PN mini-submarine fleet

[Bilal Khan 777]

Is there a basis to this question?

So there is no basis, just cynicism borne out of pettiness and an inability to argue back with verifiable facts?

Seriously, "coming on a little too strong" ?? @dBSPL and @cabatli_53's confidence comes from years of following their country's defence developments. Evidently unlike others here, those two actually follow what Ismail Demir, Temel Kotil, Davut Yilmaz, etc say to the media, read magazines like MSI to see what TUBITAK-SAGE, STM, etc are up to, and practically everything else an informed Pakistani defence enthusiast would do re: JF-17.

What you see above is a reflection of one side clearly knowing its sh!t, and the other, sadly, looking like it's spewing random claims. The fact that you all would resort to insinuations instead of responding to facts with facts looks bad, and unprofessional.

What random claims I am spewing? What random claims are you spewing?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

What random claims I am spewing? What random claims are you spewing?

Let's start here,

"You seemed to be deeply, commercially, or emotionally connected with STM. May the force be with you."

Not to mention the insinuation that anyone correcting you suddenly becomes a company shill. That's a random claim, or a cheap exit to a losing argument, you pick.

 

[MastanKhan]

I think He has serious problems in his life so That must be the way getting attention and respect in social area. .

Hi,

That is not an intelligent comment from a poster like you---. It was not neccessary---.

So there is no basis, just cynicism borne out of pettiness and an inability to argue back with verifiable facts?

Seriously, "coming on a little too strong" ?? @dBSPL and @cabatli_53's confidence comes from years of following their country's defence developments. Evidently unlike others here, those two actually follow what Ismail Demir, Temel Kotil, Davut Yilmaz, etc say to the media, read magazines like MSI to see what TUBITAK-SAGE, STM, etc are up to, and practically everything else an informed Pakistani defence enthusiast would do re: JF-17.

What you see above is a reflection of one side clearly knowing its sh!t, and the other, sadly, looking like it's spewing random claims. The fact that you all would resort to insinuations instead of responding to facts with facts looks bad, and unprofessional.

Hi,

You need to calm down buddy---.

 

[GriffinsRule]

The quality of the posts by our Turkish friends here speak for themselves. The other old "senior" members are best skipped over and ignored as they really have little to nothing to contribute themselves.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Let's start here,

"You seemed to be deeply, commercially, or emotionally connected with STM. May the force be with you."

Not to mention the insinuation that anyone correcting you suddenly becomes a company shill. That's a random claim, or a cheap exit to a losing argument, you pick.

Okay. I will not bother you guys anymore. Carry on.

The quality of the posts by our Turkish friends here speak for themselves. The other old "senior" members are best skipped over and ignored as they really have little to nothing to contribute themselves.

yes, you have a point. Its best I not give any more opinions.

Hi,

That is not an intelligent comment from a poster like you---. It was not neccessary---.



Hi,

You need to calm down buddy---.

Some people have become holy cows and above board. Experts who read defence magazines, websites, and become experts and suddenly can have more insight then people who operate, analyze, and develop these systems, and who are still in the loop with all the major decision makers, being their mentors and counsels.. The standard of original material on this forum is going to the dumps.

Let's start here,

"You seemed to be deeply, commercially, or emotionally connected with STM. May the force be with you."

Not to mention the insinuation that anyone correcting you suddenly becomes a company shill. That's a random claim, or a cheap exit to a losing argument, you pick.

I didnt allege anyone to be a company propagandist, rather being national fan boys who cannot hear anything against their country. However, I honestly admire such loyalty.

Since you are the last word on anything and everything defence in Pakistan, why dont you get my account deleted and be done with it?

 

[Dazzler]

Turkish technology is not GOD sent, so those advocating it as such should reconsider it. Sometimes, the reality is contrary to what is being claimed. Case in point being the performance of PNS Muawin.

