What's new

F-35 to get new radar, the AN/APG-85, in massive upgrade initiative

F-22Raptor

ELITE MEMBER
Joined
Jun 19, 2014
Messages
16,980
Reaction score
3
Country
United States
Location
United States
After a mysterious radar designation emerged online in news stories about the F-35 Lightning II program, the internet quickly began debating whether it was a typo or a new capability altogether. Now, The War Zone has official confirmation that the fifth-generation stealth fighter will, in fact, be getting a new radar designated as the AN/APG-85.

One of the first mentions of the AN/APG-85 appeared in a Defense News article published in April of last year. Reporter Stephen Losey noted that $921 million had been added to the U.S. Air Force’s wishlist for Fiscal Year 2023 (FY2023) to procure seven more “Block 4 F-35As with the APG-85 radar from Lot 17.” Then, in a separate article authored last December, Losey wrote of the radar again in the same context. The references were later highlighted and questioned by the @MIL_STD Twitter account.

The War Zone reached out to both the F-35 Joint Program Office (JPO) and Lockheed Martin, for any information about this puzzling new designation. While we’re still waiting to hear back from Lockheed Martin, the JPO did respond and offered what they could without revealing classified details.

“The U.S. Air Force, Navy, and Marine Corps are jointly developing and integrating an advanced radar for the F-35 Lightning II, which is capable of defeating current and projected adversarial air and surface threats,” said the F-35 JPO. “This advanced radar will be compatible with all variants of the F-35 aircraft.”

To clarify whether this meant that all F-35 A/B/C variants from all blocks would be compatible with the new radar or if only Block 4 A/B/C variants would be, The War Zone followed up with the JPO. Their response explained that the AN/APG-85 is currently slated to be installed only on all Block 4 A/B/C jets. This would also line up with Air Force FY2023 unfunded priority list presentation slides, cited by @MIL_STD on Twitter as well, that make note of the radar along with the same aforementioned Block 4 F-35 procurement effort.

The JPO's response went on to add that "details on modification plans for earlier lot aircraft are not available at this time," meaning whether or not it's possible for pre-Block 4 F-35s to be modified with the new radar is unclear at this time. Other details, like who will be making the AN/APG-85, have also yet to be disclosed.

The F-35's existing AN/APG-81 is produced by Northrop Grumman, and the company was awarded the contract to build it in 2001. AN/APG-81 is a solid-state active electronically scanned array (AESA) that succeeded the F-22’s AN/APG-77, and according to the Northrop Grumman site, “over 3,000 AN/APG-81 AESA radars are expected to be ordered for the F-35, with production to run beyond 2035 including large quantities of international orders.”

Along with what we now know to be its new AN/APG-85 radar, all three F-35 A/B/C variants will be undergoing a massive modernization effort over the next few years. Known as Block 4 upgrades, some of these improvements remain classified but others are at the very least known to include a major upgrade to the jet's Distributed Aperture System(DAS) and Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS), the integration of a host of new weapons like the GBU-53/B StormBreaker precision-guided bomb, and major enhancements to the aircraft's electronic warfare suite. These are just some of the updates that are known about, as tweaks to the airframe and stealth coatings are also possible.

On top of that, before all of these changes can be made, the F-35’s core processor, memory unit, and panoramic cockpit display system must be revamped. The Defense Department is calling this effort Technology Refresh 3 (TR-3), and it essentially seeks to upgrade the jet’s current computing system, TR-2, with one more capable of handling all of the new hardware and software that will be integrated under Block 4.

In all, Block 4 will introduce dozens of new upgrades for the F-35 that combine to make a far more capable and sustainable aircraft than what is flying today, and now we know the AN/APG-85 will be a critical component of this evolution, too.
Lockheed Martin and the Defense Department actually just finalized a massive deal worth $30 billion to begin delivering upgraded F-35s.

Under the contract, Lockheed Martin will be manufacturing up to 389 modernized fighter jets for the U.S. military and international customers consisting of 145 Lot 15 F-35s and 127 Lot 16 jets with the option for 126 Lot 17s to be delivered to Finland, Belgium, and Poland. According to Lockheed Martin, the aircraft from all three batches will come equipped with the TR-3 hardware upgrade, but the full Block 4 package (for lack of a better term) won't hit until Lot 17, or at least that's the goal.

