been for NATO. Imagne taliban with good training,VERY good interlligence,support of the population and state of the art weapons which could penetrate the armour of abrams tanks with one hit,especially on side,back or top armour).
You guys should not expect to find much solid info on KRG`s military on the internet. As i said they have one of the best OPSECs in the region. What you read on the internet about their forces are often speculations or simply something a normal person wrote (Wether in favor or against KRG),and then have spread via forums or articles posted by sites/blogs). And because they are not independent yet,they have no international arms monitoring companies looking after them closely.

This is hilarious. The Turkish Army isn't superior to the PKK? You idiot, Turkey is containing a terrorist organization ON ITS OWN SOIL and at risk of harming ITS OWN PEOPLE. This isn't the USA in Afghanistan killing civilians left and right. The war on terror can't be won militarily (unless you're risking vast political repercussions) and the Turkish Armed Forces isn't trying to dive for the win and kill tons of of its citizens, further escalating the problem

 

[Doritos11]

^^ Guerilla warfare is the reason, no superiority whatsoever.

Id like to reply, but too much.. ill skip this one cause it will turn into a long discussion anyway.

 

[Keyxusraw]

This is hilarious. The Turkish Army isn't superior to the PKK? You idiot, Turkey is containing a terrorist organization ON ITS OWN SOIL and at risk of harming ITS OWN PEOPLE. This isn't the USA in Afghanistan killing civilians left and right. The war on terror can't be won militarily (unless you're risking vast political repercussions) and the Turkish Armed Forces isn't trying to dive for the win and kill tons of of its citizens, further escalating the problem

First and foremost, there is no reason to call him an idiot.

Secondly, do not come here and make an angel out of the turkish armed forces. Turkey has no problem whatsoever when it comes to hurting its own people. The endless list of turkish state crimes ( not only against Kurds) and their recent brutality against its own people in Istanbul is a clear evidence of this. Do not make this into a '' we are fighting terror''. You mean to tell me you were fighting terror when you burned 4.000 Kurdish villages and killed thousands of intellectuals back in the 90's? What is the difference between USA fighting ''terror'' in Afghanistan and Turkey fighting ''terror''in this matter? None really. Other than USA naturally has no problem killing Afghanis as these are not their own people. While Turkey has no problem killings its own people. I mean, at least you can understand USA killing Afghanis as they have no attachment to this people even though it is still sick. But for Turkey to kill its own people with whom it has a natural attachment... Now, that is sickness at a whole other level.

Even if the turkish army dived for a military victory, it would not be able to. The 90's JITEM, MIT, Grey Wolves, Kontragerilla, Hezbollah, heavy USA weaponry and Israeli intelligence... I mean heck, you even allied yourselves with Kurds from Iraq in order to fight PKK, and you were still not able to defeat them. The only ones giving PKK big headaches back in the 90's were the Kurdish Peshmerga as they knew the mountain terrains. Also the Kurdish village guards also give PKK a headache from time to time as they also know the rural and mountanous terrain.

 

[T-123456]

First of all. Turkish army is not superior to PKK. That is laughable. PKK with 5000 soldiers and no solid logistical support have been in a stalemate with TSK for 10 years. Turkish army on the other hand have had support,in a lot of fields like intelligence and to some degree logistical support,from outside powers.

