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Pakistan has formally proposed Siachen pullback - India

No withdrawal until AGPL is authenticated as LOC. Some may say we are loosing hundreds of soldiers and hundreds of crores in Siachen, but its better than loosing thousands of soldiers and thousands of crores in an Indo-Pak war tomorrow if Pakistan tries some mis-adventure there after we withdraw.
 
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No need to withdraw. It is a great training ground for mountain and snow warfare. It is sad to have lost so many of our brave soldiers recently but we should not mar their memory by bugging out. Let us learn from our mistakes and tragedies so that we don't make these kind of mistakes in future.
 
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Aman ke ashan is totally BULLSHIT!

Standup on the ice! simple NO De-Militariz Mr Darpook Kiyani General!
 
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If Pakistan wants to withdraw unilaterally from Siachen, it's their call and decision. I don't see why India should be a party to this, especially since that territory was fought hard for and won. Besides, Pakistan can never give us a guarantee that they would not attempt another Kargil and they have given us no reason to believe otherwise either. My take on it is, for now, India should stay and not pull back from Siachen.

Given the state Pakistan is in right now, its perfectly normal to expect them to take initiatives like this, but then again, what's going on over there has nothing to do with us on this side of the border. I don't see the need for India to take such huge steps in warming ties with Pakistan right now. Especially now that our own position in the world is now secure and we are becoming increasingly important to both the world and the West.

If govt. is really thinking of demilitarisation of siachen,than I would suggest it would be better to give siachen to Pakistan than to demilitraze it. In this way we would
First avoid a future war b/w India and Pakistan in which some tribals would capture siachen and then Indian Army would flush them
Second save Pakistan from embarassment of dishonouring its word like in Kargil and before &
Third we would save ourself from becoming a laughing stock in the world who will say fool you once shame on them, fool you again and again shame on you

PS: I am not in favour of demilitrisation
Reason: My reasonable knowledge of history. I can't predict future but I can certainly learn from history.

Making concessions like that to Pakistan is something we don't need to be doing at this point. And if we do start doing that, there will be no end to it. They would expect us to concede more in future. My position is, we should stay and if they want, they can leave. It's their call and we can't influence their decisions.
 
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Talks on Siachen in June, don't expect dramatic result: Antony

Indian position on Siachen unchanged: Antony

There has been no change in India's position on the withdrawal of forces from Siachen, the world's highest and coldest battlefield, and talks are scheduled with Pakistan on the issue June 2, parliament was informed Tuesday.



"Don't know where this confusion has come from. I would like to clarify India's position … we are neither hardening nor softening (position). We are standing then and there," Defence Minister A.K. Antony said while replying to a debate in the Rajya Sabha on the functioning of his ministry.

"Till today, 12 rounds of India-Pakistan dialogue have been held on Siachen and next will be on June 2 … don't expect dramatic decision as it is a very complicated and sensitive issue," he added.

Antony noted that Pakistan has been seeking the demilitarization of Siachen without agreeing to authenticate the actual ground position line (AGPL). India is insisting on this as a prerequisite for withdrawing its forces from Siachen.

"We have not changed position and our position remains same."

On Monday, Antony said in the Lok Sabha: "In view of the recent avalanche resulting in heavy casualties at Siachen, Pakistan has requested India for withdrawal of their respective troops from the region.".....

Indian position on Siachen unchanged: Antony
 
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not an inch the motherland is sacred, how can Pakistanis be prepared to see their mother violated, by giving an inch of the land, to the eternal enemy.
 
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It's a horrible idea; a huge slap to those that died fighting in Siachen. If we had to 'retreat', we should've never went to war. Once you start a war, you either win or lose, retreat is no option.

It is just bs, no govt would survive - giving that concession.
 
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no moving out of siachen,if pakistan wants to move,we should go occupy saltoro.
thats the moronic statement i have ever heared. we can hold our ground but not occupy some one elses just becuase they are out.
this is like i take ownership of your home because you left it
 
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Yawn. Political stunt. Everybody knows the outcome, but Pakistan will end up looking like the better nation.
 
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Yawn. Political stunt. Everybody knows the outcome, but Pakistan will end up looking like the better nation.

More likely, the bitter nation!

No ground to vacate Siachen

Kanwal Sibal

siachen_350_050812023551.jpg

India-Pakistan relations should not be predicated on demands by Pakistan and concessions by India.

Peace with Pakistan is a desirable goal, but peace should be equally desired by both sides and both should contribute to it in equal measure. The burden of making peace should not fall on India while Pakistan retains the freedom to disrupt it at will.

Normalisation of India-Pakistan relations should not be predicated on demands by Pakistan and concessions by India. Historically, Pakistan is not a victim of India's war-mongering; it is India that has suffered Pakistani military aggression and jihadi terrorism. Pakistan is more obliged to convince India of its peaceful intentions rather than the reverse.

Claims

The notion that India as the bigger and stronger country has to be generous with Pakistan is egregious. If this principle should dictate the conduct of international relations then China should be generous towards India on issues that divide us- which it decidedly is not- and the US, as the world's most powerful country, should be making concessions to virtually all others- which it decidedly does not do.

Once again we hear talk about culling the low hanging fruit of Siachen in order to politically enable the Prime Minister to visit Pakistan towards the year end. This agreement will supposedly provide the required substantive outcome that can be jointly celebrated. Why India must make a territorial concession to make its own PM's visit possible and Pakistan need not act on terrorism is not explained.