As for what the AN/APG-85 will bring to the table over its predecessor, we just don't know. But there have been significant advances in AESA technology since the F-35 was designed. A Gallium Nitride (GaN)-based system is very likely to be a major facet of this improvement, which could drastically increase the F-35's radar range and resolution. The radar's ability to support more dynamic electronic warfare tactics would probably also be a key factor. Beyond these glaring probabilities, we can only imagine that a radar enhancement that demanded a new designation will have some pretty incredible tricks up its sleeve.

As it stands, the AN/APG-85 is just one of the many moving parts that make up the ongoing F-35 facelift, and it will be interesting to see how it integrates with the fleet now that we know the capability is real. It will be some time until then, as it seems the radar will be rolled out on the same timeline as Block 4, which is currently slated to wrap in 2029after multiple delays, but The War Zone will certainly be keeping an eye out for developments in the meantime.

 
After a mysterious radar designation emerged online in news stories about the F-35 Lightning II program, the internet quickly began debating whether it was a typo or a new capability altogether. Now, The War Zone has official confirmation that the fifth-generation stealth fighter will, in fact, be getting a new radar designated as the AN/APG-85.

One of the first mentions of the AN/APG-85 appeared in a Defense News article published in April of last year. Reporter Stephen Losey noted that $921 million had been added to the U.S. Air Force’s wishlist for Fiscal Year 2023 (FY2023) to procure seven more “Block 4 F-35As with the APG-85 radar from Lot 17.” Then, in a separate article authored last December, Losey wrote of the radar again in the same context. The references were later highlighted and questioned by the @MIL_STD Twitter account.

The War Zone reached out to both the F-35 Joint Program Office (JPO) and Lockheed Martin, for any information about this puzzling new designation. While we’re still waiting to hear back from Lockheed Martin, the JPO did respond and offered what they could without revealing classified details.

“The U.S. Air Force, Navy, and Marine Corps are jointly developing and integrating an advanced radar for the F-35 Lightning II, which is capable of defeating current and projected adversarial air and surface threats,” said the F-35 JPO. “This advanced radar will be compatible with all variants of the F-35 aircraft.”

To clarify whether this meant that all F-35 A/B/C variants from all blocks would be compatible with the new radar or if only Block 4 A/B/C variants would be, The War Zone followed up with the JPO. Their response explained that the AN/APG-85 is currently slated to be installed only on all Block 4 A/B/C jets. This would also line up with Air Force FY2023 unfunded priority list presentation slides, cited by @MIL_STD on Twitter as well, that make note of the radar along with the same aforementioned Block 4 F-35 procurement effort.

The JPO's response went on to add that "details on modification plans for earlier lot aircraft are not available at this time," meaning whether or not it's possible for pre-Block 4 F-35s to be modified with the new radar is unclear at this time. Other details, like who will be making the AN/APG-85, have also yet to be disclosed.

The F-35's existing AN/APG-81 is produced by Northrop Grumman, and the company was awarded the contract to build it in 2001. AN/APG-81 is a solid-state active electronically scanned array (AESA) that succeeded the F-22’s AN/APG-77, and according to the Northrop Grumman site, “over 3,000 AN/APG-81 AESA radars are expected to be ordered for the F-35, with production to run beyond 2035 including large quantities of international orders.”

Along with what we now know to be its new AN/APG-85 radar, all three F-35 A/B/C variants will be undergoing a massive modernization effort over the next few years. Known as Block 4 upgrades, some of these improvements remain classified but others are at the very least known to include a major upgrade to the jet's Distributed Aperture System(DAS) and Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS), the integration of a host of new weapons like the GBU-53/B StormBreaker precision-guided bomb, and major enhancements to the aircraft's electronic warfare suite. These are just some of the updates that are known about, as tweaks to the airframe and stealth coatings are also possible.

On top of that, before all of these changes can be made, the F-35’s core processor, memory unit, and panoramic cockpit display system must be revamped. The Defense Department is calling this effort Technology Refresh 3 (TR-3), and it essentially seeks to upgrade the jet’s current computing system, TR-2, with one more capable of handling all of the new hardware and software that will be integrated under Block 4.

In all, Block 4 will introduce dozens of new upgrades for the F-35 that combine to make a far more capable and sustainable aircraft than what is flying today, and now we know the AN/APG-85 will be a critical component of this evolution, too.
Lockheed Martin and the Defense Department actually just finalized a massive deal worth $30 billion to begin delivering upgraded F-35s.

