Pakistan's New F-16 Block 52 vs SU 30 MKI.

[Icarus]

Maybe.... by just declaring WAR, perhaps?
Funny world ..... this!

I wanted to know his ideas about how he believes that Mig-21s, Mig-29s and Mirage 2000s can incapacitate the entire PAF, its a far fetched assertion but I thought I'd hear the boy out none the less.

lol, at the time pak air force have 150 JF-17 toys and 70 f-16, indian air force will have 270 su 30mkis.
su 30 mkis are much superior in capability. SU 27, the basic model of the su 30 is developed to counter F-15, which is a heavy fighter with more capable than f-16. so your statement is just an imagination. your f-16 are no mach for su-30 and rafael jets. indian air force s technologically and numerically superior to PAF

The Mki has a 50km lock advantage over the F-16 which as anyone will tell you, boils down to split seconds in the air. Its not a huge margin to count on, ultimately, it boils down to a number of factors because the MKI and BLK52 are pretty evenly matched. Your argument on the SU-27 design bases heavily on the assumption that there will be a dog fight, the chances of that happening are next to impossible in today's world.
So, if a BLK52 and MKI square off, it will depend heavily on who has the home advantage and who has more of their birds up in the air.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

wanted to know his ideas about how he believes that Mig-21s, Mig-29s and Mirage 2000s can incapacitate the entire PAF, its a far fetched assertion but I thought I'd hear the boy out none the less.

I have made my point and ruffled many feathers

But I stand by my assertion

Theoretically and mathematically
As on Today We can win win even without Su 30MKI as per military simulation

Of COURSE we will suffer more losses

But real war is not fought like that ; the idea is to use maximum force to
minimise losses on our side

 

[special]

The Mki has a 50km lock advantage over the F-16 which as anyone will tell you, boils down to split seconds in the air. Its not a huge margin to count on, ultimately, it boils down to a number of factors because the MKI and BLK52 are pretty evenly matched. Your argument on the SU-27 design bases heavily on the assumption that there will be a dog fight, the chances of that happening are next to impossible in today's world.
So, if a BLK52 and MKI square off, it will depend heavily on who has the home advantage and who has more of their birds up in the air.

su 30 mki have is more advanced than f-16 in every parameters.
like radar range, detection range. IRST, more weapons carrying capability, speed, maneuverability, electronics warfare capability, you name it.. in every field SU 30 mki is superior to f-16.

 

[Icarus]

I have made my point and ruffled many feathers

But I stand by my assertion

Theoretically and mathematically
As on Today We can win win even without Su 30MKI as per military simulation

Of COURSE we will suffer more losses

But real war is not fought like that ; the idea is to use maximum force to
minimise losses on our side

1. You failed to answer my question.
2. The highlighted contradiction highlights a flaw in your own argument.

su 30 mki have is more advanced than f-16 in every parameters.
like radar range, detection range. IRST, more weapons carrying capability, speed, maneuverability, electronics warfare capability, you name it.. in every field SU 30 mki is superior to f-16.

1. By F-16, I hope we are mutually referring to the BLK52.
2. Many of the parameters that you have mentioned are indeed slated in the MKI's favour but again correspond to the same point that I raised earlier that they are decisive only in a dog fight, the precedent for which in the BVR age is negligible.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

The caveat being AS on Today ie with a Fleet strength of 76 F 16 And 60 JF 17 in PAF

With PAF adding more BVR capable JF 17 and IAF retiring its Mig 21 Bison by 2020

This EQUATION will change

I am cognizant of this fact

Therefore Su 30 MKI will have to participate in the battle

And if more F 16 are added to PAF ; we will need more Su 30 MKI

 

[The Great One]

The Mki has a 50km lock advantage over the F-16 which as anyone will tell you, boils down to split seconds in the air. Its not a huge margin to count on,

Try this. 2 minutes to fighter pilot.
Escapa!

 

[Icarus]

The caveat being AS on Today ie with a Fleet strength of 76 F 16 And 60 JF 17 in PAF

With PAF adding more BVR capable JF 17 and IAF retiring its Mig 21 Bison by 2020

This EQUATION will change

I am cognizant of this fact

Therefore Su 30 MKI will have to participate in the battle

And if more F 16 are added to PAF ; we will need more Su 30 MKI

That's a more suitable argument, yes both the PAF and IAF are undergoing a definitive phase as they take a quantum leap in terms of the generation of jets that form the backbone of their air forces and India's acquisition of the Rafael will surely tip the scales overwhelmingly in their favour, but another invisible problem that is plaguing the IAF at the moment gives us a momentary edge to capitalize upon during this time of transition.

The Indian Air Force’s Big Problem: Not Enough Pilots! | The Diplomat

 

[Stephen Cohen]

1. You failed to answer my question.
2. The highlighted contradiction highlights a flaw in your own argument.

You are right on Both counts

However it is NOT prudent on my part to tell How it can be done

There is no contradiction

If you recall the entire SU 30 MKI fleet was grounded for some time some time back

This ignited my curiosity and I had to find the answers to the question

" What if there is NO Su 30 MKI available for a while "

 

[special]

Many of the parameters that you have mentioned are indeed slated in the MKI's favour but again correspond to the same point that I raised earlier that they are decisive only in a dog fight, the precedent for which in the BVR age is negligible.

BVR fights, su 30 can carry more weapons that f-16 and the radar coverage of su- is much grater than f-16. so the fist shoot, first kill is in favor of mki.

