Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[dBSPL]

I'm sorry, but the transfer of technology for the TS1400 requires much more advanced collaboration.

 

[Great Janjua]

I'm sorry, but the transfer of technology for the TS1400 requires much more advanced collaboration.

Your engine is not mature enough we wont be buying it in the first place no need to get all in your feelings mate

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Transfer of technology plus we get information off future updates like T629

There is no such offset ive read so far.

 

[dBSPL]

The TS1400 is the most successful sub-system project of the Turkish defense industry in the last 20 years. Soon I will write a few things about the details in the related topic. In some critical sub-components We have overcame processes in just 3-4 years that some "bigger" countries have not passed in 10-15 years. But what I wrote above is not about this.

Different variants of the TS1400 core and future examples of derivations will be deployed on a wide range of platforms within the Turkish military and critical civilian areas. What you are seeing is not just a 1500 shp turboshaft and gearbox. If Pakistan shows interest in this technology, which will make it necessary to cooperate in a wider area between Pakistan and Turkey.

 

[Great Janjua]

There is no such offset ive read so far.

What..... then 1.5 billion is too much am baffled I thought we had received tot

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

If anti-tank tot is meant, it can be $ 1.5 billion, but it is impossible to give tot with 30 helicopters + spare parts + training, simulator + anti-tank missiles. Even for the Ada / Jinnah class, the reciprocal tot has been taken for missile fuel engines. Nobody's giving anything to anybody.

What..... then 1.5 billion is too much am baffled I thought we had received tot

TAI, despite years of production and tot agreements, Agusta Westland, with its current Leonardo for $ 3.5 billion, has hardly received electronic integration and only customized A129B2 configuration and license rights (hence tot), except for production lines. 1.5 billion dollars to the helicopter and the helicopter tires, as well as the number of technology, even for technology transfer bro sorry. Life is more expensive than you think outside Pakistan.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

The TS1400 is the most successful sub-system project of the Turkish defense industry in the last 20 years. Soon I will write a few things about the details in the related topic. In some critical sub-components We have overcame processes in just 3-4 years that some "bigger" countries have not passed in 10-15 years. But what I wrote above is not about this.

Different variants of the TS1400 core and future examples of derivations will be deployed on a wide range of platforms within the Turkish military and critical civilian areas. What you are seeing is not just a 1500 shp turboshaft and gearbox. If Pakistan shows interest in this technology, which will make it necessary to cooperate in a wider area between Pakistan and Turkey.

It'd be better to collaborate at a higher/abstract level on gas turbine technology, esp. crystal blades, fuel efficiency, etc. Pakistan (and Turkey) can then take those insights to develop their own respective applied solutions, either on their own or collaboratively.

However, it'd be better to start with developing the knowledge pool together, instead of expecting Turkey to give up something via ToT, or vice-versa. We should collaborate on R&D in gas turbines, composites, steel, electronics, semiconductors, etc. The applications will come later.

PS: $1.5 b isn't the upfront cost of the ATAK purchase. A significant portion of it also includes spare parts and support, likely a d-level MRO plant as well. Pakistan probably won't spend $1.5b on the program until 10-15 years into program. @Great Janjua

 

[waz]

The TS1400 is the most successful sub-system project of the Turkish defense industry in the last 20 years. Soon I will write a few things about the details in the related topic. In some critical sub-components We have overcame processes in just 3-4 years that some "bigger" countries have not passed in 10-15 years. But what I wrote above is not about this.

Different variants of the TS1400 core and future examples of derivations will be deployed on a wide range of platforms within the Turkish military and critical civilian areas. What you are seeing is not just a 1500 shp turboshaft and gearbox. If Pakistan shows interest in this technology, which will make it necessary to cooperate in a wider area between Pakistan and Turkey.

 

[HRK]

to start with developing the knowledge pool together

this is more important rather to have collaboration in 1 or 2 specific program ....

 

[Turan09]

The TS1400 is the most successful sub-system project of the Turkish defense industry in the last 20 years. Soon I will write a few things about the details in the related topic. In some critical sub-components We have overcame processes in just 3-4 years that some "bigger" countries have not passed in 10-15 years. But what I wrote above is not about this.

Different variants of the TS1400 core and future examples of derivations will be deployed on a wide range of platforms within the Turkish military and critical civilian areas. What you are seeing is not just a 1500 shp turboshaft and gearbox. If Pakistan shows interest in this technology, which will make it necessary to cooperate in a wider area between Pakistan and Turkey.

Its now, called TS1500. With 1500 HP. (For comparison ATAK's american made engine ''LHTEC T800'' has 1350 HP.)

What..... then 1.5 billion is too much am baffled I thought we had received tot

Bahrain paid 912 million dollars for 12 AH1Z. Of course without any ToT. For comparison, you must pay 2.3 billion dollars for 30 AH1-Z without ToT. Turkish Products are cheaper when you compare American or European but still not that cheap. ATAK will be cheaper with TS1500 but again, it needs time.

