Pakistan Revolution: Another lie busted! Drones still flying!

[Jackdaws]

Please go and start your own forum then with those absurd rules.

As the forum team has indicated on multiple occasions - every member, regardless of faith, race or nationality, has every right to offer his views on any issue here, provided they abide by the forum rules.

But just to answer your question - my entire immediate family lives in Pakistan, I have plenty at stake in what happens there.

Self- Delete - Off Topic

 

[Leader]

Please go and start your own forum then with those absurd rules.

As the forum team has indicated on multiple occasions - every member, regardless of faith, race or nationality, has every right to offer his views on any issue here, provided they abide by the forum rules.

But just to answer your question - my entire immediate family lives in Pakistan, I have plenty at stake in what happens there.

I gave my opinion after seeing low quality opinions being given above...whch clearly shows how little concern outsiders have in whats going on in PAKistan.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I gave my opinion after seeing low quality opinions being given above...whch clearly shows how little concern outsiders have in whats going on in PAKistan.

If you disagree with an opinion, then offer your own arguments to illustrate why you disagree and why that opinion is flawed, rather than calling for others to stop posting.

How do we know that it is not your opinion and your views that are 'low quality' and flawed?

This is a discussion forum after all - the whole point is to provide a platform for people to voice opinions and others to agree or challenge them.

---------- Post added at 02:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:07 PM ----------

You deleted my comment saying it is "off topic". How so? Isn't it fair to compare any impending Civil Disobedience Movement with previous one and take into account the standing of their progenitors in present day Pakistan?

No - get back to the topic please.

 

[Awesome]

Two questions:

1. Has the PPP running the Federal Government ordered the Army and Air Force to shoot down the drones?

Assuming that they haven't but I assume they also haven't said "Please let them kill Pakistanis". The protection of your airspace is a given. Furthermore it goes back to overthrowing Zardari first, because Zardari is a US puppet and Kiyani is now believed to be one too. So remove Zardari and see what happens. Imran has has shamed the COAS he has not called for his resignation, yet.

2. Have the Army and Air Force refused to follow orders from the elected government on this issue and refused to shoot down the drones?

The problem emerges when you look at Pakistan as a fake democracy. Is Kayani running the government like a Kaakar government? Put a gun to everyone's head and make them do and say whatever he wants to?

Only if the answer is yes to both questions is the Army responsible, and only if the answer is yes to both questions is Imran Khan not calling for unconstitutional actions by Gen. Kiyani, since shooting down the drones without the GoP's authorization would be unconstitutional on his part.

Kiyani himself is the one who stoked the issue by giving the statement intolerable - there by giving the impression there is no Pakistani sanctioning to the Drones, there by automatically reverting to the defaults.

And lets face it, when the revolution happens it won't be in a court of law. Either you get straight, or else our avaam isn't as shareef as the Egyptians, it will also break into everyone's "houses" and do some literal overthrowing. So hiding behind semantics may would not necessarily work. Moreover let me bring you back again, that the emphasis was on overthrowing Zardari, and the Kiyani statement was a mockery over his Oscar winning performance of indignation over the last post-Raymond Davis drone attack.

When Pakistanis kicked out Musharraf and demanded, and elected, the PPP and PML-N governments, they shifted responsibility to the elected government. Now if the elected government is not governing the way Pakistanis want, the response should be to resort to peaceful protest to make the government change its policies, or kick all PPP and PML-N politicians out of office in the next elections. I fail to see how Gen. Kiyani can be held responsible in the current setup, since he is acting in support of the elected government's policies.

The kicking out would be more in the form of overthrowing than anything peaceful. The option of voluntarily quitting has been given to them which is quite democratic once you can see you have lost the confidence of the nation. If they refuse to do so, the nation can opt to overthrow them as well. It won't be process oriented but at that time no one would really care.

The ISI is not a LEA or prosecution agency - it has no jurisdiction laying down any charges. It could be asked to support a case through use of its resources, but the responsibility for registering a case and prosecuting it lies with the Federal and Provincial governments - they did not need ISI support for that. The PPP and PML-N simply had no interests in losing all of the US aid and economic support Pakistan receives.

They could have presented a charge, given a statement other than "They don't know Davis". Again the issue is clear when you think in terms of intent. If they wanted to, they could've ensured that they make the Espionage claim sure. There would be enough pressure on the DAG to ensure that the espionage charge stuck.

The intent was to play ball with the Americans, probably took a bribe as well (hey thats what I would conclude if they won't disclose what really happened). In that case when Zardari and Sharif are done being overthrown, its quite logical to assume the masses would look towards them next.

 

[Leader]

If you disagree with an opinion, then offer your own arguments to illustrate why you disagree and why that opinion is flawed, rather than calling for others to stop posting.

How do we know that it is not your opinion and your views that are 'low quality' and flawed?

This is a discussion forum after all - the whole point is to provide a platform for people to voice opinions and others to agree or challenge them.

---------- Post added at 02:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:07 PM ----------

agreed.......