Sukhoi Flankers - The Shifting Balance of Regional Air Power

 

[Icarus]

Try this. 2 minutes to fighter pilot.
Escapa!

I did 15 seconds on my third attempt, but please elucidate how this fits into the argument?

 

[Stephen Cohen]

That's a more suitable argument, yes both the PAF and IAF are undergoing a definitive phase as they take a quantum leap in terms of the generation of jets that form the backbone of their air forces and India's acquisition of the Rafael will surely tip the scales overwhelmingly in their favour, but another invisible problem that is plaguing the IAF at the moment gives us a momentary edge to capitalize upon during this time of transition.

The Indian Air Force’s Big Problem: Not Enough Pilots! | The Diplomat

Let me tell you one thing which is AS true as I am Alive

The Indian Armed forces DO not believe in Transparency when it comes to disclosing their strengths
they believe in OBFUSCATION

This is derived from our Epic Maha Bharat
There is a Term in Maha Bharat " Ashwatthama is DEAD "

This statement is true ; Half truth and a PLAIN LIE all at the same time

This is what our Armed Forces practice to keep the enemies guessing

 

[Icarus]

BVR fights, su 30 can carry more weapons that f-16 and the radar coverage of su- is much grater than f-16. so the fist shoot, first kill is in favor of mki.

Sukhoi Flankers - The Shifting Balance of Regional Air Power

Granted, but I already made mention of this in one of my earlier posts that this model works on the oversimplified assumption that two pilots will meet in the sky and settle things man to man whereas the situation in the air is much more complex and further compounded by the presence of AWACS and ground radars in addition to the full gamut of birds in the sky. In the end, any air to air engagement will be influenced heavily by the who's territory it is being fought on.
Secondly, the argument has slowly shifted to the MKI whereas my original question was aimed at Stephen about how he feels that the Migs 21 and 29 along with Mirage, incapacitate the entire PAF.

Let me tell you one thing which is AS true as I am Alive

The Indian Armed DO not believe in Transparency when it comes to disclosing their strengths
they believe in OBFUSCATION

This is derived from our Epic Maha Bharat
There is a Term in Maha Bharat " Ashwatthama is DEAD "

This statement is true ; Half truth and a PLAIN LIE all at the same time

This is what our Armed Forces practice to keep the enemies guessing

True, deception is a great tool is standoffs and is practiced universally.

 

[The Great One]

I did 15 seconds on my third attempt, but please elucidate how this fits into the argument?

Fighter pilot reaction times are counted in milliseconds. To say that a 50km detection range advantage 'boils down to split seconds in the air. Its not a huge margin to count on' is sheer baloney. That too when the said fighter pilot is most likely going to be a WSO, that too when he is accompanied by numerous other birds. who can all take the shot and easily turn back (I've seen MKI taking seconds to do an 180, although obviously at subsonic and low FL).

The Indian Armed DO not believe in Transparency when it comes to disclosing their strengths
they believe in OBFUSCATION

Since you are apparently a civvie just like the rest of us, can it then be assumed that you too haven't seen the full' strengths' and are merely talking out of your ***.

 

[abdulbarijan]

lol, at the time pak air force have 150 JF-17 toys and 70 f-16, indian air force will have 270 su 30mkis.
su 30 mkis are much superior in capability. SU 27, the basic model of the su 30 is developed to counter F-15, which is a heavy fighter with more capable than f-16. so your statement is just an imagination. your f-16 are no mach for su-30 and rafael jets. indian air force s technologically and numerically superior to PAF

I like your approach here -- the assumption being

- Su-30 is better than SU-27 which was developed to counter the F-15 which in turn is a more capable fighter then the F-16.

Now the reason that I say that I like your approach is because, PAF was amongst the first airforces in the world to have actually gotten simulated kills over the F-15's back in the late 70's (1978 to be precise and the exercise was Shahbaz 78, where we used our F-6 (Mig-19's) and Mirages to achieve some kills on the F-15's) -- and add to that many exercises with the RSAF where we have achieved many simulated kills against the F-15's. Even our non Mlu'd F-16's are far more capable then Mirages, F-6's (too bad they are not in service any more) or F-7's and recently we've known that JF-17 when it was first inducted did go up against our old falcons and "repeatedly beat them"

so following the same script that you did, you know how a defeats b and b defeats c, so A must be superior to C -- the conclusion looks somewhat like this

Since F-15 was defeated by our old mirages/F-6's which are inferior to F-16's which in turn were repeatedly beaten by the JF-17's , and since F-15's answer was the SU-27 by the Russians --- hence just like the MKI, the thunder is superior to the SU-27!!!!

There is a biological reference to such conclusions --- It's called a "wet dream"

Have a nice day

 

[Icarus]

Fighter pilot reaction times are counted in milliseconds. To say that a 50km detection range advantage 'boils down to split seconds in the air. Its not a huge margin to count on' is sheer baloney. That too when the said fighter pilot is most likely going to be a WSO, that too when he is accompanied by numerous other birds. who can all take the shot and easily turn back (I've seen MKI taking seconds to do an 180, although obviously at subsonic and low FL).

Yes but also consider the that the opposing side similar characteristics to boot and at super sonic speeds will overcome the lock time difference before the enemy birds turn back and release their missiles, afterwards its a game of dodging the BVRAMs whilst still trying to inch closer for more dependable engagement at about 100 to 70km distance.
Yes the MKI can flat out and make a complete 180 practically in the same spot, but in an aerial engagement, that leaves it vulnerable to attack and thus a pilot will never try that in a combat situation, where movement means you're still alive and a moment still can end in disaster.