Second: I see most of you who think you know a lot about military, have no knowledge on it whatsoever. It is not only about who have the biggest guns. A war is a very complicated situation,and the importance of the "guns" is compleetly shadowed by for example the work of the OPSEC (not to mention IRAQ have one of the best OPSECs in the region,and the best OPSEC in Iraq is KRG`s. KRG`s OPSEC is only matched in Iraq by ISOF. Both Iraq and KRG got that due to outside support of course).
Turkey can NOT occupy Syrian or Iraqi parts of Kurdistan for several reasons,these includes political,but also economical and military.Turkey could make a fast strike against them and pull out again in a matter of days/weeks,but that would not change anything. The situation would become the after some weeks from Turkeys withdrawl. Turkey can`t occupy the other parts of Kurdistan. Plus,most importantly,it is in Turkey`s interest to make peace with Kurds. It would be stupid to lose Bilions of dollars,get the international community on your neck and lose thousands of soldiers instead of MAKING billions of dollars with the kurds. What Turkey is doing now is a smart move and its best interests (to allow the kurds get their self-governance. Which is morally also right).
And those of you who believe Assad will stirke kurds (and especially the ones who said kurds will lose easily) as soon as FSA is defeated i will not even bother with. You have played too much games.

KRG does buy weapons. Not heavy equipment,but smaller ones like MANPADS and ATGM (best thing to do,especially for a terrain like Kurdistan). Today,KRG`s military forces have lots of ATGM and MANPADS which could destroy any tank operating in any army in the region (The ATM they have Include FGM-148,BGM-71 and possibly Kornet missile launchers. Some of them are from the black market,while others from their respective countries). KRG`s security forces are very capable,with (thanks to Co-training with US and Iraq) one of the best special forces in the region,especially in low intensity (Urban warfare) and Anti-terrorism.
KRGs army is not strong in open terrain (Where high intensity weapons like Tanks are effective. Much of their heavy weapons are from former IA), but when it comes to urban warfare,anti-terrorism and OPSEC,they are one of the best in the region (And taking into account the terrrain of Kurdistan,they will make a living hell to any force invading KRG,far worse than afghanistan have been for NATO. Imagne taliban with good training,VERY good interlligence,support of the population and state of the art weapons which could penetrate the armour of abrams tanks with one hit,especially on side,back or top armour).
You guys should not expect to find much solid info on KRG`s military on the internet. As i said they have one of the best OPSECs in the region. What you read on the internet about their forces are often speculations or simply something a normal person wrote (Wether in favor or against KRG),and then have spread via forums or articles posted by sites/blogs). And because they are not independent yet,they have no international arms monitoring companies looking after them closely.

Dont know what your true flags are but you should quit dreaming.
IF theTurkish Armed forces wanted to,there wouldnt have been any PKK terrorist left.
But since we allways had/have traitors among us we didnt finish them.
Dont now which one but there was allways another objective.
The KRG dream has only become a reality because of AGAIN a traitor among us(Erdogan).
Who knows what he prommised the PKK.
If we had a real leader,the first thing that happend(downing of a fighter jet),we would have retaliated.
But since we dont,dreamers like you can talk away.
So fanboy,write a nice story.

 

[Keyxusraw]

Dont know what your true flags are but you should quit dreaming.
IF theTurkish Armed forces wanted to,there wouldnt have been any PKK terrorist left.
But since we allways had/have traitors among us we didnt finish them.
Dont now which one but there was allways another objective.
The KRG dream has only become a reality because of AGAIN a traitor among us(Erdogan).
Who knows what he prommised the PKK.
If we had a real leader,the first thing that happend(downing of a fighter jet),we would have retaliated.
But since we dont,dreamers like you can talk away.
So fanboy,write a nice story.

Always the same excuse. You should be thankful that your current leader is Erdogan. I dont agree with the facist at all. He is decieving and a liar. But he is a pragmatist who knows how to play the political game. The facist opposition ( MHP and CHP) only knows how to talk. They demand that Erdogan hang Ocalan. Well tell me, why did you not hang him when you were in government when he was caught? That's right, you would have caused havoc between Kurds and Turks.

Go and topple your government then. If you really think he is a traitor go and do something about it. Dont sit here and cry out excuses. Be a man. Be the man you proclaim to be. Go and take the law in own hand. In Turkey everyone is a traitor according to facist kemalists like yourself.

