Pakistan's New F-16 Block 52 vs SU 30 MKI.

[tahir195]

I don't care about the radars. The R-77 vs AMRAAM is the the big what if. The Falcon can hold its own in BVR, or air to air. But the SU-30MKI bombs better and has a higher endurance. Lets say the Falcon has a even chance. The Flankers or IAF still outnumber PAF, easily, ontop of that the Falcons can only hold a defensive postion due to the increasing air shield of India. Longer range of SAMS means that India doesn't need to send aircraft to deal with aircraft. S-300 SAMs have a estimated range of 200 km. SAMS are also catching up. Ontop of that the range of indian missiles from ballistic to cruise are stocking up on the border. Cold START could just might as well be a realise of artillery to dystroy Pakistani defence assets.

in this case PAKISTAN also got HQ-9 & HQ-16 better than S-3600 and remember it is easy to detect su-30 rather than F-16

and the thread is open for air to air or dog fight scenario don't involve sams in to this

 

[abdulbarijan]

in training excercise cope india 04 indian mig 21 defeated f-16 and f-15.. so mig 21 is superior to f-16 and f-15.

you don't understand what i said.
read this articles written by some professionals, it will helps you to understand. and one more thing, china also uses su 30, but they didn't want any jf-17s. if you think that china just reject jf-17 over an inferior plan su 30. then i don't want to say anything to you
Sukhoi Flankers - The Shifting Balance of Regional Air Power

Well thank you for negating your very own argument --- suffice to say you wont mention Red flag 08 here, but my entire point revolved around your assumption of A vs B vs C, and the conclusion of A being better then C because A is better than B and B is better than C which you yourself negated right now ....

As far as the JF-17 is concerned, you seem to miss the obvious sarcasm in my post, but I guess I'll play along for a while, you see while the fanboys at your side continue to boost away at how absolutely awesome the IAF is, the facts are a bit grimmer in reality, in the past decade where we "officially" didn't posses the BVR capability your airforce and all your media was bantering on about how the IAF would carry out surgical strikes, and we all know how that went ....

Lets be real for a second though, nobody serious on here doubts the fact that IAF possesses technological and numerical superiority over PAF, but will that translate in to an air victory if the two air forces were to go on head to head ?? -- and that is the million dollar question -- whose answer everybody wants to know, but cant unless an air war does occur and nobody wants that ---

indian air force will never send mig-21 to engage paf top end fighters in pakistan air space, it will be a combination of PAK FA(it will introduced in 2018), su 30 mki, and mig 29 then rafael and tajes will play a ground attack role. mig 21 may act as interceptor(migs are going to retair in 2017) which will fly within the indian air space.

Wow, a very good strategy --- just 1 little problem here --- Its based on the assumption that 3 new platforms WILL join the IAF in the immediate future (2-3 years), which in view of the recent history is quite unlikely --

But I would like to seriously ask you this question, how are 300 odd Mig-21's in the IAF going to be replaced in 2 years while your LCA project happens to be in shambles, Russia is still busy testing PAK-FA and your MMRCA "mother of all deals" has been cut from 126 jets to 36 ...

 

[airmarshal]

Shouldnt the comparison be between MiG-29 and F-16? Su-30 MKI is a different class of fighter jet.

It would be better if both sides leave jingoism for another thread and just compare the machines.

 

[The_Sidewinder]

Well thank you for negating your very own argument --- suffice to say you wont mention Red flag 08 here, but my entire point revolved around your assumption of A vs B vs C, and the conclusion of A being better then C because A is better than B and B is better than C which you yourself negated right now ....

As far as the JF-17 is concerned, you seem to miss the obvious sarcasm in my post, but I guess I'll play along for a while, you see while the fanboys at your side continue to boost away at how absolutely awesome the IAF is, the facts are a bit grimmer in reality, in the past decade where we "officially" didn't posses the BVR capability your airforce and all your media was bantering on about how the IAF would carry out surgical strikes, and we all know how that went ....

