Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[Pakistani Fighter]

Bought and delivered pre-CAATSA.

So then would CAATSA be applied on India for its acquisition of S400?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

So then would CAATSA be applied on India for its acquisition of S400?

It should, but India might get away with it.

 

[xbat]

TS-1400 is a project that incorporated many different technical expertise from EU member states

more elaborate please, which EU state(s) are you talking about? TS 1400 is pure domestic.

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

more elaborate please, which EU state(s) are you talking about? TS 1400 is pure domestic.

I wondered where they came from the EU state(s), but the word "pure domestic" is a bit funny. It would have been impossible if we hadn't received technology transfers from GE. Likewise most of the tools used in manufacturing come from there, these are not simple cnc machines, you need an international partner for turbine engines.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Bought and delivered pre-CAATSA.

Also not a major weapon system.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

I wondered where they came from the EU state(s), but the word "pure domestic" is a bit funny. It would have been impossible if we hadn't received technology transfers from GE. Likewise most of the tools used in manufacturing come from there, these are not simple cnc machines, you need an international partner for turbine engines.

Sadly very few on this forum understand this. Turkey with foresight cultivated relationships, over decades, with key Western Governments and suppliers, leveraging its pivotal position in NATO. Now it is bearing fruits of what was started decades ago.

Today, most of what Turkey is producing or developing has Western roots. Whether it, is technology, tooling, production methodology, quality control, integration protocols etc. In near future and even now Turkey is and will be producing pure "Turkish" products based on these exchange of Western technologies and expertise.

We in this country have not been able to crawl out of our Colonial Biases and still think in terms of Zero Sum games. We have yet to learn the art of leveraging our strengths and making the most of it. What we have, done over the years, make a hash of it.

If we talk about China than a lot of stuff they are producing today has its roots in Russia/USSR, France, Germany, & USA. Their Nukes and missile tech is originally Russian based. most of their Radar tech is Russian or French. Their Helos are based upon French Tech and lately, a US clone. Their tanks are basically enhanced Russian designs and some German Tech. Critical engines & components are copies of Russian and German tech. A lot of their planes are outright copies of Russian designs! But that is smart.....why go the difficult route when things can be acquired easily by having commercial or strategic relationships with key entities and countries till it suits you!!!

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

more elaborate please, which EU state(s) are you talking about? TS 1400 is pure domestic.

1) GE UK helped with turbine technology.
2) Germany helped with matelargy.
3) Italy with blades and gearbox.
These are EU member States.

Non EU partners are Ukraine that provides their latest engine technology which was further improved on by the help of the above mentioned countries.

The only thing that makes it indigenous the will of Turkish President to acquire capabilities that are not available at this time.

 

[xbat]

1) GE UK helped with turbine technology.
2) Germany helped with matelargy.
3) Italy with blades and gearbox.
These are EU member States.

Non EU partners are Ukraine that provides their latest engine technology which was further improved on by the help of the above mentioned countries.

The only thing that makes it indigenous the will of Turkish President to acquire capabilities that are not available at this time.

wait.. wait.. wait a second! we are talking about a specific item called "TS-1400" ,not Turkeys technological adventure. we designed ,manufactured, tested it by ourselves. No other country has right to say about it. lets compare it with ALTAY tank, Turkey got technical assistance from S.Korea, Turkey paid money and also S. Korea wanted the tank can not be exports to JAPAN and China. this is what happens when you get tech from other countries.

Turkey requested its engine design parts to be manufactured in abroad no one even responded. Finally TEI achieved to manufacture those critical parts by itself . The materials that can be used inside a turbine engine are under strict control by its producers. You cant produce a turbine engine without permission of supplier of those specific alloys.

Machinery is not our topic here, everyone uses US/JAPAN/EU machines even Russians. TEI is a partner of GE uses US origin machines .
lets talk about your claims
1)When you produce a turbine engine under license that doesnt contribute you too much, you never know how they design it! production is something different
2) Germany provides some metal alloys not metallurgy know how! again they are different things
3) Turkey didnt produce blades (single crystal) before this project, all them came from US. i dont think that italy has single crystal tech by its own. We learned gearbox by ourselves, actually its not too hard when you compare other parts of engine.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Sadly very few on this forum understand this. Turkey with foresight cultivated relationships, over decades, with key Western Governments and suppliers, leveraging its pivotal position in NATO. Now it is bearing fruits of what was started decades ago.

Today, most of what Turkey is producing or developing has Western roots. Whether it, is technology, tooling, production methodology, quality control, integration protocols etc. In near future and even now Turkey is and will be producing pure "Turkish" products based on these exchange of Western technologies and expertise.

We in this country have not been able to crawl out of our Colonial Biases and still think in terms of Zero Sum games. We have yet to learn the art of leveraging our strengths and making the most of it. What we have, done over the years, make a hash of it.

If we talk about China than a lot of stuff they are producing today has its roots in Russia/USSR, France, Germany, & USA. Their Nukes and missile tech is originally Russian based. most of their Radar tech is Russian or French. Their Helos are based upon French Tech and lately, a US clone. Their tanks are basically enhanced Russian designs and some German Tech. Critical engines & components are copies of Russian and German tech. A lot of their planes are outright copies of Russian designs! But that is smart.....why go the difficult route when things can be acquired easily by having commercial or strategic relationships with key entities and countries till it suits you!!!

In some ways, I wonder if seeing what Turkey is doing today is what pushed the PAF to pursue Project Azm as an original fighter instead of going for FC-31. The FGFA under Azm is wildly ambitious, and it's drawing some mockery and skepticism from various quarters.

However, Turkey took what it had, and then made a leap with the TS1400. What is to stop Pakistan from taking what it has and taking a leap of its own?

