Philippine Air Force interested in Gripen

[scobydoo]

Philippines modernization budget around 1,7-1,8 billion for 5 years. I doubt they will buy gripen at 60 million each.

 

[Zero_wing]

Philippines modernization budget around 1,7-1,8 billion for 5 years. I doubt they will buy gripen at 60 million each.

But that will go up soon due to the new bill if it pass in congress but its not impossible problem lease to own or just lease just like the Czech got or small number of fighters same as Thailand after all the government is using G2G Government to Government on contracts and defense agreement so probability the Philippine Air force will get some unused stocks from Sweden itself again guys this for phase 3 the Philippine modernization program is still on going to Phase 2 and finishing Phase 1 so we have to wait for years to know if they are really going to get Gripens for the phase 3 of the Modernization plan as i said again they are looking at the Gripen as candidate for Phase 3

 

[jhungary]

I think PH is slowly reforming their armed force.they're already buying some equipments while other projects are stacking up.so,they just can't buy high end jets with 1.8 bil dollars which they allocated for 5 years while they have to reform entire armed force right now.so,buying medium quality equipment that serves the purpose is the way.they bought 2 'Northwest Wind' class frigates,while they could go for much capable frigates,as well as 2 Hamilton class patrol boats.apart from that,they'were looking for missile firing gunboat,second hand aircrafts,Japanes maid patrol boats,Sokol Helos,Jacinto class patrol vessels,Patrol Killer Medium class boats, etc.Philippines clearly stated that not choosing F-16s is purely financial decision.what they really are looking for is cost effective solution.there is no doubt that F-16 and F-18 are capable jets and will serve PH better.but Gripen is cost effective solution of that.also,some might want to compare Gripen with F-16s.F-18 is way over this league,but remember,USA only proposed India to give this jet,not others.so,that might be an issue too.also,cost is the factor..

lol...........this is what I am talking about.........Cost....

But one country cannot survive on T-50 and second rated equipment forever, at some point they are going to need a major backboned Defence force with modern to near modern equipment.

Problem of Philippine do not have money now is a temporary situation, they will have the money in the future, otherwise why they are saving up the money and buy second handed and second graded equipment now??

No the F18 are just too expensive to maintain sir Gripen will be the Final fighter for the next 3 decades and ya i think its NG since its going to come out soon i think its 2016 but the c and d version would be enough

I don't think you will be getting new Gripen rolling out of the manufacturer line, as they were closed last time I was in Sweden. At best you will get the Current Swedish Air force Gripen which they are currently active selling them now for the sake of NG development.. That thing may be able to last you 10-15 years, definitely not 30 years.....

Gripen NG is costing the nearly same as Super hornet. Super hornet cost around 67 mil a pop while Gripen E/F Currently standing at 58 mil a pop and can increase if either Sweden cannot found more oversea buyer (Making less and increase cost per unit) or Swden or Switzerland themselves did not order as much.

Given the US/Philippine relation, I definitely think Phi can ask for a deal from the American anyway.

 

[Luftwaffe]

Why is it small Air Forces/Army forget they need most importantly ground based long range Radars, SAMs before jumping to expensive solution.

I Think the relatively cheap [although not so cheap at $35m] solution is FA-50 multirole [Korean with better Radar & Armament]

F-16s and Gripens would always be very expensive, Philippines has this habit of coming out showing interest and hibernate for a few months. [purchase price and and the complete package including spares, services, weapons etc has not been included so the price would always go up to 90m + over the long term. Gripen comes in the same bracket as F-16s, refurbishing upgrading them would as much as 120m it has cost 160m for Egypt for block 52 and 167m for Pakistan ofcourse includes spare and everything else but if sweden was to provide all of this Philippines would never be able to afford older Gripens.

 

[Penguin]

Gripen will not be good it still runs with a US engine, if US decided to sanction Pakistan, you still get hung by a planes without an engine....Only a bit better off than your F-16.......

If you want to play safe, get away form US made planes altogether..........



The term Foreign content should extend to the patent and IP right that applies exclusively to other country, but not Sweden.

It does not matter if only the planes have 1% foreign parts, you cannot grand license that does not belong to you to other country, that is a good way to get a huge and hefty legal fights. Not everyone is China you know??

As for F-35. The planes is American planes (US Properties). The international contribution only to the financial backing to the R&D and technological design of the planes in exchange for ToT for participant country and manufacturing requirement, thus making the plane American. However, the Patent and IP right is also an open source as different country and partner can have parts put in their F-35 different then the others. In effect it's a US planes but partner country are free to put their hardware in and make their own version of F-35, and US does not have the sole right to those version.

However, the core planes remain an US patent. Sales of F-35 to anyone is governed by Pentagon Foreign Military Sales Programs.
But after said sale is approved, you can literally put whatever you want in it (Given the permission is already given)

That's a LOT different than LCA or JF-17 or Gripen, where they did R&D together and uses Foreign Parts DIRECTLY into their airframe.