Lets be real for a second though, nobody serious on here doubts the fact that IAF possesses technological and numerical superiority over PAF, but will that translate in to an air victory if the two air forces were to go on head to head ?? -- and that is the million dollar question -- whose answer everybody wants to know, but cant unless an air war does occur and nobody wants that ---

A sane reply. We never know for sure till these aircrafts meets each other in the battlefield.

Wow, a very good strategy --- just 1 little problem here --- Its based on the assumption that 3 new platforms WILL join the IAF in the immediate future (2-3 years), which in view of the recent history is quite unlikely --

But I would like to seriously ask you this question, how are 300 odd Mig-21's in the IAF going to be replaced in 2 years while your LCA project happens to be in shambles, Russia is still busy testing PAK-FA and your MMRCA "mother of all deals" has been cut from 126 jets to 36 ...

I think till now only 120 odd bisons are in service which are bvr capable. MMRCA has been cut down to 36 for the moment but rest asured a minimum of 6 squadrons will be inducted taking into account aquisition history of IAF. About Pak-fa part , we all know till Chineese J31 or J20 close to become operational, theres no need for IAF to get rusty about FGFA. But plans are already in place to fast track FGFA project. If applied well it can become a masterstroke on DMs part.

 

[Agent_47]

another invisible problem that is plaguing the IAF at the moment gives us a momentary edge to capitalize upon during this time of transition.

The Indian Air Force’s Big Problem: Not Enough Pilots! | The Diplomat

Yeah, pray for the invisible problem.That is your only chance.
That is a report from "Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence" , they exist to find faults and exaggerate so that we can solve it fast.
Last time the report said that total sq number will dip to 22 in ten years !

 

[kollang]

Well, I think Su-30 fleet of Indian air force is superior to F-16 fleet of Pakistan air force both in quality and quantity.but is it ultimate superiority? I dont think so.

As an historical instance, in 1967 Arabs had superior air force but it was Israel who won the air campaign.they could make a good use of their fighter jets.I am not trying to insult Indians by comparing them with Arabs.I want to remind them that PAF has some highly skilled pilots and their F-16 block 52s can give them all necessary tools in a combat.plus dont forget that they may get some J-10Bs which are very advanced and usefull.

Anyway IAF will receive Rafale and PAKFA very soon.those fighters will definitely turn the table.

 

[kaykay]

I think more appropriate comparison would be between Mig-29UPG/Mirage 2K5 and F-16 block 52.

 

[Storm Force]

To be honest the F16 both the block52/ and the MLU fighters are very dangerous opponents.

WHATS MORE THE PAF has great experience in using them.

For me although they only no 73 PLANES they are 70% OF THE PAF capability.

IF IAF is to break the PAF and win air supremacy then they have to take out the bulk of the falcons..

Not easy but I have serveral reasons for thinking it can be done.
___________________________________________________________________________________
1. The IAF have today over 200 OPERATIONAL su30mki . despite the RCS disadvantage its a beast of fighter.

Tvc twin engines ,pesa radars, israeli elta jammers. mix of infa red & semi active BVRs , HMS and IRST as standard. .

its a beast so much in its huge airframe.

2. The MIG29 smt & Mirage2000/5 and the new MIG29K give IAF another 150 PLATFORMS THAT ARE if not equal dare I say very close to the formidable falcons...

That makes the ratio 350 IAF top line fighters V 73 falcons = imo too much for even the brilliant PAF pilots...

3. THE JFT thunder imo is not anywhere close to quality maturity brute power of any of the

Falcons PAF.
Su30mki, Mirage 2000/5 mig29k or SMT.

I AM NOT BELITTLING the Thunder but it lacks in some seious ways.

It will be over powered by the twin engine russiuan flankers/mig29

And will technology inferior to the upgraded RC400/MICA combo with new French HMD on the Mirage2000/5

" FALCONS IS WHAT WILL BREAKTHE IAF ONSLAUGHT" if it happens

 

[Matrixx]

Shouldnt the comparison be between MiG-29 and F-16? Su-30 MKI is a different class of fighter jet.