CHP and MHP fought the Kurds ruthlessly during the 90's. They created all kinds of hell for Kurds and PKK but yet they were not able to fight them off. So what is the difference? Osman Pamukoglu fought against the PKK. He could not do the job either despite the heavy weapons from USA and the Israeli intelligence. During Clinton administration there was no limit to the aid you recieved from USA. You had the whole NATO behind you and you were still not able to defeat PKK.

Listen, these are just facts. If you want to make this all into dream scenarios of what would have happend if Erdogan was not president - be my guest. That will not change the fact that not even the most hardcore, militaristic and facist government such as the MHP/CHP during the 90's was not able to beat PKK.

 

[Doritos11]

lol.. dude look up guerilla warfare and read about it.

PKK hides thats why Turkey has a hard time defeating them, the work finding them is harder then actually fighting them, make PKK come out of its mountains and its game over within a day.
If a war broke out between Turkey and KRG it would quickly turn into a guerilla war again, Peshmerga will be fighting in the mountains. Same in a war scenario with Iraq, Peshmerga would lose in the plains but win in the mountains.

 

[Keyxusraw]

lol.. dude look up guerilla warfare and read about it.

PKK hides thats why Turkey has a hard time defeating them, the work finding them is harder then actually fighting them, make PKK come out of its mountains and its game over within a day.
If a war broke out between Turkey and KRG it would quickly turn into a guerilla war again, Peshmerga will be fighting in the mountains. Same in a war scenario with Iraq, Peshmerga would lose in the plains but win in the mountains.

And I have not denied that. But this turk just does not seem to know anything. Also, guerilla warfare is not only about terrain. It is also about logistics, moral backing, financial backing and military training. Much of which PKK harvests from the local Kurdish people. As long as the Kurdish people back the PKK as long will PKK survive.

And you seem to forget one important factor; PKK's metropol units. The ones who are able to attack military and police targets deep within Turkish metropols such as in Istanbul, Izmir, Iskenderun, Tokat etc. Turkey should be more concerned about the metropol units than the actual guerillas in the mountains.

 

[FulcrumKAF]

Thats why i put taliban in my comment. If TSK invaded,KRG would turn to guerilla warfare,which (with its resoruces) would make a long time occupation of Kurdistan a hard,if not impossible for its neighbours,task. Plus,Turkey invading KRG would get strong condemnations from the World,and especially Baghdad. Turkey would also lose a LOT economically. It would cost them billions of dollars (and destroy their trade with KRG,which is on 12 billion dollars yearly and they get cheaper oil,which comes with a lot of politcal and economical benfits) on an invasion of KRG. I don`t think even GoT is stupid enough to do that,even if some blinded nationalists want it.

PKK have done good against TSK. Turkey is using state-of-the-art weaponries,with one of the strongest airforces in the region. Of course PKK wont go on a open,conventional war against them with some AK,RPGs and a few old MANPADS.
Actually,what Erdogan have done is what a smart leader would do. He is a facist,liar and barbarian,yes,but he nevertheless knows how to think 2 steps ahead. A invasion and occupation of any outside territory would be compleetly against Turkey`s interests,especially taking into account Turkey already occupies a large portion of Kurdistan,with 20mil people,which could rise up in a "potential" invasion of another Kurdish territory.

 

[kurd123]

Seems like certain members here are quite deluded. Sheep tend to forget things quite easily, most commonly, not even knowing the full story. Let me take you back in time. In 2003, Turkey was completely against any Kurdish movement in Iraq. Turkey openly supported anti-Kurdish factions in Iraq and attempted to mobilize the Turkmen. Lets fast forward some years to 2006, so far Turkish attempts to curb Kurdish influence in Iraq has failed, the mobilization of Turkmen failed, and Turkey is looking for alternatives, however Turkey soon decided to invade, which off course wasn't successful. Kurdish influence is continuing to increase, Turkey now moves onto the Sunni Arabs in Iraq and funds the "Iraqiya" party in an attempt to win the elections and use politics to curb Kurdish power, off course we all know what became of Iraqiya, which marked the final failure of Turkey to stop the KRG. Having failed several times, Turkey begins to open up to the KRG, which has grown into the good ties the two have today.