Despite clearing trials, it is proving to be a problematic system thus far. As per "those onboard", the tanker is having difficulties getting to terms with PN's operational requirements. Quite a few years ago, PN inducted MRTP-33s, and never expanded on the initial order for the same reason.

I stand in agreement to professionals who have used, and know the technology inside out.

I think He has serious problems in his life so That must be the way getting attention and respect in social area. Let him to talk whatever he want. Let him suppose STM is a shipyard or STM lost in Pakistani Milgem deal or whatever He want...

Being an int'l mod, the quoted part of your post is truly below the belt. Just because someone does not agree with your stance, does not mean he is having problems in life.

Try going through your posts next time before addressing senior professionals.

 

[cabatli_53]

Some people have become holy cows and above board. Experts who read defence magazines, websites, and become experts and suddenly can have more insight then people who operate, analyze, and develop these systems, and who are still in the loop with all the major decision makers, being their mentors and counsels.. The standard of original material on this forum is going to the dumps.

First of all, You do not have any idea about me and my profession. You can never know How do I know some information that you don’t have any idea so forget about me. I am not the actual subject which is the problem in here since I am not the one who bring forward my carrier and age into agenda to back up my words so just concentrate on info I reveal instead of composing many things based on your personal assumptions.

Secondly, It is the first time I have seen a person like you who is fighting against members who want to provide truths about his own country's technical matters. All those openly shows me again that You are just a guy who is pretending to have deep and serious info but actually you don’t have any idea what you are talking. When It is asked you to prove about, you just start accusing members with personal matter while implying How professional guy you are to underestimate the facts of your opponent instead of providing the technical aspects of your claims to back up your assertive claims. I haven't seen you yet while talking about some serious technical matters but just your so called insider references, age and professional career. When the situation even went worse for you, You suddenly start typing "It was just "your opinion". What is the reason of those reaction. Nobody have to agree on your opinion."

Opinion is a claim that was brang forward by the people who haven't operated, analyzed, developed, seen the related things before but reaching some info with reasoning on his own. You as a "professional" who accuse members not to have any idea about subjects you talk about, then claim that They are "opinion"?
Later, you again play important guy games with those speeches to gain some support from members!

become experts and suddenly can have more insight then people who operate, analyze, and develop these systems

I advice you to determine whether they are just opinion or information from a guy who operate, analyze, and develop these systems ?


Let me tell you what is the actual meaning of opinion and serious truths !

• That is opinion of mine: You are a guy who seeks respect among forum pages with pretending to behave as somebody who is senior about Turkish Naval, Air and Land technology matters. You regularly spread nonsense about Turkish matters (I don't know about technical matters of Pakistani systems since I don't have any idea about your reliability for Pakistani matters) as if they are true but actually Not even close to be true. What I see is that You behave with an old age complex to teach the place for members who tell your faults. You frequently triggered when someone tell something adverse to your claims and acting rude while using "delusion, fanboy, ultra-nationalist" like words to convert issue into a personal matter instead of technical subject to hide your deficiency. When It was advised you to calm down, You bring forward your age again.

Those sentences typed above are my opinion and they are open to discussion. That is the reason I have called it as opinion. Some members may agree on my approach about you, While others don't. That is the nature of revealing an opinion.



“STM is a shipyard, STM lost in Pakistani tender, ANKA has many Israeli component, AselPod is a Israeli product produced under the licence, STM mini sub is German....etc”

• Those subjects don't have any doubt to allege an opinion from any senior members. They are not even open to discussion to agree on whether It is true or false. If you tell those under the cover of "opinion", then accuse members with a rude way who fixes your "opinions", then I just call you not a senior but an attention lover who seeks respect among pages, Than Someone from original country of systems you talk about, come here and tell you What is the differences between opinion and certain truths while asking you to prove what you are talking and advice you about How you should gain respect with correcting your words.