If anti-tank tot is meant, it can be $ 1.5 billion, but it is impossible to give tot with 30 helicopters + spare parts + training, simulator + anti-tank missiles. Even for the Ada / Jinnah class, the reciprocal tot has been taken for missile fuel engines. Nobody's giving anything to anybody.





TAI, despite years of production and tot agreements, Agusta Westland, with its current Leonardo for $ 3.5 billion, has hardly received electronic integration and only customized A129B2 configuration and license rights (hence tot), except for production lines. 1.5 billion dollars to the helicopter and the helicopter tires, as well as the number of technology, even for technology transfer bro sorry. Life is more expensive than you think outside Pakistan.

This is the important part. Two states can complete each other with their areas of expertise. But, no one can expect to have full ToT for free. Not Turkey, Not Pakistan. This technologies does not grow on trees. We worked for years. We spent billions. For the continuity of Turkish Defence Industry we need money. Must be quite understandable. When you consider that Turkish Defence Industry benefits you with saction proof NATO standard weapons.
Best way would be technology exchange and joint production. Technology exchange would make stronger both of us, just like MILGEM. You got your national stealth frigates, we got missile fuel engines. And joint production, of course because of R&D spendings, makes you learn about most part of production.
But a note, is Pakistan gonna join future Turkish programs? Until today, Pakistan choose to stay away from it, mostly because of risks and R&D Spendings. It is understandable because until 2000's Turkey had very little experience about weapon production, and nobody would like to risk her money for uncertain success... I think we proved ourself in this last ten years with our products. Now, lets see if Pakistan gonna take the risks and R&D spendings... You know what they say, ''no pain, no gain''

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

The TS1400 is the most successful sub-system project of the Turkish defense industry in the last 20 years. Soon I will write a few things about the details in the related topic. In some critical sub-components We have overcame processes in just 3-4 years that some "bigger" countries have not passed in 10-15 years. But what I wrote above is not about this.

Different variants of the TS1400 core and future examples of derivations will be deployed on a wide range of platforms within the Turkish military and critical civilian areas. What you are seeing is not just a 1500 shp turboshaft and gearbox. If Pakistan shows interest in this technology, which will make it necessary to cooperate in a wider area between Pakistan and Turkey.

TS-1400 is a project that incorporated many different technical expertise from EU member states hence it was bound to be successful. Even European companies required a new type of engine for their next generation attack helicopter hence proceeded in providing advance technologies in respect of cheaper cost of manufacture due to cheap labour in Turkey.

As far as Pakistan is concerned its T129 if powered by this engines would require retesting in Pakistan. Though the power generation is slightly higher than the US made engines that would still not be available for Hot and High environment as this would be going to the new Millimeter Radar that is also under development.

This was one of the reasons Pakistani order did not order the radar for its initial T-129's but wanted a higher performance engine, hence Pakistan is very much involved in the engine manufacturing progress but nothing has been officially stated so far.

If anti-tank tot is meant, it can be $ 1.5 billion, but it is impossible to give tot with 30 helicopters + spare parts + training, simulator + anti-tank missiles. Even for the Ada / Jinnah class, the reciprocal tot has been taken for missile fuel engines. Nobody's giving anything to anybody.

TAI, despite years of production and tot agreements, Agusta Westland, with its current Leonardo for $ 3.5 billion, has hardly received electronic integration and only customized A129B2 configuration and license rights (hence tot), except for production lines. 1.5 billion dollars to the helicopter and the helicopter tires, as well as the number of technology, even for technology transfer bro sorry. Life is more expensive than you think outside Pakistan.

It is possible to have TOT with 30 examples as the order would increase by another 20-30.
If you compare that Turkey payed $3.5 billion for 80 than 50 to 60 would cost around 2-2.2 billion which is not bad as it would allow not just further sales through other company but also save man hours and increased production rate in case of sales to third country.

It'd be better to collaborate at a higher/abstract level on gas turbine technology, esp. crystal blades, fuel efficiency, etc. Pakistan (and Turkey) can then take those insights to develop their own respective applied solutions, either on their own or collaboratively.

However, it'd be better to start with developing the knowledge pool together, instead of expecting Turkey to give up something via ToT, or vice-versa. We should collaborate on R&D in gas turbines, composites, steel, electronics, semiconductors, etc. The applications will come later.

PS: $1.5 b isn't the upfront cost of the ATAK purchase. A significant portion of it also includes spare parts and support, likely a d-level MRO plant as well. Pakistan probably won't spend $1.5b on the program until 10-15 years into program. @Great Janjua

Sir what you are saying is only possible in ideal situation as this would require many industries to be set which are under embargo for Pakistan, not to mention the tools would also be bared, countries that might provide these would also be on sanctions once they provide. Hence it is only possible if Pakistan invests in a mature product and then through local universities develop something in the long term.