I shouldn't have you remind people that Erdogen is still a nationalist, he didn't chose to follow the polices he is following today, the events around the middle east forced him to adopt, and to suggest that any other Turkish government would have handled it differently is pure delusion and stupidity.

lol.. dude look up guerilla warfare and read about it.

PKK hides thats why Turkey has a hard time defeating them, the work finding them is harder then actually fighting them, make PKK come out of its mountains and its game over within a day.
If a war broke out between Turkey and KRG it would quickly turn into a guerilla war again, Peshmerga will be fighting in the mountains. Same in a war scenario with Iraq, Peshmerga would lose in the plains but win in the mountains.

That is flawed information. Iraq does not have a functioning air force, and is years away from it. The KRG owns anything Iraq owns (minus the american tanks), thus, Iraq does not have the power to win even in plains, instead they will face a stalled war, which would eventually see both sides retreat.

The same applies for Syria off course, Turkey didn't chose to open up to the PYD (or the PKK for that matter), rather, Turkeys own failures and Kurdish success in Syria is what motivated Turkey.

 

[Doritos11]

Seems like certain members here are quite deluded. Sheep tend to forget things quite easily, most commonly, not even knowing the full story. Let me take you back in time. In 2003, Turkey was completely against any Kurdish movement in Iraq. Turkey openly supported anti-Kurdish factions in Iraq and attempted to mobilize the Turkmen. Lets fast forward some years to 2006, so far Turkish attempts to curb Kurdish influence in Iraq has failed, the mobilization of Turkmen failed, and Turkey is looking for alternatives, however Turkey soon decided to invade, which off course wasn't successful. Kurdish influence is continuing to increase, Turkey now moves onto the Sunni Arabs in Iraq and funds the "Iraqiya" party in an attempt to win the elections and use politics to curb Kurdish power, off course we all know what became of Iraqiya, which marked the final failure of Turkey to stop the KRG. Having failed several times, Turkey begins to open up to the KRG, which has grown into the good ties the two have today.

I shouldn't have you remind people that Erdogen is still a nationalist, he didn't chose to follow the polices he is following today, the events around the middle east forced him to adopt, and to suggest that any other Turkish government would have handled it differently is pure delusion and stupidity.

Well yes Kurdish influence is growing, they have made use of the Iraq war situation and the Syrian war which allowed them to establish.
Today Barzani is way too much on Erdogans side, I dont see how Turkey wants Iraqiya against Kurds, they are supporting Kurds in Iraq, if KRG goes independent they will be too much dependent on Turkey for their oil exports, thats why I assume they are not planning for independence any time soon. Part of Iraq benefits them more only they need to stop the hostility.

 

[kurd123]

Well yes Kurdish influence is growing, they have made use of the Iraq war situation and the Syrian war which allowed them to establish.
Today Barzani is way too much on Erdogans side, I dont see how Turkey wants Iraqiya against Kurds, they are supporting Kurds in Iraq, if KRG goes independent they will be too much dependent on Turkey for their oil exports, thats why I assume they are not planning for independence any time soon. Part of Iraq benefits them more only they need to stop the hostility.

Read my post again, I said the Iraqiya party which began as a Turkish puppet was aimed at undermining Kurds. That off course failed.

Barzani isn't on Erdogens side, they simply have mutual understandings at the moment, just like The Shia and Kurds were prior to 2010. Kurdistan can declare independence if they wanted to, however it doesn't make sense for them at the moment until a pipeline is built.

Well, Turkey needs our oil and stability just as much as we need them. Depending on how things turn out in Syria we may need Turkey less. If Assad retreats to Latakia, which will by default be an enemy of Turkey thus would be looking for friends, we can take advantage of that via their access to sea, in return we can provide them land route to Iran. Off course this is where Russia, who is increasingly more supportive of Syrian Kurds come in, the KRG can use that and the Russian-KRG oil contracts to lobby conditions on any future weapon sales to Iraq.