It would be better if both sides leave jingoism for another thread and just compare the machines.

yes I agree.... MiG-29 and F-16 are in same class and use similar engines

Well thank you for negating your very own argument --- suffice to say you wont mention Red flag 08 here, but my entire point revolved around your assumption of A vs B vs C, and the conclusion of A being better then C because A is better than B and B is better than C which you yourself negated right now ....

As far as the JF-17 is concerned, you seem to miss the obvious sarcasm in my post, but I guess I'll play along for a while, you see while the fanboys at your side continue to boost away at how absolutely awesome the IAF is, the facts are a bit grimmer in reality, in the past decade where we "officially" didn't posses the BVR capability your airforce and all your media was bantering on about how the IAF would carry out surgical strikes, and we all know how that went ....

Lets be real for a second though, nobody serious on here doubts the fact that IAF possesses technological and numerical superiority over PAF, but will that translate in to an air victory if the two air forces were to go on head to head ?? -- and that is the million dollar question -- whose answer everybody wants to know, but cant unless an air war does occur and nobody wants that ---



Wow, a very good strategy --- just 1 little problem here --- Its based on the assumption that 3 new platforms WILL join the IAF in the immediate future (2-3 years), which in view of the recent history is quite unlikely --

But I would like to seriously ask you this question, how are 300 odd Mig-21's in the IAF going to be replaced in 2 years while your LCA project happens to be in shambles, Russia is still busy testing PAK-FA and your MMRCA "mother of all deals" has been cut from 126 jets to 36 ...

yes 2 years are less to replace all Mig 21 but may be in 5 years
in 2 years may be 50 LCA, 30 Rafale, 400 Su30 etc
in 5 Years may be 100 PAK FA, 200 LCA, 36 Rafale 400 Su30, zero Mig 21

 

[special]

But I would like to seriously ask you this question, how are 300 odd Mig-21's in the IAF going to be replaced in 2 years while your LCA project happens to be in shambles, Russia is still busy testing PAK-FA and your MMRCA "mother of all deals" has been cut from 126 jets to 36 ...

mig 21 will be completely replaced with tajes in 4 years. retirement will start from 2017. india will receive pak fa initially, just like SU 30 mk IAF received in 2000. no of MMRCA didn't cut down, negotiation is still in progress. 36 is just for giving enough time for air force for negotiation and to maintain qualitative edge. 36 no. of rafael have noting to do with MMRCA negotiations.

 

[sathya]

in 2 years may be 50 LCA, 30 Rafale, 400 Su30 etc
in 5 Years may be 100 PAK FA, 200 LCA, 36 Rafale 400 Su30, zero Mig 21

mate had you followed our defense forces, u should know by now that even in emergency acquisitions, timeline you have given is not possible..

by 2020 , we can be sure to get

40+ LCAs mk1
36+ Rafales
All Su 30 mki s i think = 278

we should consider our-self lucky if MODI does a Paris in Moscow ! and get a PAK FA before 2020.

if will be far fetched to even to predict after 2020.

 

[Windjammer]

During an exercise between J-11s and JF-17s, the Thunder would repeatedly pick up the huge RCS of the clean J-11 before it detected the smaller fighter, by that time JF-17 would have already launched a simulated missile attack and broken off. What to say of an engagement between the subjects. Does anyone have a clue the size of RCS the MKI generates even in the clean configuration.