 

[cabatli_53]

TEI has reached technological maturity to manufacture all sections of turbine engines. Nickel, Aluminium, Titanium alloys and stainless steel with different manufacturing technics...

01/2014, Red dots were the sections that TEI didn’t have capability to produce in 2014. Within 3 years, All defficiencies have been filled with new manufacturing technics...

Dinç Project: 240t melting capacity aviation quality stainless steel and nickel-based alloys required to be used in aerospace platforms for the defense industry and civil purposes.

The Atom project: This program aims to develop nickel metal powder suitable for layered manufacturing for aerospace applications

The Elektron Project: Development of a titanium layer process using the Electron Beam Melting (EBM) method.

The Ayna Project: Development of new generation Aluminum alloydevelopment

İnci Project: Manufacturing capability domestically for the titanium alloy parts needed in air platforms through precision casting method.

Yakut Project: Project aims at acquisition of the Metal Powder Laser Melting (LAM) process as well as the process modeling capability for manufacturing of functional parts that have advanced mechanical features and can operate under challenging conditions such as high pressure and temperature differences in aircraft engines.

The Dilek Project: backed up by the Undersecretariat for Defense Industries, is carried out by TAI and TEI in collaboration with the aim of developing superplastic forming process for titanium alloyswhich are used in both platform and engine applications in aviation industry, and as a result reducing dependence on foreign sources.

Müge Project: The purpose of program is to develop Magnesium Alloy Casting technology.



TEI designed 9 stage compressor providing same press/airflow ratio with original HP compressor with 10 stage designed by GE.

TEI designed combustion chamber reached %98+ Combustion efficiency in trials. That is a good indication for compressors and fuel injection working efficienctly to mix optimum amount of air/fuel particulars (1/14) in chamber.

TEI is working on advanced blades cooling technology to minimize the maintenance costs, while improving the efficiency and reliability of national gas turbine engines.

You can see the single crystal blade produced by TEI and domestic partners. Single crystal blades are used on turbines.

This magical alloy for turbine blades have been manufactured with additive manufacturing method by
TEI.

The first FBS module manufactured with titanium moulding process has been seen on image.

Blade Repairing with laser cladding technology is being developed for gas turbine engines.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

Russia = CAATSA. Mi-28NE = Sanctions.

Then how we got Mi 35Ms?

 

[dBSPL]

TEI has reached technological maturity to manufacture all sections of turbine engines. Nickel, Aluminium, Titanium alloys and stainless steel with different manufacturing technics...

01/2014, Red dots were the sections that TEI didn’t have capability to produce in 2014. Within 3 years, All defficiencies have been filled with new manufacturing technics...

Dinç Project: 240t melting capacity aviation quality stainless steel and nickel-based alloys required to be used in aerospace platforms for the defense industry and civil purposes.

The Atom project: This program aims to develop nickel metal powder suitable for layered manufacturing for aerospace applications

The Elektron Project: Development of a titanium layer process using the Electron Beam Melting (EBM) method.

The Ayna Project: Development of new generation Aluminum alloydevelopment

İnci Project: Manufacturing capability domestically for the titanium alloy parts needed in air platforms through precision casting method.

Yakut Project: Project aims at acquisition of the Metal Powder Laser Melting (LAM) process as well as the process modeling capability for manufacturing of functional parts that have advanced mechanical features and can operate under challenging conditions such as high pressure and temperature differences in aircraft engines.

The Dilek Project: backed up by the Undersecretariat for Defense Industries, is carried out by TAI and TEI in collaboration with the aim of developing superplastic forming process for titanium alloyswhich are used in both platform and engine applications in aviation industry, and as a result reducing dependence on foreign sources.

Müge Project: The purpose of program is to develop Magnesium Alloy Casting technology.



TEI designed 9 stage compressor providing same press/airflow ratio with original HP compressor with 10 stage designed by GE.

TEI designed combustion chamber reached %98+ Combustion efficiency in trials. That is a good indication for compressors and fuel injection working efficienctly to mix optimum amount of air/fuel particulars (1/14) in chamber.

TEI is working on advanced blades cooling technology to minimize the maintenance costs, while improving the efficiency and reliability of national gas turbine engines.

View attachment 592645

You can see the single crystal blade produced by TEI and domestic partners. Single crystal blades are used on turbines.

This magical alloy for turbine blades have been manufactured with additive manufacturing method by
TEI.

The first FBS module manufactured with titanium moulding process has been seen on image.

Blade Repairing with laser cladding technology is being developed for gas turbine engines.

Unfortunately, it is not possible to prevent perceptual blindness. There are people who believe in what he wants to believe with a few memorized molds about Turkish defense industry. It is quite frustrating to see people still recitation somethings about Turkish defense&aerospace who have no up-to-date knowledge. Existing main platform projects are the visible part of the iceberg, the main paradigm shift is vertical specialization, acquisition of design capability and matalurgy&meterial science and ofc electronics&micro components area.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Then how we got Mi 35Ms?

Bought and delivered pre-CAATSA.