To end up those nonsense, I invite you again to just prove them technically instead of walking around the words with important guy behaviors who operate, analyze, and develop these systems. Your age, rank or any other things you can reveal in front of the members can not be an excuse to back up all those nonsense claims, even if you want to improve the respectability of your false accusations with using those personal cards. If Your statements above are your opinion, Then you should respect the statements of professionals with a humble manner. If you claim that They are your professional analyze reached from first hand sources who have insight info while developing, operating, analyzing them, Then Let's prove them here to finish this conversation.

 

[cabatli_53]

Turkish technology is not GOD sent, so those advocating it as such should reconsider it.

Did you witness anybody in here who talk about Turkish technology/products like this way in here ? We all have good will to improve our relations, infrastructure for mutual benefits of our states. There are some projects that Turkish institutes have many difficulties to meet the requirements of Turkish Navy and AirForce as well so the projects are delaying. Turkish Coast Guard has also selected Ares boats against Yonca Onuk. If they were such a perfect things, They would have wiped all tenders inside/outside... Why did you gain such an impression to type as if the discussion above has anything to do with being perfect or not? A "professional" guy frequently claim absurd and unprofessional things about Turkish matters under the cover of some personal leverage and Turkish members refuse what He claims. I think You should read the whole story before reaching a "GOD sent" like result.

 

[dBSPL]

We love Pakistan as we love our homeland. This love and respect is firmly grounded. And will not diminished by insults to be given to us here.

We come when the state of Pakistan says "come". we go when the state of Pakistan says "go". We have no geopolitical goals on Pakistan, like some others. We only have prayers because Pakistan carries the DNA of the great and powerful Muslim Asia.

We are not forced to sell any system to the Pakistani state. Those who question the effectiveness of the Turkish industry in the Pakistan defense sector should start with the state organs of Pakistan.

We made one request from you. If you are uncomfortable with this situation, if you want to proceed with more Chinese systems, be honest. Do not manipulate the Turkish defense industry with lies. Look, there are at least 7-8 lies on the last two pages. When we wanted to correct them, we were accused of wrongdoing or as a cheerleader...

Do not do this. In the most difficult time these Turkish brothers will be shoulder to shoulder with you. We want you to have fairness and honesty.

This is the last message I have written under this title. Thanks.

 

[Dazzler]

Did you witness anybody in here who talk about Turkish technology/products like this way in here ? We all have good will to improve our relations, infrastructure for mutual benefits of our states. There are some projects that Turkish institutes have many difficulties to meet the requirements of Turkish Navy and AirForce as well so the projects are delaying. Turkish Coast Guard has also selected Ares boats against Yonca Onuk. If they were such a perfect things, They would have wiped all tenders inside/outside... Why did you gain such an impression to type as if the discussion above has anything to do with being perfect or not? A "professional" guy frequently claim absurd and unprofessional things about Turkish matters under the cover of some personal leverage and Turkish members refuse what He claims. I think You should read the whole story before reaching a "GOD sent" like result.

Keep the national rhetoric aside. It is all business. You sell, we buy - and as customers having used/ using Turkish, Chinese or even American defence products, we will have the right to express opinion. @Bilal Khan 777 is an experienced professional who knows more than many on defence matters. I am not here to defend any xyz but the condescending tone used against senior members must be discouraged.

Promote your products all you like but have the courage to listen/ respectfully disagree with those who differ.

Carry on with your stuff.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Keep the national rhetoric aside. It is all business. You sell, we buy - and as customers having used/ using Turkish, Chinese or even American defence products, we will have the right to express opinion. @Bilal Khan 777 is an experienced professional who knows more than many on defence matters. I am not here to defend any xyz but the condescending tone used against senior members must be discouraged.

Promote your products all you like but have the courage to listen/ respectfully disagree with those who differ.

Carry on with your stuff.

This should run both ways, no?

 

[Dazzler]

This should run both ways, no?

What offended you?