 

[abdulbarijan]

mig 21 will be completely replaced with tajes in 4 years. retirement will start from 2017. india will receive pak fa initially, just like SU 30 mk IAF received in 2000. no of MMRCA didn't cut down, negotiation is still in progress. 36 is just for giving enough time for air force for negotiation and to maintain qualitative edge. 36 no. of rafael have noting to do with MMRCA negotiations.

yes I agree.... MiG-29 and F-16 are in same class and use similar engines


yes 2 years are less to replace all Mig 21 but may be in 5 years
in 2 years may be 50 LCA, 30 Rafale, 400 Su30 etc
in 5 Years may be 100 PAK FA, 200 LCA, 36 Rafale 400 Su30, zero Mig 21

There is an obvious pattern here, it involves day dreaming, wet dreaming and delusions ---

Last I heard the full order of 272 MKI aircrafts was supposed to be fulfilled by 2019 thanks to the delays etc, the 5th generation PAK-Fa was delayed and even with "fast tracking" do you really think you could produce 100 examples of a jet in 5 years which isn't even currently in service with its manufacturer , LCA hasn't even achieved its FOC yet and you've already replaced your Mig-21's with it in 2017 ---

I mean like, optimism is good but what you guys are suggesting is that your airforce will induct more fighter jets in 5 years then it has in 2 decades combined and that too involves jets that haven't even put in service by their manufacturers as yet or are still struggling with their clearances---


Air Force likely to get entire Sukhoi-30MKI fleet by 2019 | Business Standard News
LCA's Certification to be Slightly Delayed -The New Indian Express
T-50 PAK-FA fighter jet project with Russia hits turbulence : North, News - India Today

 

[sathya]

There is an obvious pattern here, it involves day dreaming, wet dreaming and delusions ---

Last I heard the full order of 272 MKI aircrafts was supposed to be fulfilled by 2019 thanks to the delays etc, the 5th generation PAK-Fa was delayed and even with "fast tracking" do you really think you could produce 100 examples of a jet in 5 years which isn't even currently in service with its manufacturer , LCA hasn't even achieved its FOC yet and you've already replaced your Mig-21's with it in 2017 ---

I mean like, optimism is good but what you guys are suggesting is that your airforce will induct more fighter jets in 5 years then it has in 2 decades combined and that too involves jets that haven't even put in service by their manufacturers as yet or are still struggling with their clearances---


Air Force likely to get entire Sukhoi-30MKI fleet by 2019 | Business Standard News
LCA's Certification to be Slightly Delayed -The New Indian Express
T-50 PAK-FA fighter jet project with Russia hits turbulence : North, News - India Today

i agree with you, but look at the quality of aircrafts we ll get after 2020

tejas mk2 = falcons standard, in numbers will become the baseline plane
pak fa = stealth beast
more Rafales + or -

and i have not mentioned about super sukhoi 30 upgrades now.
since not much credible info available right now.

 

[abdulbarijan]

i agree with you, but look at the quality of aircrafts we ll get after 2020

tejas mk2 = falcons standard, in numbers will become the baseline plane
pak fa = stealth beast
more Rafales + or -

and i have not mentioned about super sukhoi 30 upgrades now.
since not much credible info available right now.

Too many ifs and buts and too many projects at once --

Look at the number of programs your defense industry is running, super sukhoi, MMRCA, LCA and then the FGFA and we've seen delays in each and every one of them, now you can talk about the quality of the product, which is not really in doubt, I mean the MKI is superior to anything the PAF fields today, but what you fail to realize is that -- with your regular delays you don't just damage your own airforce, you in turn present a window of opportunity to PAF which in a limited budget has negated practically every major advantage the IAF held over it in the past decade i.e from BVRAAM's to force multipliers like AWACS or C4i etc.

With that being said, I see the general attitude towards the JF-17 from the Indian side and I know for a fact that you guys don't think much of it, and I know that there are some in our side that would compare it with an F-22 if they had to, I dont know if you guys realize it or not, either way the JF-17 has been a game changer -- now the PAF has an aircraft with mid tier 4th generation capabilities which can replace its old aircrafts in a very cost effective way and provide us with a generation leap over what we previously fielded (F-7's, A-5's or Mirage III/V's) -- so the overall ability of the PAF is not only growing, but its growing in a very cost effective way, not only that but its a safe bet because it is virtually sanction proof, which provides us with the opportunity to invest in other projects like the chinese stealth project etc. finally closing the technological gap that the IAF was able to put thanks to our inefficiencies and ineffectiveness in the lost decade of the 90's.