Pakistan Army received it's first Agusta Westland 139 Helicopter.

[fitpOsitive]

10 Million USD man that's a bit expensive for us imo

Paisa boht ....dua chahiay bhai ki....

 

[Syed Asif Bukhari]

How many will you exactly call "large numbers"


What rummer/Rumor? where you heard that? Is it just you who is trying to spread this rumor or you heard it from someone else?
It will be great if we can keep calm and do not indulge ourselves into speculating,, FOR ONCE!! PLEASE?



Those were Mig21
Everything thing that Russians make are not flying coffins, educate yourself.

Mi17 is among the worlds most trusted and common transport chopper. PA MUST have invested in those, specially with the new Chinese line in operation. However, i do not think that these AW139 are meant for military transport to begin with so Mi17s and there value to PAA is a non-issue here.

These AW139 are most likely for SAR and VIP transport. I hope we can give a couple of these to NDMA so they stop looking toward army for every other land slide. Some may even go to CPEC project and for Gwadar security patrol. These are all speculation for now but one thing i am confident about is that these wont end us as a transport helicopter with Pakistan army aviation for assault troops.

AND

all said, i do feel that there were many other better options available compared to this quite expensive one. I hope Panama is not getting richer because of this deal. Not that i have got anything against the people of Panama.

@HRK @Slav Defence @Irfan Baloch @Oscar @Icarus @Horus @TaimiKhan
You people may want to put end to a few speculations here.

I used the term ''flying coffin '' intentionally for MI 17. any machine having poor safety record can be called ''flying coffin". this term is not specific to mig 21.i cant expect such kind of behavior from a think tank consultant can say

How many will you exactly call "large numbers"


What rummer/Rumor? where you heard that? Is it just you who is trying to spread this rumor or you heard it from someone else?
It will be great if we can keep calm and do not indulge ourselves into speculating,, FOR ONCE!! PLEASE?



Those were Mig21
Everything thing that Russians make are not flying coffins, educate yourself.

Mi17 is among the worlds most trusted and common transport chopper. PA MUST have invested in those, specially with the new Chinese line in operation. However, i do not think that these AW139 are meant for military transport to begin with so Mi17s and there value to PAA is a non-issue here.

These AW139 are most likely for SAR and VIP transport. I hope we can give a couple of these to NDMA so they stop looking toward army for every other land slide. Some may even go to CPEC project and for Gwadar security patrol. These are all speculation for now but one thing i am confident about is that these wont end us as a transport helicopter with Pakistan army aviation for assault troops.

AND

all said, i do feel that there were many other better options available compared to this quite expensive one. I hope Panama is not getting richer because of this deal. Not that i have got anything against the people of Panama.

@HRK @Slav Defence @Irfan Baloch @Oscar @Icarus @Horus @TaimiKhan
You people may want to put end to a few speculations here.

I used term ''flying coffin '' intentionally for MI 17 . any machine having poor safety record can be called ''flying coffin''. this term is not specific to mig 21 .I cant expect such kind of behavior from think tank consultant.

 

[war&peace]

How many will you exactly call "large numbers"

At least 1-3 squadrons....roughly 24-70 airplanes. But if you are referring to ToT, only 3 Agosta-90 Bs were purchased on ToT basis. So even for a single squadron, we should purchase items on ToT basis wherever possible. As opposed to subs, helis are multipurpose machines and useable for both military and civilian purposes and we have a history of natural calamities....floods, Earth quakes, forest fires etc ....Ideally each city should have 1-2 helis at its disposal to provide immediate relief.....then border security....Helis are pretty useful machines.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

What rummer/Rumor? where you heard that? Is it just you who is trying to spread this rumor or you heard it from someone else?
It will be great if we can keep calm and do not indulge ourselves into speculating,, FOR ONCE!! PLEASE?

The requirement is based on CPEC and EEZ development. In a few days we would get the official conformation.

 

[Arsalan]

I used the term ''flying coffin '' intentionally for MI 17. any machine having poor safety record can be called ''flying coffin". this term is not specific to mig 21.i cant expect such kind of behavior from a think tank consultant can say

I used term ''flying coffin '' intentionally for MI 17 . any machine having poor safety record can be called ''flying coffin''. this term is not specific to mig 21 .I cant expect such kind of behavior from think tank consultant.