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

First of all, You do not have any idea about me and my profession. You can never know How do I know some information that you don’t have any idea so forget about me. I am not the actual subject which is the problem in here since I am not the one who bring forward my carrier and age into agenda to back up my words so just concentrate on info I reveal instead of composing many things based on your personal assumptions.

Secondly, It is the first time I have seen a person like you who is fighting against members who want to provide truths about his own country's technical matters. All those openly shows me again that You are just a guy who is pretending to have deep and serious info but actually you don’t have any idea what you are talking. When It is asked you to prove about, you just start accusing members with personal matter while implying How professional guy you are to underestimate the facts of your opponent instead of providing the technical aspects of your claims to back up your assertive claims. I haven't seen you yet while talking about some serious technical matters but just your so called insider references, age and professional career. When the situation even went worse for you, You suddenly start typing "It was just "your opinion". What is the reason of those reaction. Nobody have to agree on your opinion."

Opinion is a claim that was brang forward by the people who haven't operated, analyzed, developed, seen the related things before but reaching some info with reasoning on his own. You as a "professional" who accuse members not to have any idea about subjects you talk about, then claim that They are "opinion"?
Later, you again play important guy games with those speeches to gain some support from members!


I advice you to determine whether they are just opinion or information from a guy who operate, analyze, and develop these systems ?


Let me tell you what is the actual meaning of opinion and serious truths !

• That is opinion of mine: You are a guy who seeks respect among forum pages with pretending to behave as somebody who is senior about Turkish Naval, Air and Land technology matters. You regularly spread nonsense about Turkish matters (I don't know about technical matters of Pakistani systems since I don't have any idea about your reliability for Pakistani matters) as if they are true but actually Not even close to be true. What I see is that You behave with an old age complex to teach the place for members who tell your faults. You frequently triggered when someone tell something adverse to your claims and acting rude while using "delusion, fanboy, ultra-nationalist" like words to convert issue into a personal matter instead of technical subject to hide your deficiency. When It was advised you to calm down, You bring forward your age again.

Those sentences typed above are my opinion and they are open to discussion. That is the reason I have called it as opinion. Some members may agree on my approach about you, While others don't. That is the nature of revealing an opinion.



“STM is a shipyard, STM lost in Pakistani tender, ANKA has many Israeli component, AselPod is a Israeli product produced under the licence, STM mini sub is German....etc”

• Those subjects don't have any doubt to allege an opinion from any senior members. They are not even open to discussion to agree on whether It is true or false. If you tell those under the cover of "opinion", then accuse members with a rude way who fixes your "opinions", then I just call you not a senior but an attention lover who seeks respect among pages, Than Someone from original country of systems you talk about, come here and tell you What is the differences between opinion and certain truths while asking you to prove what you are talking and advice you about How you should gain respect with correcting your words.

To end up those nonsense, I invite you again to just prove them technically instead of walking around the words with important guy behaviors who operate, analyze, and develop these systems. Your age, rank or any other things you can reveal in front of the members can not be an excuse to back up all those nonsense claims, even if you want to improve the respectability of your false accusations with using those personal cards. If Your statements above are your opinion, Then you should respect the statements of professionals with a humble manner. If you claim that They are your professional analyze reached from first hand sources who have insight info while developing, operating, analyzing them, Then Let's prove them here to finish this conversation.

Thank you. Is there anything else left? Where is the discussion on SWAT?

Turkish technology is not GOD sent, so those advocating it as such should reconsider it. Sometimes, the reality is contrary to what is being claimed. Case in point being the performance of PNS Muawin.

Despite clearing trials, it is proving to be a problematic system thus far. As per "those onboard", the tanker is having difficulties getting to terms with PN's operational requirements. Quite a few years ago, PN inducted MRTP-33s, and never expanded on the initial order for the same reason.

I stand in agreement to professionals who have used, and know the technology inside out.



Being an int'l mod, the quoted part of your post is truly below the belt. Just because someone does not agree with your stance, does not mean he is having problems in life.