You are missing 2 points:
1. Most smaller countries cannot affort to design and build fighter jet by themselves anymore, hence international cooperations. It is quite likely Rafale is the last French fighter (and that too has much foreign content). Why do you think the US wants other countries involved in F-35? It is all about development costs.
2. If the key US content on Gripen is the engine, then the supposed problem isn't all that big. There are example of aircraft being reengined (e.g. Mirages with Russian engines, re-eniined Phantoms). Sweden has already offered the "Sea Gripen" variant to Italy, to be equipped with one EJ-200/230 powerplant...

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...j200-variant-at-thrust-vectored-gripen-37567/
http://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/article/f–35b-needs-plan-b

 

[Zero_wing]

lol...........this is what I am talking about.........Cost....

But one country cannot survive on T-50 and second rated equipment forever, at some point they are going to need a major backboned Defence force with modern to near modern equipment.

Problem of Philippine do not have money now is a temporary situation, they will have the money in the future, otherwise why they are saving up the money and buy second handed and second graded equipment now??



I don't think you will be getting new Gripen rolling out of the manufacturer line, as they were closed last time I was in Sweden. At best you will get the Current Swedish Air force Gripen which they are currently active selling them now for the sake of NG development.. That thing may be able to last you 10-15 years, definitely not 30 years.....

Gripen NG is costing the nearly same as Super hornet. Super hornet cost around 67 mil a pop while Gripen E/F Currently standing at 58 mil a pop and can increase if either Sweden cannot found more oversea buyer (Making less and increase cost per unit) or Swden or Switzerland themselves did not order as much.

Given the US/Philippine relation, I definitely think Phi can ask for a deal from the American anyway.

That's what i been saying sir Swedish stocks by G2G Government to Government deals including transfers of technology and training in some deals the current method used by the Philippines with its modernization but again this is far off because the said plane is still a candidate for the final phase of the PAF modernization program a lot of things can happen again if we pick the Gripen i think the deal would be similar to the Czech deal or even lease to own anything can happen but once again thanks for the inputs and comments your post are always great to read.

 

[Nexus]

why are they not buying american planes?

because money. they don't have money to buy costly American jats.

 

[Zero_wing]

Sir its not the cost of buying its maintenance issues that is really the problem as of now we have to update what we have then buy things its not in India were your constantly developing your R and D in our cast our R and D stop after marcos because of mismanagement and incompetence not to mention the Asian Financial crisis that hit us really hard but that water under the bridge now as of now we are updating everything from battle doctrine to personnel equipment etc and we are rushing i guess you know why! again Phase 1 ending and rushing to Phase 2 and this discussion is about the Gripen (MRF candidate for Phase 3 which will happen in a few decades or so)

 

[jhungary]

You are missing 2 points:
1. Most smaller countries cannot affort to design and build fighter jet by themselves anymore, hence international cooperations. It is quite likely Rafale is the last French fighter (and that too has much foreign content). Why do you think the US wants other countries involved in F-35? It is all about development costs.
2. If the key US content on Gripen is the engine, then the supposed problem isn't all that big. There are example of aircraft being reengined (e.g. Mirages with Russian engines, re-eniined Phantoms). Sweden has already offered the "Sea Gripen" variant to Italy, to be equipped with one EJ-200/230 powerplant...

Eurojet aims EJ200 variant at thrust vectored Gripen
F

well, you are missing one MAJOR point then.

With out any Engine Manufacture capability. Sweden cannot produce their own engine. Hence unless they are trying to sell the aircraft mes engine. They will need to ask permission somewhere (French, Russia, US or even China) to have included the engine into their own planes.

Do bear in mind my point is not Sweden need to ask US the permission (Although it's true) rather they need to ask permission to several country in order make more themselves. How can they license something they themselves get licenses from?

In case of the Sea Gripen, do they need permission from French to transfer those tech to Italy??

F-35 is a different matter, all Research and Patent right are going Directly into US while Participant country like Italy, Britain and Australia "Finance" the operation, in exchange their first share of the product and ToT on some item. All sale of F-35 are require to go under pentagon foreign sale tribunal.

 

[jhungary]

That's what i been saying sir Swedish stocks by G2G Government to Government deals including transfers of technology and training in some deals the current method used by the Philippines with its modernization but again this is far off because the said plane is still a candidate for the final phase of the PAF modernization program a lot of things can happen again if we pick the Gripen i think the deal would be similar to the Czech deal or even lease to own anything can happen but once again thanks for the inputs and comments your post are always great to read.

lol thanks, but I had saw those Gripen first hand, unless the package Swede offered also including a Mid-life upgrade, I would say you had about 10-15 life out of those airframe....

And indeed they are now selling them cheap because Swedish Air Force want to get rid of those Older gripen and get some money and put them into Gripen NG program.