So what kind of behavior will you expect from a TT Consultant dear? OR from anyone for that matter when you go labeling war machines just based on personal liking or disliking? It was nothing personal, sorry if you felt that way and neither it was offensive. I just corrected you that the Mig21 were called flying coffins and NOT Mi17 and neither are there any FACT and Numbers that would support that label

As i mentioned in the original post;

Mi17 is among the worlds most trusted and common transport chopper.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan...nd-aw139-choppers.432061/page-3#ixzz49fiYf8x2

Sir there are OVER 12000 Mi17 built to date. If it was a helicopter with what you can term as "poor flight safety record" there wont be so many of them flying around. Now if you have any figures comparing Mi17 flight safety record against some other helicopter in same class, i myself and hopefully most of our fellow members here will be happy to learn from that.

I hope you understand!

The requirement is based on CPEC and EEZ development. In a few days we would get the official conformation.

Well i just asked about the rumor mill, is it you or are there any other statements floating around about this number of helicopters?

 

[Muhammad Omar]

Beauty... any guess on the Numbers? 10 15?

 

[Bugsy Boy]

Great news

 

[Syed Asif Bukhari]

So what kind of behavior will you expect from a TT Consultant dear? OR from anyone for that matter when you go labeling war machines just based on personal liking or disliking? It was nothing personal, sorry if you felt that way and neither it was offensive. I just corrected you that the Mig21 were called flying coffins and NOT Mi17 and neither are there any FACT and Numbers that would support that label

As i mentioned in the original post;

Sir there are OVER 12000 Mi17 built to date. If it was a helicopter with what you can term as "poor flight safety record" there wont be so many of them flying around. Now if you have any figures comparing Mi17 flight safety record against some other helicopter in same class, i myself and hopefully most of our fellow members here will be happy to learn from that.

I hope you understand!


Well i just asked about the rumor mill, is it you or are there any other statements floating around about this number of helicopters?

mig 21 is called ''flying coffin '' only in India due to its poor safety record . PAF and PLAAF also uses F 7 ( Chinese version of mig 21 ) without any such problem .bcoz spares and parts of F7 are available . MI 17 is a flying coffin ( in case of PAA ) due to lack of spares .

 

[Indos]

Indonesian government rejected that Augusta helicopter (different type) and prefer EC 725 Cougar (made by PT Dirgantara Indonesia under license) after our people rejects that idea.

If you buy EC 725 from Indonesia, there will be a low interest credit given by IDB (Islamic Development Bank) as we have a cooperation with IDB since several years ago. IDB will give financing scheme to PT Dirgantara if the customers are Muslim countries.

This helicopter is actually in higher spec than the type of Augusta you bough.

Just for consideration:

EC 725 Cougar

http://www.indonesian-aerospace.com/view.php?m=product&t=aircraft-detil&id=12

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Well i just asked about the rumor mill, is it you or are there any other statements floating around about this number of helicopters?

LEONARDO-FINMECCANICA: PAKISTAN SELECTS THE AW139 FOR SAR ROLE

• AgustaWestland AW139 intermediate twin engine helicopters. The signing was held in Islamabad in presence of the H.E. Italian Ambassador Stefano Pontecorvo. The contract is part of a fleet renewal programme spread over several batches including a logistic support and training package. The AW139s, deliveries of which are expected in 2017, will be used to perform search and rescue across the nation.
  
  
  
  This contract marks a significant achievement for Leonardo-Finmeccanica in Pakistan, further expanding the already successful presence of the AW139 helicopter in-country. A total of 11 AW139s are already in service in Pakistan, with 5 aircraft operated for Government relief and transportation duties.
  
  
  Rome 24/05/2016 16:49
  
  
  http://www.leonardocompany.com/-/aw139-pakistan

 

[Arsalan]

At least 1-3 squadrons....roughly 24-70 airplanes. But if you are referring to ToT, only 3 Agosta-90 Bs were purchased on ToT basis. So even for a single squadron, we should purchase items on ToT basis wherever possible. As opposed to subs, helis are multipurpose machines and useable for both military and civilian purposes and we have a history of natural calamities....floods, Earth quakes, forest fires etc ....Ideally each city should have 1-2 helis at its disposal to provide immediate relief.....then border security....Helis are pretty useful machines.

