Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[Great Janjua]

SSB Mr. Ismail Demir told that Pakistan extended the delivery schedule of T-129 Atak helicopters 1 more years in order to get export licence of LHTEC engine from US. Both Pakistani and Turkish officials are making pressure US to get export licence but If US rejects it, Pakistani helicopters will most likely receive domestic TS-1500 turboshaft engines by waiting a little longer.

How long for the indigenous engine

 

[cabatli_53]

How long for the indigenous engine

First full scale prototype -TS-1500- will fly with T-625 Gökbey helicopter in 2020. It takes a few years more to receive green light for serial production.

 

[Mrc]

Although probably best heli to get it was wrong order to place from beginning .


I can say now that even after additional year USA will not allow export of engine

So unnecessary shortage of attack helis has been created artificially by none other than pak general staff by placing order despite clearly foreseeable circumstances and desciplinary action shud ensue... And correct order shud be placed for Chinese helis

No offense to turkish brothers

 

[Great Janjua]

Although probably best heli to get it was wrong order to place from beginning .


I can say now that even after additional year USA will not allow export of engine

So unnecessary shortage of attack helis has been created artificially by none other than pak general staff by placing order despite clearly foreseeable circumstances and desciplinary action shud ensue... And correct order shud be placed for Chinese helis

No offense to turkish brothers

Yes even if the Turkish brothers get their engine completed in time it will need revaluation in Pakistan seems like a lost deal

 

[mingle]

If deal went through is great but if it doesn't Army should make an open bidding as @Quwa wrote in his blog for atleast 100 Helis for local assembly to replace cobras too let's see how it pans out Army's requirements.

 

[Mrc]

It was pretty evident from blocking AH1z delivery that USA will not allow export of 129 t engines . If they would to allow turkish export than why in world they would block their own export???

There seems to be foolish or deliberate oversight from pak military people dealing with the matter

This shud immediately be remedied as we do need these helis 9n western borders urgently . .

And personal involved shud atleast be investigated for gross incompetence

 

[Areesh]

T129 has turned out to be a bad deal for Pakistan

I hope we opt for Chinese choppers and move on

 

[mudas777]

Since we have got ourselves in a bit of muddle but one have to look through the fog and find some solution in the interim. How about if we lease 50 hellos from China in the mean time and renegotiate with our Turkish brothers and up the number of hellos but manufacture it on 50:50 with TOT and some thing good comes out of this saga.
On one hand we will have some gap fillers and on the other hand we can play with the time till Turkish own power plants for the hellos are ready. Win win for both brothers. How long, we will keep on going to the pillar to the post and to other countries for our needs and then we keep on complaining we have got no jobs and we got trade deficit issue.
Point to remember is F16 saga gave us the JF17 and now we don't need any one dictation, same can be said of the similar situation thanks to the US engine issue and on the long term we get a better deal of all this.

 

[nomi007]

Unfortunately Turkish are making us fool.
why they are not offering an alternative western engine for T-129.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

I guess Pakistan has no choice now but to just stick with this deal unless Pakistan can start building their own.

It cost Turkey/Italy just $3.2 billion to design and build the T129 Atak helicopter and Pakistan has spent $1.5 billion just purchasing it (plus $1 billion on the AH-1Zs).

I am sure Pakistan could've easily done a helicopter JV with China with that sort of money to build the machines suited for Pakistan.

I am not sure what the logic was for Pakistani Army going for this sanction-prone deal while PAF successfully managed to free itself from US with the JF-17 Thunder program.

 

[khanasifm]

First full scale prototype -TS-1500- will fly with T-625 Gökbey helicopter in 2020. It takes a few years more to receive green light for serial production.

https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/co...-team-of-experts-for-the-t625-helicopter-3546

625 product target with Ts-1400 is 24/25 so adoption for 129 who knows

 

[khanasifm]

TS 1400 for T129 Mk-I ATAK Helicopters

The TEI TS1400 Turboshaft Engine can also be integrated into T129 Mk-I ATAK Helicopter with some adaptations to replace LHTEC CTS800-4A Engines for which Turkey has been experiencing difficulties for several years in obtaining an export license from the U.S. Government. In 2015 Turkey had finalized negotiations with Turkmenistan for the sale of 2 T129 Mk-I ATAK Helicopters however since the U.S. Government did not provide the export license for the LHTEC CTS800-4A Engines this project was not realized. A similar problem is being experienced for the sale of the T129 Mk-Is to Pakistan. Turkey has been waiting for more than a year for the U.S. export license in order to proceed with the Pakistan T129B Mk-I deal.