But I still think if you are to choose gripen, you either go NG or it's interim, then it's better off if PAF buy Super Hornet or even F-16. That way you can squeeze more form those American, rather than the swede....

 

[Zero_wing]

lol thanks, but I had saw those Gripen first hand, unless the package Swede offered also including a Mid-life upgrade, I would say you had about 10-15 life out of those airframe....

And indeed they are now selling them cheap because Swedish Air Force want to get rid of those Older gripen and get some money and put them into Gripen NG program.

But I still think if you are to choose gripen, you either go NG or it's interim, then it's better off if PAF buy Super Hornet or even F-16. That way you can squeeze more form those American, rather than the swede....

Ya i know but i guess the Government does not want a repeat of the F8 purchase (great 35 fighters we got and the third operator of said fighter which was considered by many as the greatest asset we have at the time and which many PAF pilot said all of us dream of flying one and many made great careers flying one but due to limited budget and coast of operation and the last nail to the coffin was the Mt. Pinatubo eruption which killed the F8 fleet again its funny you mention the F18s because before the Asian Crisis hit and the exchange rate was like 1 is 20 we were just like this with the Gripen as a replacement for the F8s and the F5s we were considering buying F18 A and b's but the crisis hit and that went down the water like heart beat too bad.

Just sum up i guess the government want to buy the old stocks or even get some NG strong possibility but C and D would be good again the Government made it clear that we get stock which new but never use through again G2G (government to government transactions) but again its too far off to be sure i mean its phase 3 a decade at best we still not done with Phase 1 (upgrades and rehabilitation of base, equipment and capabilities, personnel equipment etc) and now thanks to our Chinese aggression rushing to Phase two (buying of replacement equipments and buy new equipment and some big items (24 project in line up) and Phase three more big ticket items like fighters missiles , surface ships and submarines, tanks and other land equipment etc a long way to go. I wish those guys have already done this earlier.

 

[jhungary]

Ya i know but i guess the Government does not want a repeat of the F8 purchase (great 35 fighters we got and the third operator of said fighter which was considered by many as the greatest asset we have at the time and which many PAF pilot said all of us dream of flying one and many made great careers flying one but due to limited budget and coast of operation and the last nail to the coffin was the Mt. Pinatubo eruption which killed the F8 fleet again its funny you mention the F18s because before the Asian Crisis hit and the exchange rate was like 1 is 20 we were just like this with the Gripen as a replacement for the F8s and the F5s we were considering buying F18 A and b's but the crisis hit and that went down the water like heart beat too bad.

Just sum up i guess the government want to buy the old stocks or even get some NG strong possibility but C and D would be good again the Government made it clear that we get stock which new but never use through again G2G (government to government transactions) but again its too far off to be sure i mean its phase 3 a decade at best we still not done with Phase 1 (upgrades and rehabilitation of base, equipment and capabilities, personnel equipment etc) and now thanks to our Chinese aggression rushing to Phase two (buying of replacement equipments and buy new equipment and some big items (24 project in line up) and Phase three more big ticket items like fighters missiles , surface ships and submarines, tanks and other land equipment etc a long way to go. I wish those guys have already done this earlier.

Well, fair enough, then I guess may the good one wins and hope you guys are good with your purchase

 

[Zero_wing]

Well, fair enough, then I guess may the good one wins and hope you guys are good with your purchase

You and me both thanks again sir

 

[p3avi8tor69]

actually the maintenance of the Plane is one of the most cost effective in the world that's why its being consider compare to the F16 and the other gen 4.5 on current use today plus the load out of the fighter and its dependability and it already have a super cruise ability and it can take off in short runways in pag-asa island this would be prefect for the PAF since we have more airfields than airbases and we have have a lot of islands to hide them and we can land this things on short roads excellent as a guerrilla style tactics and this settings this would be prefect for the Philippines i think we getting the Thailand deal or maybe the Czech deal but its in Phase 3 sir its being listed as a candidate fighters being considered for punches and that can take at less a decade or two to do (currently we are still in the end of Phase one and rushing to go to phase two with the recent chinese incursions and arrogance

Yeah sure, spoken by a kid who knows nothing about his country's armed forces. This Gripen thing was just musings by some PAF officials who were pissed at the US. They were pissed because the US had the opinion that PAF does not have the operational capability to maintain fighter jets as evidenced by the utter failure in the F-8 and F-5 programs and to some extent the C-130 program (Although PAF have made recent progress by returning 2 C130's to airworthiness). So kid stop trying to look cute. I will call your B.S.

 

[Fsjal]

Zero_wing, do you not know how hard maintaining a plane is. If the Philippines can't maintain an old, 1960's plane, then a modern fighter jet would last a day before breaking.

Looks like US needs to send airmen to train Filipino airmen who does not have skills to maintain and look after modern planes.