Well that was wayyyyy too rough don't you think,, number estimates from 24 to three times more 70? This is a HUGE range sir. Either 24 or THREE time that number

As for the submarines comparison, any idea what that ONE sub cost in comparison to one helicopter? Any comparison of how HUGE that project was compared to this one? Isn't it like saying that we will get ToT for 50 assault rifles that we are going to buy because we got ToT for the submarines too and they were ONLY 3!
I am sorry sir but you are absolutely wrong here.

Firstly, It wont EVER be like 70 helicopters. NEVER
AND
If by some strange twist of fate they were 70 (and i feel sorry for myself writing this number) there still wont be any ToT involved. It doesn't makes any sense.THIS I CAN SAY WITH SURETY
As for number, i do not think they will be more then a dozen, MAXIMUM!!

@Oscar @Horus do you people have any estimates?

LEONARDO-FINMECCANICA: PAKISTAN SELECTS THE AW139 FOR SAR ROLE

• AgustaWestland AW139 intermediate twin engine helicopters. The signing was held in Islamabad in presence of the H.E. Italian Ambassador Stefano Pontecorvo. The contract is part of a fleet renewal programme spread over several batches including a logistic support and training package. The AW139s, deliveries of which are expected in 2017, will be used to perform search and rescue across the nation.
  
  
  
  This contract marks a significant achievement for Leonardo-Finmeccanica in Pakistan, further expanding the already successful presence of the AW139 helicopter in-country. A total of 11 AW139s are already in service in Pakistan, with 5 aircraft operated for Government relief and transportation duties.
  
  
  Rome 24/05/2016 16:49
  
  
  http://www.leonardocompany.com/-/aw139-pakistan

Still there is NOTHING about the number being 40!! Not even an indication that it can be as high as that.

I think you were confused by "spread over several batches" part. It do not means that there will be several batches of helicopters coming but merely that the "program" is spread over several batches/parts. This most likely includes up gradations of the existing fleet, parts or maintenance. Training perhaps. New choppers and there support facility etc.

Just looking at the price and then check what these choppers will actually OFFER us, i hope the number is low and only for SAR and routine security and patrol etc.

 

[RoadRunner401]

Aren't these choppers costly ?

executive/private and government

When it comes to comfort and security of our corrupt elite, no price is too high!!!!!!

 

[Arsalan]

mig 21 is called ''flying coffin '' only in India due to its poor safety record . PAF and PLAAF also uses F 7 ( Chinese version of mig 21 ) without any such problem .bcoz spares and parts of F7 are available . MI 17 is a flying coffin ( in case of PAA ) due to lack of spares .

Yeah that is why i mentioned Mig21 and not F7.
Also what makes you say that there is any problem related to spares for Mi17 with PAA? Ours were even upgraded a few years back. Also it is not like we are not able to get parts from Russia. We are getting JF17 engines and other things as well so parts wont be an issue either. ALSO the Chinese are running there own manufacturing line for the Mi17 so that pretty much address any part problem.

 

[Indos]

In case you want to buy Augusta AW 101

Augusta AW 101

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EC 725 Cougar ( 20 Million USD) vs Augusta AW 101 (21 Million USD)

EC 725 Cougar can be a bit cheaper because of several production policy. The fuselage production is not only in France, Europe (high cost labor). For instant, Indonesia has contract with Airbus to make around 100 fuselage of EC 725 Cougar. The contract is a new one though. Brazil is also part of the production base. So less expensive is not necessarily less in quality.

 

[Syed Asif Bukhari]

Yeah that is why i mentioned Mig21 and not F7.
Also what makes you say that there is any problem related to spares for Mi17 with PAA? Ours were even upgraded a few years back. Also it is not like we are not able to get parts from Russia. We are getting JF17 engines and other things as well so parts wont be an issue either. ALSO the Chinese are running there own manufacturing line for the Mi17 so that pretty much address any part problem.

PAA is facing problems in engines and spare . I think 5 or 6 months ago , PAK and Russia had signed a contract for MI 17 overhaul and engine spares facility . I don't know whether it is operational or not.