The contract for the sale of 30 T129B Mk-I ATAK Light Attack and Tactical Reconnaissance Helicopters to Pakistan Land Forces was signed on 16 May 2018, yet it has not become effective as of June 2019. Official application to the U.S. Government regarding the export license of the LHTEC CTS800-4A Turboshaft Engine utilized on the helicopter was made, the process was completed with the Foreign Affairs Commission and the request was submitted to the U.S. Department of Defence. The approval process was still underway as of May 2019. Turkish Aerospace previously received the Original License Document from the U.S. Government for the sale/export of the T129B to Pakistan.

 

[mingle]

TS 1400 for T129 Mk-I ATAK Helicopters

The TEI TS1400 Turboshaft Engine can also be integrated into T129 Mk-I ATAK Helicopter with some adaptations to replace LHTEC CTS800-4A Engines for which Turkey has been experiencing difficulties for several years in obtaining an export license from the U.S. Government. In 2015 Turkey had finalized negotiations with Turkmenistan for the sale of 2 T129 Mk-I ATAK Helicopters however since the U.S. Government did not provide the export license for the LHTEC CTS800-4A Engines this project was not realized. A similar problem is being experienced for the sale of the T129 Mk-Is to Pakistan. Turkey has been waiting for more than a year for the U.S. export license in order to proceed with the Pakistan T129B Mk-I deal.

The contract for the sale of 30 T129B Mk-I ATAK Light Attack and Tactical Reconnaissance Helicopters to Pakistan Land Forces was signed on 16 May 2018, yet it has not become effective as of June 2019. Official application to the U.S. Government regarding the export license of the LHTEC CTS800-4A Turboshaft Engine utilized on the helicopter was made, the process was completed with the Foreign Affairs Commission and the request was submitted to the U.S. Department of Defence. The approval process was still underway as of May 2019. Turkish Aerospace previously received the Original License Document from the U.S. Government for the sale/export of the T129B to Pakistan.

Alice wells is coming pak for 4day trip I believe this engine issue will go through along our cobras

 

[araz]

Although probably best heli to get it was wrong order to place from beginning .


I can say now that even after additional year USA will not allow export of engine

So unnecessary shortage of attack helis has been created artificially by none other than pak general staff by placing order despite clearly foreseeable circumstances and desciplinary action shud ensue... And correct order shud be placed for Chinese helis

No offense to turkish brothers

The provider takes responsibility for providing all the necessary components and deliver a fully functioning platform. In JFT we have left the Chinese to deal with the Russians on the RD engines. Was that wrong as well? I have been told on this forum by responsible persons that the engines for the said platforms had already been acquired. In this light one wonders what has happened.
I present to you 2 possible scenarios.
A. The Turkish engine is nearing completion and PA has itself agreed with the Turks to wait for it as it provides many advantages on top of the possibility of local manufacturing and overhaul and independednce from sanctions and supply line disruptions.
B.PAA sees more extensive involvement of the Turks with future procurements and wants commonality of platform engines which would be more economical in the long term. I can easily see a need for upto 80 attack platforms of such nature in PAA and if we had a common engine life would be so much more simpler and commonality of engine would ease depot level maintenance plus further acquisitions would be easier and cheaper to procure.
Z10 which people are harping on about needs to evolve further and be tested once again. PAA will surely retest the platform and possibly induct them in the role which it invisioned for the AH1Zs as they do not appear to be coming if open source news is to be believed. If the latter come it will ease the pressures on PAA and allow them to wait for both the other platforms to mature.
This remains my thoughts so let us see what transpires.
A

 

[doorstar]

I have been told on this forum by responsible persons that the engines for the said platforms had already been acquired. In this light one wonders what has happened.

acquired means nothing without an accompanying resale license

reminder:

It remains a fact irrespective of your name calling that the Engines have not been approved for sale to PAA. So currently if the available information is true then the Helos are not approved for sale to us. The Turks were looking for alternate suppliers of Engines but with a changed engine it will require re testing.