Pakistan Keen To Purchase F-16 Fleet From Norway: Mukhtar

[SEAL]

Oh! I forgot Israel, India will help you (In UN) If Israel attacks Pakistan...
[/COLOR]

If India can't attack Pakistan after 26/11 how can israel? Its another myth created by Bharatis that israelis will attack Pakistan to save indian a$$.

 

[Mani2020]

@niaz

your post was good one but i also liked what araz said

Going for used f-16's will project a very negative image to possible jf-17 customers regarding its capabilities .On one hand we are convincing the world that jf-17 is a low cost 21st century modern aircraft which is equal to f-16 block 40 and even i have red articles of officials openly saying that jf-17 avionics are on par with block 52 ,i hope you will also have come across any kind of such articles .Then when we go for these used f-16's shouldnot it create question marks in the buyers mind? I have already heard people claiming that few countries are saying they are not going to induct jf-17 untill and unless PLAAF inducts it.
Remember we are new in this field so its always bit difficult to purchase anything from a new player.

Its like i m manufacturing a car and offering you that car while on the other hand i m looking to buy a used car which i already claimed to be at par with wat i m producing ,wouldn't it put some questions in your mind?

 

[Comet]

This is excellent news. These aircraft will surely help PAF in the long run (given the experience PAF has with F-16s)

 

[REHAN NIAZI FALCON]

@niaz

your post was good one but i also liked what araz said

Going for used f-16's will project a very negative image to possible jf-17 customers regarding its capabilities .On one hand we are convincing the world that jf-17 is a low cost 21st century modern aircraft which is equal to f-16 block 40 and even i have red articles of officials openly saying that jf-17 avionics are on par with block 52 ,i hope you will also have come across any kind of such articles .Then when we go for these used f-16's shouldnot it create question marks in the buyers mind? I have already heard people claiming that few countries are saying they are not going to induct jf-17 untill and unless PLAAF inducts it.
Remember we are new in this field so its always bit difficult to purchase anything from a new player.

Its like i m manufacturing a car and offering you that car while on the other hand i m looking to buy a used car which i already claimed to be at par with wat i m producing ,wouldn't it put some questions in your mind?

i totally agree with you, how can we win trust of others when we ourself are lacking trust in capabilities of jf-17 and prefering old f-16 over it.
same mony that we will spent on f-16 can be used for buying better avionics for jf-17. cos jf-17 is a bird in our hand....

 

[F86 Saber]

What is the need to buy it??? China is frnd of Pakistan, Afghanistan is weak enough to attack, If Iran attack USA will take care of, Turkmenistan and other will never attack you...


All border dispute with India is solved. (P.S. Kashmir is not border dispute)..To save Pakistan from India You have enough Nuke (5-10 times more than indian nuke (i read this somewhere in PDF)

I think Investing on Costly machines are just waste of money, Better Pakistan Invest heavily in Local infrastructure and Stopping terrorism (Both Good and Bad Taliban)

Oh! I forgot Israel, India will help you (In UN) If Israel attacks Pakistan...

Lolz you sound as optimistic as PTV ..... Let me give you a suggestion, why not you people forget the MMRCA tender and invest rather in supporting your farmers who are committing suicides with numbers in 5 digits every year.

 

[JackTR]

thanks for the analysis and your offer of support so kind of you.. but why is India spending so much on weapons then?
problems with Pakistan are resolved (as you put it)
Bangladesh, Sirilanka, Nepal, Burma & Bhutan are in the back pocket
you are conducting exercises and meetings with China over the border.
so why this craze to amass so much military hardwere? are you preparing of Maha Yudh" with the whole world?

Nope Lol. Not for Maha yudh. just for defence.

And BTW India's defence spending isn't hurting its economic growth, or the ability to tackle poverty.

India doesnt spend as much % of gdp as her neighbours does.
And Infact there is a consensus among social/military commentators that India must increase its defence expenditures. Or atleast spend all of the money sanctioned for the same, which actually India havent been able to do cos of procedural delays and other similar reasons.

 

[alam.saquiba]

thanks for the analysis and your offer of support so kind of you.. but why is India spending so much on weapons then?
problems with Pakistan are resolved (as you put it)
Bangladesh, Sirilanka, Nepal, Burma & Bhutan are in the back pocket
you are conducting exercises and meetings with China over the border.
so why this craze to amass so much military hardware? are you preparing of Maha Yudh" with the whole world?

You got a point, good question...
India has no threat from Pakistan (Army/AF/Navy), or any other country you mentioned... But Look at china...

1. The Chinese aggressive policies and over ambition must be kept in mind, that too when once they back stabbed us (Hind-Chini bhai bhai). Chinese infrastructure at Tibbet, Near arunachal is against India, so for that we need to be prepared.. We need to become at least 75% of defense power than them for defensive stand. 125% for offensive. We are rt now at 45-50% .. we need to add 25-30% more.

2. We are emerging Economic power, here also china's interest are on conflict. We need adequate force to safeguard our Economy....

