Pakistan-Iran-Turkey confederation

[r3alist]

Pakistan is not weak, the government of Pakistan maybe corrupt but the country is not weak.

Pakistan has one of the largest and most powerful armies in the world and is the 7th nuclear power, if Pakistan was weak than India would've taken over Pakistan a long time ago. Remember Indira Gandhi saying that she will throw the two-nation theory down the Indian Ocean, and remember the Indian General in 1965 Indo-Pak war saying that he will have his next drink in Lahore and then invaded Lahore in 1965 and how PAF sent them back to India, and the indian general's wish couldn't come true.

Pakistan is not weak.

military strength is not the only metric to judge power by.

without social, political and economic strength our military power can be nullified and its integrity compromised.

sadly our military power will not save us alone, it can be rendered impotent if we cannot defend ourselves in the other arena's

i think we are seeing this right now in pakistan.

for example a weak economy has left us begging for imf loans meaning are economy is in the hands of an anglo zionits cartel who can dictate our democratic structure which directly impacts our military.

 

[U-571]

this an ingenious idea of ZA bhutto, he was a very clever man.

i think this pak-iran-turkey co operation is an excellent idea. truth as araz has put in, there are some difficulties but if we put our sincere efforts to over come all obstacles to insure the development of this project, it will prove to be a bang of wealth in this region, it will bring closer the world richest nations in terms of geography, culture and economy in future. a good leadership is needed to exploit this much possible aspect. even the world would forget to visit europe and USA.

 

[A1Kaid]

this idea is very appealing however i think we need to provide a stronger cultural basis so as to lay a better foundation for more partnership, remember that the shared european christian identity is what makes the eu strong.

it is for this reason i see a limited future.

turkey is a pro-western, pro-israel nation democracy

iran is a shia theocracy

pakistan is a weak corrupt US sunni satellite



so its plain to see each nation is pushing in different directions and at many juntures we are diametrically opposes to one another, therefore the turks or even the iranian people may not be so keen for one reason or another.


this is ofcourse not a good sign for the future, right now we are united by the threat our shared enemies pose but lets take it in baby steps, economic and cultural trade are great starts, let us help one another prosper.

Poor analysis...

"remember that the shared european christian identity is what makes the eu strong"

No that's not the fundamental aspect that holds Europe together. Europe is secular, and they are not a religious people, what holds them together is proper governance, EU parliament, European "values" such as liberalism, secularism, money/economic inter-dependence, and what we typically see as western culture. So the common "Christian identity" is inaccurate. Yes I know Sarkozy made a comment this is a "Christian club" because that way they can exclude Muslim Turkey, I'm not saying the Europeans don't identity themselves with Christianity, it's just it isn't their common Christian identity that hold them together, but it doesn't hurt them either.

turkey is a pro-western, pro-israel nation democracy

No Turkey is not pro-western, 70+% Turks dislike/hate US (and are strongly against European interest), that's more than Pakistan (which was 68-69%) according to recent international surveys* some sources have higher numbers. Majority of Turks are against joining the EU. Turkey is trying to balance it's relationship with western and eastern nations, is strategic foreign policy. But to suggest Turkey is pro-western is ridiculous. Also Turkey sure as hell isn't "pro-Israel" there military does have military cooperation with them, though the Turkish public is staunchly anti-Israeli. I talk to many Turkish people many of them academics and intelligent people who are well informed about their nation's politics and affairs...

iran is a shia theocracy

Well that's true. But try getting pass the Iranian administration and understand there are a lot of business ties that can be made with the Iranian people. Try exploring the civilian sector of Iran and try not to limit Iran to simply being a "Shia theocracy" there's much more to Iran than that.

pakistan is a weak corrupt US sunni satellite

Pakistan is not weak we have potential. The administration is a cancer and must be removed, and the administration acts as a "US Sunni satellite". Though I understand your sentiment.

* http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/templateC05.php?CID=3098

Here is another survey to analyze at.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/108754/istanbul-attack-underscores-poor-us-image.aspx

 

[r3alist]

i think you are talking in terms of an economic view point so your points are valid, i was talking more in terms of these nations forming a political bloc vis a vis SCO.

No that's not the fundamental aspect that holds Europe together. Europe is secular, and they are not a religious people, what holds them together is proper governance, EU parliament, European "values" such as liberalism, secularism, money/economic inter-dependence, and what we typically see as western culture. So the common "Christian identity" is inaccurate. Yes I know Sarkozy made a comment this is a "Christian club" because that way they can exclude Muslim Turkey, I'm not saying the Europeans don't identity themselves with Christianity, it's just it isn't their common Christian identity that hold them together, but it doesn't hurt them either.

let me clarify, when referring to christianity i meant the shared experience of western christianity was one of the foundation blocks for the eu to form.

another was the renaissance.

the countries that experienced this the most formed the key nations of the eu since a strong cultural foundation in terms of shared experience paved the way for greater economic integrations, its not neccessary but it sure helps, just look at east asia as another example.