Under the contract, Lockheed Martin will be manufacturing up to 389 modernized fighter jets for the U.S. military and international customers consisting of 145 Lot 15 F-35s and 127 Lot 16 jets with the option for 126 Lot 17s to be delivered to Finland, Belgium, and Poland. According to Lockheed Martin, the aircraft from all three batches will come equipped with the TR-3 hardware upgrade, but the full Block 4 package (for lack of a better term) won't hit until Lot 17, or at least that's the goal.

As for what the AN/APG-85 will bring to the table over its predecessor, we just don't know. But there have been significant advances in AESA technology since the F-35 was designed. A Gallium Nitride (GaN)-based system is very likely to be a major facet of this improvement, which could drastically increase the F-35's radar range and resolution. The radar's ability to support more dynamic electronic warfare tactics would probably also be a key factor. Beyond these glaring probabilities, we can only imagine that a radar enhancement that demanded a new designation will have some pretty incredible tricks up its sleeve.

As it stands, the AN/APG-85 is just one of the many moving parts that make up the ongoing F-35 facelift, and it will be interesting to see how it integrates with the fleet now that we know the capability is real. It will be some time until then, as it seems the radar will be rolled out on the same timeline as Block 4, which is currently slated to wrap in 2029after multiple delays, but The War Zone will certainly be keeping an eye out for developments in the meantime.

Meanwhile, SAAB has been developing a GaN based AESA fighter radar for years on an order from the United States. The SAAB EriEye-ER GaN based AESA radar is already in production for the GlobalEye since several years.
 
Meanwhile, SAAB has been developing a GaN based AESA fighter radar for years on an order from the United States. The SAAB EriEye-ER GaN based AESA radar is already in production for the GlobalEye since several years.
Meanwhile,the first operational US AESA radar using GaN MMIC was built by Northrop Grumman (2018). The first operational (2020) AESA fighter radar with GaN MMIC is the APG-79(V)4 for USMC F/A-18 C/D manufactured by Raytheon. Typically, the Pentagon looks at capabilities vs cost of fleet wide replacement before operational deployment decisions are made. We aren't going to throw away our first generation AESA radar simply because the next best thing is available.

You speak as if the US was waiting on the Swedes to bring GaN to her shores. Besides the key differentiator for the AN/APG-85 is NOT the GaN module but it's new ability to perform co-operative target detection and tracking. Which means a gaggle of F-35's equipped with AN/APG-85 becomes a multi-static airborne radar with the ability to detect LO aircraft that relies on shaping within its area of coverage - of course, the effectiveness depends on the orientation and the spread of F-35's within the coverage area.
 
Meanwhile,the first operational US AESA radar using GaN MMIC was built by Northrop Grumman (2018). The first operational (2020) AESA fighter radar with GaN MMIC is the APG-79(V)4 for USMC F/A-18 C/D manufactured by Raytheon. Typically, the Pentagon looks at capabilities vs cost of fleet wide replacement before operational deployment decisions are made. We aren't going to throw away our first generation AESA radar simply because the next best thing is available.

You speak as if the US was waiting on the Swedes to bring GaN to her shores. Besides the key differentiator for the AN/APG-85 is NOT the GaN module but it's new ability to perform co-operative target detection and tracking. Which means a gaggle of F-35's equipped with AN/APG-85 becomes a multi-static airborne radar with the ability to detect LO aircraft that relies on shaping within its area of coverage - of course, the effectiveness depends on the orientation and the spread of F-35's within the coverage area.
SAAB has been doing cooperative warfare with Gripen for 25 years…
A flight of 4 Gripens can fuse the sensors and perform different EW tasks that protects the whole flight. One of the techniques used to detect stealth is to fuse the deflected radar waves from one transmitter received by multiple receivers.
A Gripen can use the radar info of another Gripen to fire a radar homing missile, while its own radar is turned off.

It is a fact that the United States is paying for the development of the SAAB GaN based radar. Do You think they would be doing that if SAAB was not ahead?
 
Last edited:
SAAB has been doing cooperative warfare with Gripen for 25 years…
A flight of 4 Gripens can fuse the sensors and perform different EW tasks that protects the whole flight. One of the techniques used to detect stealth is to fuse the deflected radar waves from one transmitter received by multiple receivers.
A Gripen can use the radar info of another Gripen to fire a radar homing missile, while its own radar is turned off.