Off course regional leaders are well aware of these facts, which is why both Iran and Maliki are toning down their demands.

P.S: Don't forget that if Iraq wants to buy weapons from France (and some other states), they require a signiture from the KRG.

"Iraqi PM Nouri Al-Maliki is said to have asked National Security Adviser of Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG) Masrour Massoud Barzani to help arrange armament deals with France. The following 404-word report sheds light on the subject and tells what about the reaction of Masrour Barzani and what about Al-Maliki’s efforts to buy the VBCI 8x8 wheeled infantry fighting vehicles (IFV) of Nexter."

From Tactical report.

 

[Doritos11]

Read my post again, I said the Iraqiya party which began as a Turkish puppet was aimed at undermining Kurds. That off course failed.

Barzani isn't on Erdogens side, they simply have mutual understandings at the moment, just like The Shia and Kurds were prior to 2010. Kurdistan can declare independence if they wanted to, however it doesn't make sense for them at the moment until a pipeline is built.

Well, Turkey needs our oil and stability just as much as we need them. Depending on how things turn out in Syria we may need Turkey less. If Assad retreats to Latakia, which will by default be an enemy of Turkey thus would be looking for friends, we can take advantage of that via their access to sea, in return we can provide them land route to Iran. Off course this is where Russia, who is increasingly more supportive of Syrian Kurds come in, the KRG can use that and the Russian-KRG oil contracts to lobby conditions on any future weapon sales to Iraq.

Off course regional leaders are well aware of these facts, which is why both Iran and Maliki are toning down their demands.

P.S: Don't forget that if Iraq wants to buy weapons from France (and some other states), they require a signiture from the KRG.

"Iraqi PM Nouri Al-Maliki is said to have asked National Security Adviser of Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG) Masrour Massoud Barzani to help arrange armament deals with France. The following 404-word report sheds light on the subject and tells what about the reaction of Masrour Barzani and what about Al-Maliki’s efforts to buy the VBCI 8x8 wheeled infantry fighting vehicles (IFV) of Nexter."

From Tactical report.

First of all, Tactical report is bs.
I follow Iraqs military programs and that website makes up news which makes no sense, deals which never come to the light and useless information, from Iraq buying Rafales, Mirage 2000 to Mirage F1. Posts from 2009 even while Iraqs Minister of Defence was not even going to France to dicuss these sales. Leave that website.

KRG waiting on the pipeline, Ive heard this from many Kurds though you realize this makes you 100% dependent on Turkey for Economic lifeline, not something you would want. Even if it finishes you really want to go independent from Iraq, say bye to 23% of central gov budget share and be dependent on Turkey for your economy ? We are talking about Turkey.. not Kurds best friend historically. its even more benefit for KRG then for Iraq to stay part of Iraq, if they leave Iraq gets much more of the central government money

About Kurds in Syria, I believe their stronghold is northeast, they control some cities here and there but that does not mean they control the route aswell, neither could we know what happens if FSA or SAA attacks them.
If Assad retreats to Latakia region then there is still a huge way to go northeast to border the Kurdish controlled land, that suggestion does not work.

KRG sells oil/gas with a large share, therefor these contracts are much more interesting to oil companies, whereas Iraq offers little to them. The reason of this was said by Barzani himself, so this company is more functioning as defence, they are selling the oil with a low price.

"If ExxonMobil came, it would be equal to 10 American military divisions," he said, adding that "they will defend the area if their interests are there."

 

[Doritos11]

^^ I do not even want to stop KRG from going independent, they can have it for all I know and go independent though its more reality that they will stay part of Iraq as its suicide to go independent now. Its not worth it losing all that to see an official Kurdistan on the map.