No Turkey is not pro-western, 70+% Turks dislike/hate US (and are strongly against European interest), that's more than Pakistan (which was 68-69%) according to recent international surveys* some sources have higher numbers. Majority of Turks are against joining the EU. Turkey is trying to balance it's relationship with western and eastern nations, is strategic foreign policy. But to suggest Turkey is pro-western is ridiculous. Also Turkey sure as hell isn't "pro-Israel" there military does have military cooperation with them, though the Turkish public is staunchly anti-Israeli. I talk to many Turkish people many of them academics and intelligent people who are well informed about their nation's politics and affairs...

i am not referring to the people of turkey, but its leaders/rulers/political elite who are determined to become a european nation to the extent that they behave like beggars in front of the EU, so whilst i acknowledge what you say about the people on another level it is the opposite.

they have a staunchly secular constitution and utterly reject their islamic history. i will only start to consider turkey as being somewhat islamic as soon as they start to reject kemalism which is unlikely for the medium term.

they also have very strong ties with israel, and have co-operation with israel on many fronts including political and military as well as being a member of nato - this certainly makes them distinct in the islamic world.

they have set their sail towards europe, not the islamic east, that is crystal clear, i am not saying pakistan and other muslim nations have no mutual benefits with turkey but lets call it how it is, turkey is pro-western nation seeking to consolidate its future in the west, not islamic world as things stand.

Well that's true. But try getting pass the Iranian administration and understand there are a lot of business ties that can be made with the Iranian people. Try exploring the civilian sector of Iran and try not to limit Iran to simply being a "Shia theocracy" there's much more to Iran than that.

there are plenty of opportunities, however iran will not be happy about an increase of sunni influence in their domain.

Pakistan is not weak we have potential. The administration is a cancer and must be removed, and the administration acts as a "US Sunni satellite". Though I understand your sentiment.

i maintain that until pakistan actually realises its potential and builds itself up economically then it will remain somewhat weak in my eyes.

economic and political weakness can leave you vulnerable, we need full spectrum strength - that is to say social, political, economic and military - before we can start calling ourselves strong.

being militarily strong only rules out an invasion, that benefit diminishes when we are being attacked socially, politically and economically, i say this with the hope people can improve the situation.

 

[Developereo]

Guys,

Good points raised by many people.

- The Shia/Sunni divide will be a major hurdle from both sides. That is why it is important to tone down the religious aspect of this confederation and emphasize the economic, cultural and security aspects. The Arab-Iranian conflict will be the single biggest hurdle since Pakistan is perceived as a Saudi puppet, especially after Gen. Zia. This is why Iran has become friendly to India and Afghanistan, against Pakistan. I don't think the problem is as bad from the Iranian side. As A1Kaid has pointed out, Iran has been helping all Muslims (Sunni/Shia) against non-Muslim enemies. On the Arab streets, Ahmedinijad is more popular than the local dictators.

- Pakistan needs to reform itself economically, socially and culturally first. Nobody wants to date a sick person, and no country will want to join with us as long as we are riddled with religious extremism and a basket-case economy.

- Europe had centuries of sectarian conflict within Christianity, but they eventually get past it, partly by abandoning Christianity in favor of secularism. We need not go that far, but we will need to have a secular government at least. Religion must be removed from political discourse and become a personal matter. This does not mean abandoning our Muslim culture or history -- we should promote it -- but not the stringent religious edicts.

- Turkey is at a crossroads. It has turned towards Europe because the Muslim world is in tatters and has nothing to offer, comparatively. But the Turks have begun to realize that the EU is just playing with them and we need to convince them that Pakistan and Iran can offer them benefits. Certainly we can't compete with Europe in terms of economics or technical and military knowledge, but we can offer them a chance to develop a competing power by pooling our resources. But, like I said, we have to improve our internals and image. Nobody wants to date a sick person.

 

[Fracker]

When ever it comes to unite up muslims.. people comes with the conflicts between different sects. They start dividing people rather then looking up for real solution.. in 1970s ZAB call all ullma conference and call all sect muftis to give some common rules so we can make Pakistani Constitution compliant with Shariah. They given around 36 rules which required to run the state. (Unfortunitly ZAB didn't implemented them, or may be he was also thinking same as you guyz that they will start confronting between each other rather then look towards solution). Similarly bring all muftis of irani shia, pakistani shia and sunnis and bravlis on one stage and ask them for the solution.. I am sure they will give you the solution.. Iran State don't discriminate sunnis there must be some organization inside iran which do that but not Iran. So far i know Ahmadinijaad is pretty nice simple person 100s time better then our president. We have seen in Europe where there was many conflicts, they also had sect barriers, but still they did it.. we can divide in the name of sahaba's (R.A) and Ahl-e-Bait (R.A) BUT can't we unite in the name of Allah and Prophet Muhammad (SAWW)? Think!!