It won't be as drastic as Turkey, sure, but then again, a jump from relying on others to designing your own plane in-house (albeit drawing on a mix of domestic and overseas development/industrial support) is huge in its own right.

I just hope we start applying that mentality to a 9-10 ton common attack and transport transport helicopter too.

We can use something in the size range of the S-70 or AW149 for transporting troops, naval operations, CSAR, and government/civilian usage. And the same engine, transmissions, rotors, etc can go towards a tandem-seat attack helicopter.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

In some ways, I wonder if seeing what Turkey is doing today is what pushed the PAF to pursue Project Azm as an original fighter instead of going for FC-31. The FGFA under Azm is wildly ambitious, and it's drawing some mockery and skepticism from various quarters.

However, Turkey took what it had, and then made a leap with the TS1400. What is to stop Pakistan from taking what it has and taking a leap of its own?

It won't be as drastic as Turkey, sure, but then again, a jump from relying on others to designing your own plane in-house (albeit drawing on a mix of domestic and overseas development/industrial support) is huge in its own right.

I just hope we start applying that mentality to a 9-10 ton common attack and transport transport helicopter too.

We can use something in the size range of the S-70 or AW149 for transporting troops, naval operations, CSAR, and government/civilian usage. And the same engine, transmissions, rotors, etc can go towards a tandem-seat attack helicopter.

A lot of commonalty can be achieved between Turkey and Pakistan in:

MBT --- Pakistan is searching around for a tank to add to its ageing fleet. Buy into the Altay program and leverage economies of scale and modify the design to suit our conditions.
AFV --- PA still lacks a true AFV. Again leverage the Turk program and build economies of scale and bring down costs.
Milgem & Beyond --- Seems like we are moving in that direction
ATAK & Beyond --- Focus on engine and avionics. Maybe linkup with Safran out of France. But PA has a med. to heavy attack helo need and a med to heavy transport helo requirement for transport in AJK.
SP HOW --- Again the next gen SP beyond the M-109 variants can come from a joint PakTurk initiative.
Light 155mm HOW -- Develop that along with Turkey. They too have mountainous terrain and are fighting an insurgency there. We need light HOW to use in AJK that we lack today.

The above are the cornerstone programs that can benefit Pakistan for circumventing various limitations in acquiring western technologies and at the same time access to Western Standard Equipment without let and hindrance. Turks can cut down their costs by letting Pakistan bear some development expenses and spread the development costs.

It is win-win for both countries as suggested by Bilal Khan (Quwa).

 

[fatman17]

A lot of commonalty can be achieved between Turkey and Pakistan in:

MBT --- Pakistan is searching around for a tank to add to its ageing fleet. Buy into the Altay program and leverage economies of scale and modify the design to suit our conditions.
AFV --- PA still lacks a true AFV. Again leverage the Turk program and build economies of scale and bring down costs.
Milgem & Beyond --- Seems like we are moving in that direction
ATAK & Beyond --- Focus on engine and avionics. Maybe linkup with Safran out of France. But PA has a med. to heavy attack helo need and a med to heavy transport helo requirement for transport in AJK.
SP HOW --- Again the next gen SP beyond the M-109 variants can come from a joint PakTurk initiative.
Light 155mm HOW -- Develop that along with Turkey. They too have mountainous terrain and are fighting an insurgency there. We need light HOW to use in AJK that we lack today.

The above are the cornerstone programs that can benefit Pakistan for circumventing various limitations in acquiring western technologies and at the same time access to Western Standard Equipment without let and hindrance. Turks can cut down their costs by letting Pakistan bear some development expenses and spread the development costs.

It is win-win for both countries as suggested by Bilal Khan (Quwa).

Turkey still depends on western materials / key components for its major weapons programmes. We all know about the T129, the Altay has german technology eg the engine etc so are not 100% sanctions free esp after the row with the US on the S400 purchase resulting in the suspension of the F35 program for the TuAF.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

A lot of commonalty can be achieved between Turkey and Pakistan in:

MBT --- Pakistan is searching around for a tank to add to its ageing fleet. Buy into the Altay program and leverage economies of scale and modify the design to suit our conditions.
AFV --- PA still lacks a true AFV. Again leverage the Turk program and build economies of scale and bring down costs.
Milgem & Beyond --- Seems like we are moving in that direction
ATAK & Beyond --- Focus on engine and avionics. Maybe linkup with Safran out of France. But PA has a med. to heavy attack helo need and a med to heavy transport helo requirement for transport in AJK.
SP HOW --- Again the next gen SP beyond the M-109 variants can come from a joint PakTurk initiative.
Light 155mm HOW -- Develop that along with Turkey. They too have mountainous terrain and are fighting an insurgency there. We need light HOW to use in AJK that we lack today.

The above are the cornerstone programs that can benefit Pakistan for circumventing various limitations in acquiring western technologies and at the same time access to Western Standard Equipment without let and hindrance. Turks can cut down their costs by letting Pakistan bear some development expenses and spread the development costs.

It is win-win for both countries as suggested by Bilal Khan (Quwa).

Why dont we do it with China?

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Why dont we do it with China?

China is already an option and a lot of things are being worked upon with China.

With Turkey the evolution of their product line follows the western genres. While that of Chinese products have mostly Russian genres.

 

[fatman17]

Why dont we do it with China?

We are with China and Ukraine on MBTs

 

[Imran Khan]

I wondered where they came from the EU state(s), but the word "pure domestic" is a bit funny. It would have been impossible if we hadn't received technology transfers from GE. Likewise most of the tools used in manufacturing come from there, these are not simple cnc machines, you need an international partner for turbine engines.

i have stopped believing of this pure domestic scrap when i stand on Chinese frigate and look around made in Italy made in japan made in Korea things