3. China has border issue with all country (Even Pakistan, Due to which Pakistan gave away a part of Kashmir to china)...

4. China has problem with Japan, Korea (South), Taiwan. Even I heard that they had some issue with Russia... They believe that china's area will be defined as per some Chin/Han dynasty (correction needed)...

 

[alam.saquiba]

Lolz you sound as optimistic as PTV ..... Let me give you a suggestion, why not you people forget the MMRCA tender and invest rather in supporting your farmers who are committing suicides with numbers in 5 digits every year.

Suggestion taken, Will be passed to PM, by the way PM issued some package to help them.. Things will be all right soon.

If India can't attack Pakistan after 26/11 how can israel? Its another myth created by Bharatis that israelis will attack Pakistan to save indian a$$.

Suggestion taken, next time I will ask our PM to attack Pakistan.. Sorry If I hurt your Ego, I read many time that Pakistan believe that Israel want to destroy it, so I mentioned it... If you don feel Israel as enemy, I will remove its name, My personal view is " Israel hardly care bout Pakistan" and we never need any country to defend us (except once, when we were back stabbed)

 

[SEAL]

@niaz

your post was good one but i also liked what araz said

Going for used f-16's will project a very negative image to possible jf-17 customers regarding its capabilities .On one hand we are convincing the world that jf-17 is a low cost 21st century modern aircraft which is equal to f-16 block 40 and even i have red articles of officials openly saying that jf-17 avionics are on par with block 52 ,i hope you will also have come across any kind of such articles .Then when we go for these used f-16's shouldnot it create question marks in the buyers mind? I have already heard people claiming that few countries are saying they are not going to induct jf-17 untill and unless PLAAF inducts it.
Remember we are new in this field so its always bit difficult to purchase anything from a new player.

Its like i m manufacturing a car and offering you that car while on the other hand i m looking to buy a used car which i already claimed to be at par with wat i m producing ,wouldn't it put some questions in your mind?

Thats not the case brother JF-17 have its own importance PAF purchase of old/new F-16s won't affect anything for example Egypt have 200 F-16s but they are potential customer of JF-17.
I love to see 100 F-16s in PAF fleet.

 

[Mani2020]

Thats not the case brother JF-17 have its own importance PAF purchase of old/new F-16s won't affect anything for example Egypt have 200 F-16s but they are potential customer of JF-17.
I love to see 100 F-16s in PAF fleet.

what you had already and what you are trying to have in future both are two different things.

Egypt's main problem is they are not allowed to use bvr missiles on their f-16 by USA that why they are going for alternative also in case of PAF ,Paf is looking for f-16's at a time when jf-17 induction will be on song and potential customers will be keen to know about the capabilities of the bird and at that time going for f-16's that too used one fr5om a third party will be a bit of bother for potential customers

 

[Aamir Hussain]

In my opinion, the global market for JF-17 is as a replacement fighter platform for Mig 21/F-7 and F-5 users.

F-16 is in a different league at this point in time or at least till such time when the definitive version of JF 17 is on the market.

 

[Mani2020]

In my opinion, the global market for JF-17 is as a replacement fighter platform for Mig 21/F-7 and F-5 users.

F-16 is in a different league at this point in time or at least till such time when the definitive version of JF 17 is on the market.

Don't forget that in many cases jf-17 is competing with mig-29, like in case of egypt ,and also if the news of Iran interested in jf-17 is also true then there too we will see competition from Russian makers as Iran was also identified a potential customer for Russian fighters as well.same was in case of Sri Lanka

For that we should have good image of jf-17 in the minds of possible future customers

 

[umair86pk]

niaz..a thought provoking post, thankyou.

Folks have to realize Vipers are the fear of our neighbor, more Vipers more trouble. The quality and performance of American War Machines are exceptional. If our Mirages ROSE upgrades are still going strong I believe these F-16 Vipers are exceptionally well maintained by Norwegian Air Force. We must not let these Airframes go and if we get our hands on them then to some extend we can repair Mirage 2000 saga..
Members should read this.
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article12.html

European Vipers are early As & Bs but they are well maintained and have not flown that much as compared to their US counterparts average age of airframes will be around 4000hrs like they have flown half of their airframe life of 8000hrs without Falcon Up/STAR upgrades which brings the life back to zero hrs and RNoAF Vipers are all MLU types.

 

[notorious_eagle]

I am well aware of that...IAF will easily have more than 450-600 4/4.5 generation plane by 2018-2020 and they will easily be in service till 2030 and beyond....My point is not on that aspect...However do you expect IAF to induct more 4.5 generation planes at around 2018-2020???? These inductions are being done right now and will continue till around 2015-2017 there after we will start looking out for 5 generation planes...We will not be inducting more 4/4.5 generation planes at that time....There is no way PAF can let us phase out all our 3rd generation planes and wait till 2018-2020 to fill in the numbers....JF-17 and F-10 variants are the best bet for PAF and that is what they would be throwing at IAF for counter....F-16's are good but there is a limit to which upgradation can be done on an old horse....Secondly once USAF phase out all their F-16's do you expect upgradations will keep on happening at the same pace???? Please understand there is a reason people are moving on to F-35 and phasing out F-16's....