Its easy to say there is no solution and forget the topic, but it requires very courage to bring up issue and solve it.

 

[r3alist]

Guys,

Good points raised by many people.

- The Shia/Sunni divide will be a major hurdle from both sides. That is why it is important to tone down the religious aspect of this confederation and emphasize the economic, cultural and security aspects. The Arab-Iranian conflict will be the single biggest hurdle since Pakistan is perceived as a Saudi puppet, especially after Gen. Zia. This is why Iran has become friendly to India and Afghanistan, against Pakistan. I don't think the problem is as bad from the Iranian side. As A1Kaid has pointed out, Iran has been helping all Muslims (Sunni/Shia) against non-Muslim enemies. On the Arab streets, Ahmedinijad is more popular than the local dictators.

- Pakistan needs to reform itself economically, socially and culturally first. Nobody wants to date a sick person, and no country will want to join with us as long as we are riddled with religious extremism and a basket-case economy.

- Europe had centuries of sectarian conflict within Christianity, but they eventually get past it, partly by abandoning Christianity in favor of secularism. We need not go that far, but we will need to have a secular government at least. Religion must be removed from political discourse and become a personal matter. This does not mean abandoning our Muslim culture or history -- we should promote it -- but not the stringent religious edicts.

- Turkey is at a crossroads. It has turned towards Europe because the Muslim world is in tatters and has nothing to offer, comparatively. But the Turks have begun to realize that the EU is just playing with them and we need to convince them that Pakistan and Iran can offer them benefits. Certainly we can't compete with Europe in terms of economics or technical and military knowledge, but we can offer them a chance to develop a competing power by pooling our resources. But, like I said, we have to improve our internals and image. Nobody wants to date a sick person.

point by point

-this is an interesting scenario, i feel we (and by "we" i mean like minded saudi's, iranians, turks at al) need to explore avenues to promote islamic nationalism and unity but in such a way that it does not become a sunni/shia issue.

the biggest hurdle to this are not the people, but the elites of core states in iran/saudi who want to project their influence - what we really might be hinting at is a (cultural) revolution in both countries, so essentially its the same issue of not offeding the ol' us of a who will no doubt already have a strategy to quash sucn a scenario.

-i agree on this, just for a minute consider pakistans image in the world, it looks pretty bleak, we need to get our house in order, again we have an utterly corrupt man as our leader in this most important time (grassroots revolution anyone?), our image is pretty terrible.


-i disagree with this, once we become completely secular we cannot have the best of both worlds, you cannot be secular AND promote islam, we need a system whereby freedoms/democracy are there however on critical issues we have the ability to avoid the long winded route of democracy, this is ofcourse inbuilt with certain contradictions but pakistani people are not ready for a staunch democracy, some sort of hybrid along what iran has could work.


-i dont believe turkey is at a cross roads, it turned its back on its islamic heritage as soon as it adopted kemalism, this it would need to reverse which would take years.

on the other hand, if pakistan is falling to pieces then that only makes the eu a more atractive option for turkey since the other option is so disjointed.

 

[Developereo]

I am afraid I just don't see Islam as providing a glue to bind Pakistan-Iran-Turkey.

As soon as you mention Islam, the Shia-Sunni divide comes in, and things break down.

Islam can be a part of the picture, but the big incentives would be cultural, economic, geo-political and national security. These have nothing to do with Islam, except that all Muslims face a common enemy in Israel and the West.

I can accept that Iran might be willing to overlook the Shia-Sunni thing, but I don't see such openness coming from Pakistan. Our leaders are strongly entrenched in the pro-Saudi Sunni camp, and our culture seems to be moving away from our Indus roots and towards an Arab identity.

 

[dabong1]

I can accept that Iran might be willing to overlook the Shia-Sunni thing, but I don't see such openness coming from Pakistan.

Pakistan has had more shia leaders then iran has had sunni leaders

Our leaders are strongly entrenched in the pro-Saudi Sunni camp, and our culture seems to be moving away from our Indus roots and towards an Arab identity.