Try going through your posts next time before addressing senior professionals.

NFT was mentioned so many times by the flag wavers. Lest I submit something about prototypes, the whole group will come after me like here, picking out sentences and spewing their abuse. We can also discuss MRTP 16, MRTP 33, and all other Turkish "gifts" that we have. Some of the kit is good though, like Aselsan RWS, but they use US bushmaster cannons and now a serious issue for PN to support.

Did you witness anybody in here who talk about Turkish technology/products like this way in here ? We all have good will to improve our relations, infrastructure for mutual benefits of our states. There are some projects that Turkish institutes have many difficulties to meet the requirements of Turkish Navy and AirForce as well so the projects are delaying. Turkish Coast Guard has also selected Ares boats against Yonca Onuk. If they were such a perfect things, They would have wiped all tenders inside/outside... Why did you gain such an impression to type as if the discussion above has anything to do with being perfect or not? A "professional" guy frequently claim absurd and unprofessional things about Turkish matters under the cover of some personal leverage and Turkish members refuse what He claims. I think You should read the whole story before reaching a "GOD sent" like result.

You guys cant take criticism can you?

This should run both ways, no?

Whose side are you on, sir?

 

[JamD]

They are pushing a non-built German design, that is only at concept. STM is a builder, and not a designer. They do not have any experience of submarine design, let alone a small submarine which is twice as difficult since you have put all the same machinery in a small space. Lets see what PN decides.

This was the technical point raised and in all the replies I have not seen THIS PARTICULAR point answered. Yes laurels of STM have been detailed (I am sure they are doing great things) but the fact remains the original point raised was not answered. In this battle of BilalKhans I will have to side with 777. We are the buyer and we have the right to ask questions about things we may be sinking money into. Just because someone is from a "brotherly country" doesn't mean they get a free pass from technical scrutiny.

That being said accusations were thrown around from both sides, which spoils the atmosphere of the forum. But I still feel 777's original technical question was never answered and a lot of "hey look at this other stuff" mixed in with nationalism was thrown around.

Also, for a second there I thought @Bilal Khan (Quwa) account got hacked or something. Very out of character from you.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Keep the national rhetoric aside. It is all business. You sell, we buy - and as customers having used/ using Turkish, Chinese or even American defence products, we will have the right to express opinion. @Bilal Khan 777 is an experienced professional who knows more than many on defence matters. I am not here to defend any xyz but the condescending tone used against senior members must be discouraged.

Promote your products all you like but have the courage to listen/ respectfully disagree with those who differ.

Carry on with your stuff.

I have a lot of love and respect for Turkey, they are our real iron brothers and will always be, but I simply cannot close my eyes on operational and technical matters as it related to Turkish Defence industry trying to appear like they are the final word on everything.

Again, where is the SWAT discussion? Let me guess, there is none, hence all this Halabaloo about my words.
Kindly present a SWAT from Turkey, STM or ASFAT, or wherever, or otherwise accept that there is no SWAT in development or in production in Turkey that Pakistan Navy can bank on. This was the original argument, and sadly due to my bitter old man parlance, all the Kebab lovers get all riled up.

This was the technical point raised and in all the replies I have not seen THIS PARTICULAR point answered. Yes laurels of STM have been detailed (I am sure they are doing great things) but the fact remains the original point raised was not answered. In this battle of BilalKhans I will have to side with 777. We are the buyer and we have the right to ask questions about things we may be sinking money into. Just because someone is from a "brotherly country" doesn't mean they get a free pass from technical scrutiny.

That being said accusations were thrown around from both sides, which spoils the atmosphere of the forum. But I still feel 777's original technical question was never answered and a lot of "hey look at this other stuff" mixed in with nationalism was thrown around.

Also, for a second there I thought @Bilal Khan (Quwa) account got hacked or something. Very out of character from you.

Wish I was as objective as you. BZ.