Sir i was talking about avionics and radar upgrades, also besides that the old horse will be able to fire the latest American missile technology which i would argue is simply the most superior in the world. Even if the US phases out its F16's, the upgrade work will still continue. If you look closely at the F16's operated by the USAF, they are not the best versions of the F16's. Their are enough clients in the world whom would want their F16's serviced and upgraded according to their needs and i am sure LM and NG would happily oblige. Read this thread regarding F16's future:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...evolutionary-advancements-global-outlook.html

You need to look closely who is replacing the F35's with F16's. Turkey and Israel although are purchasing F35's, they are not replacing their F16 Block 52's. Most of the countries that are replacing their F16's such as Netherlands and Italy already have very small fleets and have the cash to purchase the latest weapons.

It seems you are convinced that F-16's upgradation can be done to nth level and it would be able to compete no matter how future technologies shape out...which might be true but i am not sure......

What i am saying is that upgraded F16's are needed to counter India's inventory of Mig 29, Mirage 2000, SU30MKI and MRCA. They are not future technologies and are roughly on the same level as the F16's. For future technologies, lets see what PAF has in store.

You are absolutely correct....However the same scenario is true for the opponents....Secondly a defensive doctrine does not mean there will be no attack in enemy territory....You got to think on those terms as well....Secondly net centric is a pretty cool concept but still one would like to go for newer platforms which can adapt to the ever changing world quicker than their older counterparts....

Their will be attack on the enemy but i doubt it PAF would cross the border considering how well defended the Indian Air Space is. Instead of crossing into the Indian Air Space, PAF will simply launch its stand off weapons with long ranges at Indian positions. A defensive side would always have the advantage if its utilizing AWACS and BVR missiles. Both IAF and PAF posses BVR missiles, but the reason why PAF has an advantage is because they are on the defending side. The threat of having a BVR Missile would force the IAF to change their tactics and planning. As far as adaptability is concerned, F16 is data linked with Link 16 so i dont know what the problem is.

Indeed Gambit is pretty knowledgeable but the manufactures are not novice as well...The sole purpose of this plane is to counter Raptor....If it can't then it will be a failure from Russian POV....For IAF it will still do because none of our adversaries are throwing raptor at us but not for Russia...so i will definitely wait before convincing myself that T-50 is not its worth....

Sir sorry to say i have my utmost doubts that PAK FA will field the same technology of the F22. Are you aware that F22 has an RCS of an ant, by the time your radar picks up the F22, your dead. How can you shoot something which you cannot see? I dont think PAK FA is a failure for the Russians because they know that they cannot produce an airplane that can rival the F22, infact no one can. Not only do the Russians lack the capability to build a plane of that stature, but they lack the funds to do it. The Americans shelled out $60 billion for the development of the F22, i doubt it Russians and Indians combined can put that much money in R&D. The only country that comes to mind is China that can invest that much money, they are also charging ahead with their 5th Generation Aircraft Project. The sole purpose of the PAK FA was never to counter the F22, they are just fan boys who are claiming that PAK FA will be superior to the F22. You just need to take a look at the visuals and arrive at the conclusion that the prototype of PAK FA will have an RCS lower than the SU30, but certinely not as low as of that of the F22.

 

[Storm Force]

Notorius

I AGREE with your point re F16/52 being not far off SU30MKI and equal even better than Mirage2000-5 or mig29smt.

I dont agree that a F16/52 can live with a TYPHOON or F18 super hornet or in deed a Gripen NG. All 3 or these mmrca have Aesa radars and RCS EQUAL TO LESS than third of the FALCON. Not to mention fat better engines with more thrust and power.

Your point about PAK FA not being a F22 equal is a premature argument.

The PAK FA is 8-10 years away from induction and FOC.

ONE LOOK and the plane design and i,m sure even you can see the low observable design not disssimilar to F22.

Engine wise the Russians already prouduce TVC engines ie SU30MKI

That leaves your major doubt on radar weapons and sensor fusion work and electronics.

THIS IS WHERE INDIA COMES INTO PAK FA

If you look at the SU30MKI the reason it ranked higher than any other flanker in the world bar SU35 is the israeli/french influence on the mki cockpit interface and jammers.

PAK FA will be the same for india,s FGFA.

in other words it will include mmrca spin off or israeli sensor fusion/ electronics/jammers etc. ie western influence.

IN TERMS OF ABILITY with a RCS of a golf ball rather than a beach ball su30mki or football F16 Thunder etc the PAK FA/FGFA will be superior to all comers bar F22.

2 OF WORLDS LARGEST ARMED FORCES (russia & india) are about to invest $10 billion to make it get their.

Let me just remind you that the 2 GDPs of Russia & India are close to
( $3 trillion dollars)