Bhutto was the eldest child of former prime minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, a Pakistani of Sindhi descent and Shia Muslim by faith, and Begum Nusrat Bhutto, a Pakistani of Kurdish descent, similarly Shia Muslim by faith.
Benazir Bhutto - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Asif Ali Zardari belongs to a Shia Muslim, Sindhi Baloch family from Sindh.
Asif Ali Zardari - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[dabong1]

Once the railraod gets going i think the next part should be a 3-4 lane motorway that links all three nations.
The map above with a few modifications i think gives a good guide to go off.

http://www.unescap.org/ttdw/common/tis/ah/Member%20countries.asp

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Develop Pakistan economically and reduce instability and insurgent related violence to develop its 170 million plus market, and start off with selling that market as an incentive for an economic union with certain states.

Once states see the economic benefits of having access to a large market with which they share cultural, religious and social ties, an EU style union might be possible down the road. But the foundation has to be laid in the form of economic ties and an economic union.

Brotherhood and shared cultural/religious/social ties and all is fine, but there is no greater motivator for people than seeing their bottom line being impacted positively through such a proposal.

 

[Developereo]

Brotherhood and shared cultural/religious/social ties and all is fine, but there is no greater motivator for people than seeing their bottom line being impacted positively through such a proposal.

I agree. Like I said, nobody wants to date a sick person.

As long as Pakistan is perceived as riddled with terrorism and a basket case economy, nobody will want to touch us. Even Iran reportedly closed it's border with Pakistan a few months back.

Also, dabong1, thanks for pointing out the Shia influence in Pakistani politics. I didn't know ZAB was Shia. I have nothing against the Arabs. They are the root of our religion, but I just don't see the Arab sheiks diluting their oil wealth with millions of poorer neighbors. Lebanon, Syria and Jordan might be a different story.

But let's start small. Pakistan-Iran-Turkey first.
Or, for the moment, Pakistan's economy first.

 

[A1Kaid]

I agree. Like I said, nobody wants to date a sick person.

As long as Pakistan is perceived as riddled with terrorism and a basket case economy, nobody will want to touch us. Even Iran reportedly closed it's border with Pakistan a few months back.

Also, dabong1, thanks for pointing out the Shia influence in Pakistani politics. I didn't know ZAB was Shia. I have nothing against the Arabs. They are the root of our religion, but I just don't see the Arab sheiks diluting their oil wealth with millions of poorer neighbors. Lebanon, Syria and Jordan might be a different story.

But let's start small. Pakistan-Iran-Turkey first.
Or, for the moment, Pakistan's economy first.

I once posted some suggestions on how Pakistan can literally change it's economic and industrial dynamic.

The fact is, Pakistan does not have a single company that is internationally recognized. Look at Japan, they have Honda, Toyota, Toshiba, Sony, Lexus, Suzuki, Kawasaki, Mitsubishi, Panasonic, and these are companies that easily come to mind. Look at South Korea, they have Samsung, Daewoo, Hyundai, Kia, and more. Let's look at Germany they have Audi, BMW, Volkswagen, Mercedes-Benz, and tons of other high-tech industries and companies.

Truth is we in Pakistan must, I repeat must develop International companies that can compete in the Americas, Europe, and Asia.

What many of you may not know is that many of these companies I named first began as State Enterprises, many of these companies were state-owned and/or received state subsidies.

In the case of Samsung, when it was first launched by Korean Pres. and Gen. Park (1961 to 1979), Samsung originally sold fish and fruits even textiles and after years of Korea developing the company by importing European technology, studying the technology, and institutionalizing the technology and know-how. They began to produce technology and consumer goods, today you will see the name Samsung on Plasma Tv's, mobiles, digital cameras, laptops, mp3 players, radios, printers/scanners, palm-pilots and more...

Once Korea developed Samsung and Samsung was developed enough to compete in foreign markets, it was then privatized.



That should be one of our biggest economic aspirations is to give birth and raise Pakistani companies that will be respected and international recognized. Companies that produces consumer goods and technology and can compete in the world's electronic market.

That has been a keen interest and hope of mine.


The nation of Pakistan has great potential and with sound economic policies and vision we can generate momentum and success.

 

[Developereo]

I agree. We can start small, with cars and motorcycles.

I don't know what happened to Atom car of Pakistan. I don't know if it was completely indigenous or they imported engines.

Also, how hard can it be to design and build a motorcycle engine?
Why don't we have an indigenous motorcycle company?

We have 170 million consumers locally plus decent relations with most of the Middle East. The market is there if we build a decent competitive product.

 

[r3alist]

i totally agree on the economy, it is the most fundamental and basic step towards progression.

if one looks at the current or recent situation, nations which share some sort of shared or common cultural background are most easily able to form a trading bloc to help one another.

the 2 clear examples of this are the eu and the tiger economies/china in east asia.

pakistan/iran/turkey need to work first work out a cultural basis that all 3 are happy to go along with if we want to see this relation go deeper, i think thats key, if the will is there then it can happen easily imo.

but first things first, we need to get our own house in order.