Purchase of Fifteen Chinook Heavy-Lift Helicopters

[neehar]

impressive..i'd like to have one of these...

 

[sancho]

and, do we really require TOT or local manufacturing for just 15 nummbers?

15 today, with the Mi 26 and the Chinnok as only options and only for the airforce, but what about 2018 or 2020? By that time IN aims to induct LDPs, which could effectively use heavy lift helicopters in the transport role too, so with Ch 53K as an option for IAF and IN, the number might have been higher right?
Also it's not about getting ToT, but to have a benefit by producing parts in India! Beeing part of such a development alone improves our industry, because they learn about modern development and production routines, but producing especially the composite airframe parts would also offer the chance of more jobs in India. How many jobs do we create in India by procuring Chinooks and a where is the industrial benefit at all?

I am not saying the Chinook is generally a bad helicopter, but it's not suiting our requirements and the long term perspective had offered us better choices, for our forces and our industry!

 

[Abingdonboy]

15 today, with the Mi 26 and the Chinnok as only options and only for the airforce, but what about 2018 or 2020? By that time IN aims to induct LDPs, which could effectively use heavy lift helicopters in the transport role too, so with Ch 53K as an option for IAF and IN, the number might have been higher right?
Also it's not about getting ToT, but to have a benefit by producing parts in India! Beeing part of such a development alone improves our industry, because they learn about modern development and production routines, but producing especially the composite airframe parts would also offer the chance of more jobs in India. How many jobs do we create in India by procuring Chinooks and a where is the industrial benefit at all?

I am not saying the Chinook is generally a bad helicopter, but it's not suiting our requirements and the long term perspective had offered us better choices, for our forces and our industry!

@sancho, time was hardly on the IAF's side- could they have afforded to wait another 6-8 years to induct a heavy lift helo? Year on year the MI-26s are becoming increasingly unserviceable and the AOG time is increasing. A major gap was emerging in the IAF's capabilities that does need to be plugged sooner rather than later.

 

[faithfulguy]

Indian buying CH47F model

Congrats to India for buying this chopper. India should get more

 

[acetophenol]

Really? Don't tell me you still fall to this old Boeing PR buddy.



We can't keep 2 different types of heavy lift helicopters, since that would be too costly. Either we go for a real heavy lift helicopter with all operational advantages, or we compromise with the Chinook. High numbers are not needed anyway, because we use Mi 17s in most tactical roles.
The biggest problem imo, is the shortsight of IAF once again. There are better heavy lift helicopters under development today which we should have considered, or even joined as a partner. With the Chinook today, we actually took the worst possible choice for this requirement.

IMO, IAF is capable of keeping Mi 26 along with chinooks , Mi 26 in small no,to be used in rare occasions,where situation calls for a real heavy lifter. We have most challenging environments, and previously we used Mi 26s were used to ferry bulldozers,railway line construction equipments, Trucks etc with ease. Mi 26 also demonstrated lifting of APCs (Strykers to be precise) during excercises in Rajasthan. I don't think Chinooks can lift a bulldozer or a standard IA truck [read: ashok leyland stallion] or an APC,though i would be happy to be proven wrong. If we loose Mi 26 we will be missing them. I agree that Mi 26 are a pain in the as$,but their capabilities are unmatched.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

IMO, IAF is capable of keeping Mi 26 along with chinooks , Mi 26 in small no,to be used in rare occasions,where situation calls for a real heavy lifter. We have most challenging environments, and previously we used Mi 26s were used to ferry bulldozers,railway line construction equipments, Trucks etc with ease. Mi 26 also demonstrated lifting of APCs (Strykers to be precise) during excercises in Rajasthan. I don't think Chinooks can lift a bulldozer or a standard IA truck [read: ashok leyland stallion] or an APC,though i would be happy to be proven wrong. If we loose Mi 26 we will be missing them. I agree that Mi 26 are a pain in the as$,but their capabilities are unmatched.

The few Mi-26 that are there in IAF service will remain, and will be used whenever the IAF wants to and is able to (!) use them.
The Chinooks cannot lift a bulldozer but a Stallion is within its capacity. The Chinook is desired and desirable to the IAF because of its "last mile delivery capabilities". The Mi-26 comes nowhere near that. In time, the IAF will order another tranche of Chinooks. Do not be surprised when it happens.

 

[acetophenol]

The few Mi-26 that are there in IAF service will remain, and will be used whenever the IAF wants to and is able to (!) use them.
The Chinooks cannot lift a bulldozer but a Stallion is within its capacity. The Chinook is desired and desirable to the IAF because of its "last mile delivery capabilities". The Mi-26 comes nowhere near that. In time, the IAF will order another tranche of Chinooks. Do not be surprised when it happens.

I am never against chinooks and would love to see 40~60 chinooks in service. On the same time I want IAF to keep at least 2 ~ 4 Mi 26s. If the existing ones retires I want IAF to buy atleast 2 new Mi 26s and keep the feather lights squadron (squadron operating mi 26 now) up and running with Mi 26.
Btw, chinook can carry a single stalion but Mi 26 can carry two!

 

[Capt.Popeye]

I am never against chinooks and would love to see 40~60 chinooks in service. On the same time I want IAF to keep at least 2 ~ 4 Mi 26s. If the existing ones retires I want IAF to buy atleast 2 new Mi 26s and keep the feather lights squadron (squadron operating mi 26 now) up and running with Mi 26.
Btw, chinook can carry a single stalion but Mi 26 can carry two!