Those who advocate withdrawal from Siachen - or more appropriately Saltoro as Siachen lies to its east - need to clarify whether we are occupying Pakistani territory. If we are, withdrawal could be mooted. If we are not, then why should we withdraw from our own territory simply because Pakistan contests India's sovereignty over this part of J&K and insists we accept its position? Should such obduracy inspire trust in its intentions?

The 1949 and the 1972 agreements delineate the LOC till NJ9842, with the line going "northwards towards the glaciers" beyond that. "Northwards" cannot in any linguistic or geographical interpretation mean "north-eastwards", but Pakistan and the US unilaterally drew the line several decades ago from NJ9842 north-eastwards to the Karakoram pass controlled by the Chinese.

In reality, because the entire state of J&K acceded to India legally, the areas not in control of Pakistan are rightfully Indian whether we physically occupy every inch of our own territory or not. We were compelled to occupy the Saltoro Ridge to prevent Pakistan (under a certain Brigadier Musharraf) from occupying it and threatening our hold over the Shyok valley and potentially Ladakh itself. Why should Pakistan have wanted to occupy these punishing heights if they have no strategic value?

Saltoro need not have "strategic" value if our borders with both Pakistan and China were demarcated, neither had any claim to our territory and relations with both were normal and friendly. It is because this is not the case that we are being compelled to position ourselves the closest possible to the source of the threats. Why withdraw to positions easier to hold physically and lose available defence depth? Should the army brass take decisions on these questions or the civilian authority?

Siachen is the Pakistan army's agenda. General Musharraf admitted that Kargil was Pakistan's riposte to Siachen. The argument that an Indian concession on Siachen will strengthen the hands of Pakistan's civilian government in its peace efforts is dubious as we are being asked to appease the Pakistan army for failing to dislodge us from Saltoro. How will placating it strengthen the army's disposition towards India and the civilian authority in Pakistan itself?

If prior to Kargil India was disposed to end the Saltoro stand-off by experimenting with Pakistan's trustworthiness, with reducing the human cost of occupying such forbidding heights as additional reason, after Kargil India has strong reason to be deeply distrustful of Pakistani intentions.

Context

What is the guarantee that safeguards built into any agreement will not be violated by Pakistan at an opportune time, as happened at Kargil? Meanwhile, with technical and infrastructural improvements the human cost has come down drastically. What is the compulsion to place faith in an adversary that still fails to address India's key concerns?

The jihadi groups in Pakistan still exist; Hafiz Saeed is not being curbed; those responsible for Mumbai have not been tried even after four years and to Kashmir has now been added the emotive issue of water. Pakistani defiance of the US on the issue of terrorism and truck with Islamic extremists has a lesson for India. Pakistan's Afghan ambitions remain problematic for the region. Any concession on Saltoro has to be assessed in this larger, unsettled context.

Course

Pakistan's movement on the trade issue is to be welcomed. In response, even without receiving MFN status yet, India has already committed itself to MFN plus treatment for Pakistan and permitting Pakistani investment in India without reciprocal action by Pakistan. There is no case for rewarding Pakistan also on military-security issues in addition.

What happens if just before PM's visit to Pakistan to sign the Saltoro agreement there is a major terror attack in India? Will we postpone the visit? If this happens just after the visit and the agreement, will we freeze its implementation? What will that say of our political judgment? Terrorism remains the most critical issue.

Ideally, Saltoro should be part of an overall settlement of the J&K issue. As a first step, before any evenly balanced demilitarisation eventually takes place as a CBM, the LOC should be jointly demarcated beyond NJ9842 along the Actual Ground Position Line, which we now seem to be demanding in what General Kayani sees as a hardening of our posture.

Let us stay this course.

No ground to vacate Siachen : Kanwal Sibal News - India Today
 
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Some ground facts need to be clarified. There is a lot of talk about the "cost of occupation" or physical presence in Siachen. While it is high (higher than any other theater, even Kargil) the human costs have come down majorly. Actually Siachen forced the Indian Army to invest heavily not only in equipment but also in technology to be there. A great deal of that had a side benefit, application in Antarctica!

Structures and equipment designed for Siachen was used in Antarctica and vice-versa. Snow and Avalanche studies became more important since 1984 and has wide-spread application not only in Siachen, but also else-where. One has to remember that Siachen is not the only place that avalanches occur. Now the Indian Army has some methods to manage and mitigate the effects of avalanches, which was non-existent earlier.
Not to forget that helicopters and heli-borne supply operations improved because of the requirements of Siachen. The Dhruv's service ceiling requirements were defined by the needs of Siachen operations. Few Armies, if any are operating in similar conditions.

Even military tactics got refined because of Siachen. Its not for nothing that GoI was able to offer assistance to GoP after the huge tragedy at Giyari. Siachen has helped the learning curve on the Indian side.
 
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during Kargil war Pakistani artillery bombed the Nation Highway 1 which connects Kashmir Valley to Siachen to stop all the logistics to Siachen post and cut off Siachen from kashmir. What was the need to recapture all those peaks if we are giving Siachen back? One important thing is we do not want our soldiers to die out there so please provide them proper sustainable gears. With the help of Meteorological department we can save the environment too.
 
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thats the moronic statement i have ever heared. we can hold our ground but not occupy some one elses just becuase they are out.
this is like i take ownership of your home because you left it

we do claim all of J & K,dont we?

Then why is it someone else's house?
 
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