Pakistan Revolution: Another lie busted! Drones still flying!

[desiman]

what the heck will you launch a civil disobedience movement against ? This will mess up the already fragile situation in Pakistan, Imran Khan is really doing this to further his own political career.

 

[Veritas]

We are ready to throw out American boot lickers and take back Pakistan and Afghanistan too we will also take Bahrain if need be

What.. What... Bahrain? I hope this is a hyperbole.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I am willing to give IK a chance as well, as MB said, while he may not pursue an isolationist foreign policy when in charge, he certainly will be more honest, though Pakistan's problems need more than just 'honest' leadership to resolve, they need leadership willing to make painful decisions that will help Pakistan's economy long term and reduce its dependence upon foreign economic assistance.

Honest and populist leadership and policies may not do much when it comes to fixing the deep structural flaws in Pakistan's governance and economy.

That said though, Imran Khan would be better served (and possibly the nation would be better served) if he uses the current anger to mobilize his (and likeminded politicians) party at a grassroots level and gain enough seats to form a coalition government in the next elections.

Given the most recent polling data, if this government resigned today and held snap elections, we would still have the same PML-N, PPP political actors in place, and the same old game of 'musical chairs' being played between the PPP and PML-N.

Overthrowing the government without any viable plan to form a new, fresh government is extremely shortsighted.

 

[Leader]

Nonsense. Exteme Hyperbole, what was decided was in the larger interest of Pakistan. Imran Khan has no base he can launch anything he wants. Nobody is going to follow.
If people are so angry they should start preparing for the next election and defeat the people in office through the ballot. There is no need to mess up the economy any further with this civilian disobedience.

best interest of PAKistan is to save her self respect so that we can talk with our head ups. !!

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

So all along since 2008 IK waited for Davis case and then called for a change? Why didnt he launch a protest since the first day Zardari took office? No, little background noise does not count.

These protests calling for removal of the current government are useless. IK is not going to win any where close to enough seats to form a government - the PPP and PML-N will be back, and probably switch spots, which leaves us where we are right now, yet again.

If there must be 'mass protests to remove the current politicians' then they need to also call for a different system of government, probably Presidential, which would at least allow the politically active middle class to vote for a single individual they feel is the right choice, and not worry about their vote not counting because of the parliamentary system of government.

 

[Awesome]

Asim, just to be clear, Imran Khan is calling for Kiyani to take unconstitutional actions right here in the article you posted:

While addressing the protest rally launched against release of Killer American, Raymond Davis in Islamabad on Friday, he expressed that how long COAS General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani would stand aside and observe innocent Pakistanis dying; urging that General Kayani must stand up because it was duty of Pakistan army to provide security to the lives of all the Pakistanis.​

Actually that is in reference to not attacking and shooting the drones down. He was mocking the comic statement of "intolerable" drone attack. All of a sudden now they are intolerable when the Americans showed you the finger right after they got their man? Perhaps Kiyani was shocked that he got a whipping from America after disobeying the master.

It is a joke that PAF bases have been put on high alert. Even if you ignore the most popular theory that drones are taking off from PAF base Shahbaz (and perhaps PAF base is on high alert if its own base would launch drones), even if you ignore that, we have seen PAF take down Israeli made UAVs when India launched one into Lahore.

All of a sudden acting like it happened out of control of the PAF, is sad. Its thinking like your nation is a bunch of idiots, and perhaps we even are.

It would be a lot more respectful if Kiyani owns up like Musharraf did that he was threatened to get an whooping and he had to get in line with the Americans. Don't make excuses. Or if he did any deal like even if he got a few more F-16s, then he needs to come forward with that.

Gen. Kiyani can only be held responsible if he acted against the elected government's orders - whether those orders related to a 'popular' policy or 'unpopular' policy - that is how representative government is supposed to work. The military is not running the country now, the PPP and PML-N are, and so long as the Army is acting on their directions, the Army cannot be blamed - they are acting constitutionally.

Even if we negate the most popular perception that he put a gun to everyones head and made them do what CIA-ISI deal brought forward, even if we ignore that, then the blame shifts back to Federal government and Punjab Provincial government.

See in truth, all parties did a perfectly orchestrated collaborated dance. I only wish these people would show such coordination in all other matters of Pakistan because apparently we can find results in 1 day in Pakistan when everyone works together. The fact that Kayani is hand in glove comes from the deals made by the ISI.

If the ISI wanted it could've raised the issue of the espionage charge, instead ISI came out with the a statement "We don't know who Raymond Davis is".

 

[Leader]

dnt drag army in ur every rant.. its the govt.. f...k ghadaris.

those days are over when one could simply label other as ghadars, I think you should grow up, and should have the courage to prove your point rather that being paranoid and stubborn.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

For Some time now, i have had my suspicion's about what ails Pakistan. The Davis affair and the latest outburst against your own armed forces just says that the population is dead tired now. Tired of making sense of whats going on around it. And in the end, you are ending up pointing your fingers all over the place.

Your list of Demands, nowhere mentions any action from the populace. Did you ask your brethren to show that extra religious tolerance? ... Did you tell them to stop corruption by refusing to give bribes?. Or to join the public service and change whats rotten?