How often in actual operations will you need to see Stallions heli-lifted in to combat? If that is a regular requirement, then that means something is wrong somewhere. Do not look at these helos just as weight-lifters, look at them as combat transports! Then the picture will become clearer.

Otherwise the Mi-26 will perform 'sky-crane' tasks when required. When do you think that will be rquired more; in a combat or peace-time scenario? Therefore; horses for courses and why the IAF decided on the Chinooks.

 

[acetophenol]

How often in actual operations will you need to see Stallions heli-lifted in to combat? If that is a regular requirement, then that means something is wrong somewhere. Do not look at these helos just as weight-lifters, look at them as combat transports! Then the picture will become clearer.

Otherwise the Mi-26 will perform 'sky-crane' tasks when required. When do you think that will be rquired more; in a combat or peace-time scenario? Therefore; horses for courses and why the IAF decided on the Chinooks.

Bro,
what I am trying to say is that We should keep a few Mi 26 as sky cranes so that we can do real heavy lifting ,which is going to be more in peacetime,without external help . Really, i don't want see India leasing Mi 26 from outside for lifting heavy construction items to Kashmir or North east. Let chinook handle all the hardcore combat and active military heavylifts,all I am asking is for is to keep just 2 Mi 26 for those `Real special situations` which may not arise frequently,but when it arises, i don't want us to have our as$es in fire!

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Bro,
what I am trying to say is that We should keep a few Mi 26 as sky cranes so that we can do real heavy lifting ,which is going to be more in peacetime,without external help . Really, i don't want see India leasing Mi 26 from outside for lifting heavy construction items to Kashmir or North east. Let chinook handle all the hardcore combat and active military heavylifts,all I am asking is for is to keep just 2 Mi 26 for those `Real special situations` which may not arise frequently,but when it arises, i don't want us to have our as$es in fire!

The reqd. Mi-26 skycranes are there and do the job when they are not AOG. What else is needed?
BTW, sometimes it is better (and cheaper) to lease something than to own a 'diminishing asset'. That is an universal dictum, which applies to aircraft as well.

 

[acetophenol]

The reqd. Mi-26 skycranes are there and do the job when they are not AOG. What else is needed?
BTW, sometimes it is better (and cheaper) to lease something than to own a 'diminishing asset'. That is an universal dictum, which applies to aircraft as well.

My point is,when the chinook comes,we should retire Mi 26,and when Mi 26 becomes old,we should replace them with Mi 26 itself so that we will have atleast 2 Mi 26 with us. About leasing,i don't us to be at the mercy of supplier!

 

[Capt.Popeye]

My point is,when the chinook comes,we should retire Mi 26,and when Mi 26 becomes old,we should replace them with Mi 26 itself so that we will have atleast 2 Mi 26 with us. About leasing,i don't us to be at the mercy of supplier!

Read what I wrote about 'diminishing assets' earlier. Now I'll add another dictum: 'Never throw good money after bad'.

As for what the IAF should own, they have pretty clear ideas about that. And we'll even get to know how much (or if) the Mi-26 fits into that.

 

[acetophenol]

Read what I wrote about 'diminishing assets' earlier. Now I'll add another dictum: 'Never throw good money after bad'.

As for what the IAF should own, they have pretty clear ideas about that. And we'll even get to know how much (or if) the Mi-26 fits into that.

Mi 26 is truely a diminishing asset, and with new choppers coming in,it will be a part of history. And yeah,sure Men at Indian Armed forces knows what to do,better than us! I leave that to them!

 

[selvan33]

Sikosrky is developing the CH 53K, which is the real heavy lift helicopter of the US in future and if the current CH 53 would still be under production, it would also be the more comparable choice to Mi 26.

CH-53K


The best choice for the future however could be Eurocopters Future Transport Helicopter, developed with Boeing as a partner. It is based on the Chinook design, but developed as a real HEAVY LIFT helicopter, with much more payload and the design to carry bigger loads and especially vehicles internally too:

Internal payload: 15t
External payload: 18t
MTOW: 33t
Cargohold size for armored 4x4 or 6x6 vehicles
Triple external Cargo Hook


Cargohold size comparison current Chinook and FTH:

i too know about ch 53k buddy. but what about its cost. and also i personally hate india's defence relation with US. so i dont want to see more than 15 chinooks.

 

[sancho]

@sancho, time was hardly on the IAF's side- could they have afforded to wait another 6-8 years to induct a heavy lift helo? Year on year the MI-26s are becoming increasingly unserviceable and the AOG time is increasing. A major gap was emerging in the IAF's capabilities that does need to be plugged sooner rather than later.

As I said, time would not be an issue, since we can procure or even lease a smaller number of new Mi 26T2s in the meantime. There is nothing faster and easier to induct then them, since we have the operational experience, logistics and basic training available. That would have easily filled the gap till CH 53K, or even the FTH would be available.

IMO, IAF is capable of keeping Mi 26 along with chinooks , Mi 26 in small no,to be used in rare occasions,where situation calls for a real heavy lifter.

Buddy, heavy lift is what we use them for, so if we have one type, we don't need anther one at the same time. That's simply not going to happen, since it don't offer any value for the money we would spend.

i too know about ch 53k buddy. but what about its cost. and also i personally hate india's defence relation with US. so i dont want to see more than 15 chinooks.

There is nothing to hate about, if we can procure arms and techs that are really capable for us, but buying current Chinooks for the next 30 to 40 years, while everybody else will operate real heavy lift helicopters is simply a silly choice.