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Assuming that they haven't but I assume they also haven't said "Please let them kill Pakistanis". The protection of your airspace is a given. Furthermore it goes back to overthrowing Zardari first, because Zardari is a US puppet and Kiyani is now believed to be one too. So remove Zardari and see what happens. Imran has has shamed the COAS he has not called for his resignation, yet.

The government could not even prosecute a CIA contractor, I think you know the answer to 'will it order the PA and PAF to shoot down US aircraft.

Protection of airspace is a given, but wikileaks indicate that an unofficial agreement between Pakistan and the US exists on the issued of drone strikes - I believe Zardari was quoted quite explicitly in favor of US operated drone strikes. As such, there is no doubt that the GoP needs to come clean with the Pakistani people and issue a clear command to shoot down the drones if the US does not stop drone strikes in Pakistan, and we can hold Kiyani and Rao Qamar Suleiman (ACM) responsible if those orders are no implemented.

The problem emerges when you look at Pakistan as a fake democracy. Is Kayani running the government like a Kaakar government? Put a gun to everyone's head and make them do and say whatever he wants to?

Look - the Army has always derived its power and influence through the support of the people, and typically it has influenced the elected governments to support hawkish foreign and nuclear policies, that have the support of most Pakistanis.

The Army will have no power if it tries to force an elected government to implement policies that Pakistanis find deeply unpopular - Zardari and Nawaz Sharif would probably welcome such an attempt by the Army, since they could run to the media and bash it endlessly, and the Army would be helpless in the face of public pressure and outrage.

There can be little doubt that the PPP at least is supporting drone strikes, and the Army is going along under Kiyani.

Kiyani himself is the one who stoked the issue by giving the statement intolerable - there by giving the impression there is no Pakistani sanctioning to the Drones, there by automatically reverting to the defaults.

Sure, and Gillani seconded him - so lets see Gillani issue an official statement for the US to end drone strikes or have them shot down. I will hold Kiyani and Suleiman responsible then if they refuse to implement the GoP's orders.

And lets face it, when the revolution happens it won't be in a court of law. Either you get straight, or else our avaam isn't as shareef as the Egyptians, it will also break into everyone's "houses" and do some literal overthrowing. So hiding behind semantics may would not necessarily work. Moreover let me bring you back again, that the emphasis was on overthrowing Zardari, and the Kiyani statement was a mockery over his Oscar winning performance of indignation over the last post-Raymond Davis drone attack.

If you want proper change, then focus on the correct institution - the government. The Army is not running the show. Pressure the government to comply with the demands of Pakistanis, and then the ball is in the court of the military - will they respect the decision of the civilian government to take on the US or not? Until then there is no justification for criticizing the Army - they are not in power anymore, and we should stop acting like they are and force our elected leadership to be honest and straight with us.

The kicking out would be more in the form of overthrowing than anything peaceful. The option of voluntarily quitting has been given to them which is quite democratic once you can see you have lost the confidence of the nation. If they refuse to do so, the nation can opt to overthrow them as well. It won't be process oriented but at that time no one would really care.

Please see my previous posts on the fact that 'kicking out' does not have any feasible plans for a replacement government.

They could have presented a charge, given a statement other than "They don't know Davis". Again the issue is clear when you think in terms of intent. If they wanted to, they could've ensured that they make the Espionage claim sure. There would be enough pressure on the DAG to ensure that the espionage charge stuck.

Do we want a proper democracy where every institution functions as it should or do we want to continue playing these games with ISI/Army subterfuge and lack of transparency in governance? Hold the PPP and PML-N responsible, they are the ones elected to do these jobs. If the ISI/Army does not cooperate, summon them to court and point it out and shame them and remove the leadership of those institutions for not complying with the law

Enough of this 'cloak and dagger' nonsense - lets focus on the fact that Pakistanis elected these people to govern, and they are failing miserably and we need to kick them out and bring in fresh faces. When the Army refuses to listen to the civilian government that Pakistanis elected, we can hurl , abuse and criticism at them as well. But not right now, when the Army is in fact acting constitutionally.

 

[sparklingway]

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Imran Khan is sitting at home ordering people to make noise which does not even make any difference and people just getting beaten up while mothers daughters sisters getting humiliated. Davis case has gained him few more sympathy... what a cheap politician IK is.
In reality this shameless ****** called IK does not want PPP/zardari to go yet cuz he knows no other political party is ready to take the hot seat.
I just wish every single Pakistani politician vanishes somehow.

 

[Kompromat]

 

[Kompromat]

 

[rubyjackass]

@Black Blood: Dude!!!

 

[Awesome]

Imran Khan is sitting at home ordering people to make noise which does not even make any difference and people just getting beaten up while mothers daughters sisters getting humiliated. Davis case has gained him few more sympathy... what a cheap politician IK is.
In reality this shameless ****** called IK does not want PPP/zardari to go yet cuz he knows no other political party is ready to take the hot seat.
I just wish every single Pakistani politician vanishes somehow.

You can say that about me, but Imran Khan is on the streets! So you're wrong again.

 

[Awesome]

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Junnon say aur ishq say milti hai AZAADI.

 

[Awesome]