It is a fact that the United States is paying for the development of the SAAB GaN based radar. Do You think they would be doing that if SAAB was not ahead?
passive geolocation isn't what the F-35 is doing that's so 1990's, it's useless when the enemy is operating under EMCON state 4 anyway. Here all F-35's in the formation is emitting and each is able to identify and process the radar returns from the other. So if the transmitted energy from one F-35 is directed away from the transmitting F-35 by an enemy VLO platform and is directed toward another F-35 it will result in the hostile VLO being detected.

SAAB was just cheaper and won the contract it has nothing to do with SAAB being ahead.
 
passive geolocation isn't what the F-35 is doing that's so 1990's, it's useless when the enemy is operating under EMCON state 4 anyway. Here all F-35's in the formation is emitting and each is able to identify and process the radar returns from the other. So if the transmitted energy from one F-35 is directed away from the transmitting F-35 by an enemy VLO platform and is directed toward another F-35 it will result in the hostile VLO being detected.

SAAB was just cheaper and won the contract it has nothing to do with SAAB being ahead.
Which is what Sweden studied 25 years ago.
One Gripen transmits, and the other Gripen receives.
The result is fused together for a shared radar picture.
 
Last edited:
SAAB has been doing cooperative warfare with Gripen for 25 years…
A flight of 4 Gripens can fuse the sensors and perform different EW tasks that protects the whole flight. One of the techniques used to detect stealth is to fuse the deflected radar waves from one transmitter received by multiple receivers.
A Gripen can use the radar info of another Gripen to fire a radar homing missile, while its own radar is turned off.

It is a fact that the United States is paying for the development of the SAAB GaN based radar. Do You think they would be doing that if SAAB was not ahead?
Which is what Sweden studied 25 years ago.
One Gripen transmits, and the other Gripen receives.
The result is fused together for a shared radar picture.
Yet here we are with the F35 being more advanced than what sweden has.
 
Yet here we are with the F35 being more advanced than what sweden has.
The Gripen is more advanced in several aspects than the F-35.
Example is better missiles, use of GaN and a modern software architecture.
That is how things work. It is also vulnerable to a strike on its base. Norway and Denmark will have a single base for their F-35. They cannot easily disperse their aircraft, so you can destroy their air forces with two missiles.
Obviously, the US will improve the F-35 over time and/or introduce things in the 6th generation fighters.
 
Last edited:
The Gripen is more advanced in several aspects than the F-35.
Example is better missiles, use of GaN and a modern software architecture.
That is how things work. It is also vulnerable to a strike on its base. Norway and Denmark will have a single base for their F-35. They cannot easily disperse their aircraft, so you can destroy their air forces with two missiles.
Obviously, the US will improve the F-35 over time and/or introduce things in the 6th generation fighters.
LOL Gripen is fuckign trash. F-35 is literally miles ahead.
 
LOL Gripen is fuckign trash. F-35 is literally miles ahead.
Is that why it takes half a year to release a new software version on the F-35 and you can release a new software version several times per day on the Gripen?
BTW, due to quality problems with F-35 software, the program office wants to change that to one new release per year.

Meteor is flying on Gripen C since several years. When will F-35 be equipped with Meteor?

F-35 power electronics is based on GaAs. nuff said…

Gripen was using cooperative networking 25 years ago. The US is experimenting with it now.

Gripens autocannon is working. The autocannon is connected to the radar and when asked, the flight control software will steer the aircraft into a valid firing solution and kill the aircraft ahead.

Gripen will not be put out of action by destroying a single base.

Gripen has killed F-15, F-16, F/A-18, F-22 and Eurofighters on exercises.
AFAIK, no exercises vs Rafale.
The F-22 was a problem during the first Red Flag. Then SAAB redesigned the radar with improved stealth detection features and managed a kill.
It has never met F-35 so this remains to be seen.

Since Gripen and F-35s are unlikely to meet in real combat, we will never have a real result.

If You meet 8 x Su-35, would you prefer
2 x F-35s with AMRAAMs
1 x F-35 and 2 x Gripen E/Meteor the latter flying with Radar Off being fed data by the network?
 
Last edited:

Back
Top Bottom