The New Dawn your country seeks, is possible with self actions of your people. Neither me or anyone else can tell you whats best for Pakistan. We may gloat and laugh at your misery. But to attain that moon, it needs to be the sweat of your citizens, not just talks.

For you to understand "my demands" and then to throw it all back at me so cleverly, it would do you good to understand how politics works...

1. When someone bribes someone... who is supposed to grab the culprit and punish him?

2. Why does someone bribe someone in the first place? Should nt there be something called merit?

3. When someone shows religious intolerance, who is supposed to grab him and punish him?

My dear you are making the classic mistake of things getting right from the bottom up... it works the other way around... the leadership has to correct itself... I would recommend you the book of Ibn Khuldoon Al Muqadimah where he explains this concept in detail... (highly recommended... you ll also understand the reason for the war on terror when you study the section on "Tribes"

People adopt the deen of their rulers... not the other way around...

For me personally... I really am sick and tired... and my constant recommendations to the powers that are going to be is to NOT show any mercy to the people who are doing this to our land at this moment in time... we know who our enemies are... the problem is our hands are tied... we cannot use violence to correct things as it is against the teachings of Islam... if there were permission, you d be surprised to see how far our approach goes... we would nt have hesitated to gun down quite a few people involved in this davis affair...

for now we have to chew our lips in anger and not do anything... this is not the time we are told

besides violence does not solve political diseases... it promotes them and propagates them...

 

[Awesome]

what the heck will you launch a civil disobedience movement against ? This will mess up the already fragile situation in Pakistan, Imran Khan is really doing this to further his own political career.

Pakistan's situation is slowly going bad to worse. The current cycle cannot go on, so its best to rip it off like a band aid. Sure things would get messy but its a necessary thing, the foundations upon which Pakistan exists today are totally hollow. They need to be broken and rebuilt.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Does anyone see the irony here? A Civil Disobedience Movement is the brainchild of Gandhi - a figure much reviled in Pakistan.

Gandhi is probably the only Hindu in history that I have some respect for... dont generalize

 

[Leader]

for all those who are currently not living in pakistan, have no right to talk about pakistan or her issues !! it is a matter that only concerns those living here...

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Actually that is in reference to not attacking and shooting the drones down. He was mocking the comic statement of "intolerable" drone attack. All of a sudden now they are intolerable when the Americans showed you the finger right after they got their man? Perhaps Kiyani was shocked that he got a whipping from America after disobeying the master.

Two questions:

1. Has the PPP running the Federal Government ordered the Army and Air Force to shoot down the drones?
2. Have the Army and Air Force refused to follow orders from the elected government on this issue and refused to shoot down the drones?

Only if the answer is yes to both questions is the Army responsible, and only if the answer is yes to both questions is Imran Khan not calling for unconstitutional actions by Gen. Kiyani, since shooting down the drones without the GoP's authorization would be unconstitutional on his part.

It would be a lot more respectful if Kiyani owns up like Musharraf did that he was threatened to get an whooping and he had to get in line with the Americans. Don't make excuses. Or if he did any deal like even if he got a few more F-16s, then he needs to come forward with that.

When Pakistanis kicked out Musharraf and demanded, and elected, the PPP and PML-N governments, they shifted responsibility to the elected government. Now if the elected government is not governing the way Pakistanis want, the response should be to resort to peaceful protest to make the government change its policies, or kick all PPP and PML-N politicians out of office in the next elections. I fail to see how Gen. Kiyani can be held responsible in the current setup, since he is acting in support of the elected government's policies.

If the ISI wanted it could've raised the issue of the espionage charge, instead ISI came out with the a statement "We don't know who Raymond Davis is".

The ISI is not a LEA or prosecution agency - it has no jurisdiction laying down any charges. It could be asked to support a case through use of its resources, but the responsibility for registering a case and prosecuting it lies with the Federal and Provincial governments - they did not need ISI support for that. The PPP and PML-N simply had no interests in losing all of the US aid and economic support Pakistan receives.

 

[Leader]

and yes IK is the only leader that we see among politicians as uncorruptable, true, honest, and reliable and most importantly credible !

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

for all those who are currently not living in pakistan, have no right to talk about pakistan or her issues !! it is a matter that only concerns those living here...

Please go and start your own forum then with those absurd rules.

As the forum team has indicated on multiple occasions - every member, regardless of faith, race or nationality, has every right to offer his views on any issue here, provided they abide by the forum rules.

But just to answer your question - my entire immediate family lives in Pakistan, I have plenty at stake in what happens there.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

These protests calling for removal of the current government are useless. IK is not going to win any where close to enough seats to form a government - the PPP and PML-N will be back, and probably switch spots, which leaves us where we are right now, yet again.

If there must be 'mass protests to remove the current politicians' then they need to also call for a different system of government, probably Presidential, which would at least allow the politically active middle class to vote for a single individual they feel is the right choice, and not worry about their vote not counting because of the parliamentary system of government.

Exactly. Thats why I am against IK point scores game which he is using for his political benefits. If he wants to be a honest leader then he must show honesty by not deceiving people that he can change Pakistan's policies and western dictation over night if given a chance today.