Pakistan-A real market for the Mirage 2000-9 ?

[SQ8]

how? Mirage 3 and mirage 2K share nothing in common. M2K is FBW unstable delta and Mirage 3 is a stable conventional delta, flight envelope is completely different, stick response is different, aircraft performance is completely different. Mirage Rose crews will have similar transitional learning curve if you replace the Mirage 3's with a Jf17 or J10, or f16 or mirage 2K. The difference is as stark as getting a completely different aircraft despite the commonality in 6 alphabets

Not just flight crews, maintenance crews, logistic planning.. etc etc.
The only people who will NOT have a problem are pilots on deputation to the UAEAF.. and there may be what? 10..15 of them over a 5 year period. Not enough to form a squadron. Then who is to maintain the mirages?

 

[araz]

Not just flight crews, maintenance crews, logistic planning.. etc etc.
The only people who will NOT have a problem are pilots on deputation to the UAEAF.. and there may be what? 10..15 of them over a 5 year period. Not enough to form a squadron. Then who is to maintain the mirages?

Na Bhai.
No one here wants to listen to reason. You say the same thing agaiñ and a few moments later someone will pitch up witb another bongey. I have given up trying.
Araz

 

[Luftwaffe]

Na Bhai.
No one here wants to listen to reason. You say the same thing agaiñ and a few moments later someone will pitch up witb another bongey. I have given up trying.
Araz

We have listened reason now that is unfair to say non listened, remember people are advocating J-10 and been told in official interview J-10 is not coming JF-17 is going to be worked upon for years to come.

Sames goes for J-10, will people stop bongiyan that J-10 perform miracles against as soon as it lands at baba multani air base. So maybe people should also look at what they have been suggesting instead of persecuting some, Thankyou.

Last what I or some other maybe saying is opinion not that we have leverage or power to change PAF's mind it is a discussing a logical one the time it would take for J-10 to be deployed doctrine and tactics created employed crew trained would take 2twice more time than Mirage 2000/-9, now no where did some one said 2-3 months did anyone it is said relatively quick it could be a couple of years compare to J-10s not less than 8-10 Years you have JF-17 infront of you where does it stand we know it [now don't accuse me of being blasphemous against it I like the aircraft and its importance]. Hence proven you people want to force your flawed logic upon some and segregate others and try to make them bow to you..not going to happen.

 

[MilSpec]

Last my what i or some other maybe saying is opinion not that we have leverage or power to change PAF's mind it is a discussing a logical one the time it would take for J-10 to be deployed doctrine and tactics created employed crew trained would take 2twice more time than Mirage 2000/-9,

just wondering how did you determine that doctrine, tactics and operational deployment would take twice as M2k, if you don't mind me asking?

 

[Luftwaffe]

just wondering how did you determine that doctrine, tactics and operational deployment would take twice as M2k, if you don't mind me asking?

Hi, since people separate me/few here why not ask holier men those who advocate J-10. Men here are saying Mirage 2000/-9 is pointless and the same men fear indian Mirage 2000/-5 upgrades and consider it relevant upgrade for the next 20 years, may I ask/enquire why upgrade it why not just jump to another new platform like more su-30 or LCA-MKII. I leave it to those confused men. Remember Jordanian F-16 came as a surprise their conditions are not as good as U.A.E Mirages yet PAF procured it for a reason...why buy 13 F-16s why not 4 Block 52 brand new nobody has refused more sales you know? so what was the idea for getting older worn out F-16s..these men would say waziristan ops..please!.

 

[MilSpec]

Hi, since people separate me/few here why not ask holier men those who advocate J-10. Men here are saying Mirage 2000/-9 is pointless and the same men fear indian Mirage 2000/-5 upgrades and consider it relevant upgrade for the next 20 years, may I ask/enquire why upgrade it why not just jump to another new platform like more su-30 or LCA-MKII. I leave it to those confused men. Remember Jordanian F-16 came as a surprise their conditions are not as good as U.A.E Mirages yet PAF procured it for a reason...why buy 13 F-16s why not 4 Block 52 brand new nobody has refused more sales you know? so what was the idea for getting older worn out F-16s..these men would say waziristan ops..please!.

Hi,

I am not aware of the background of the aircrafts in contention. What i have said a few times on these M2K threads, is that getting a small umber of M2K's will not bring a y substantial advantage to PAF but be a heavy drain o PAF's limited resources, unless UAE decides to do a la'German- Mig29 trasfer at 1 euro each.

The reason is M2K will need a completely new set of maintenance, spares, ground support crew, the pilot training and tactics will be completely new, additionally fire control modes are not common between Mirage 3 and M2k so you will not be able to leverage Mirage 3 ordinance to a very high degree.

Thus for capacity increment, F16's or Jf17 shines, as it leverages commonality among your platform, shares the same support infrastructure and already has training and tactics fine tuned. The turn around time will be incredibly low.

For the same reason Mirage 2000 would fit right into IAF, and it would be ridiculous for IAF to contemplate acquiring some surplus f16 as capacity increment.


Now If you treat the mirage 2K induction as a new platform, then J10 makes more sense as it would make sense i investing in new support system as it brings a new platform unknown to the enemy, new avionics, new threat scenarios, new weapons and radars, larger degree of customization, and iron clad sanction free OEM support.

 

[MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n]

Hi,

I very much doubt the capabilities of the Chinese airforce pilots as compared to PAF. The J10B does not have the weaponery and electronics behind it to make the difference.

Our Blk52' and Mlu's aircraft are far head of the J10----. The m2k9 is at par and its capabilities superior in certain arena to those of the F16's and others similar.

But then it is all about the timing----. Any future new aircraft in paf's arsenal must have aesa----.

Dr Muzzamil----money aside---the French will sell us the rafale or whatever if their deal falls thru----.

The m2k9 rumor is a good diversion for Pakistan---strategically---it may happen or it may not happen----.

i'm not a dr.
anyway ; so nice of u 4 ur useful info on da matter ...
unlike others here , u talk sense & mostly logical in analysis ...

 

[Luftwaffe]

Hi,

I am not aware of the background of the aircrafts in contention. What i have said a few times on these M2K threads, is that getting a small umber of M2K's will not bring a y substantial advantage to PAF but be a heavy drain o PAF's limited resources, unless UAE decides to do a la'German- Mig29 trasfer at 1 euro each.

The reason is M2K will need a completely new set of maintenance, spares, ground support crew, the pilot training and tactics will be completely new, additionally fire control modes are not common between Mirage 3 and M2k so you will not be able to leverage Mirage 3 ordinance to a very high degree.

Thus for capacity increment, F16's or Jf17 shines, as it leverages commonality among your platform, shares the same support infrastructure and already has training and tactics fine tuned. The turn around time will be incredibly low.

For the same reason Mirage 2000 would fit right into IAF, and it would be ridiculous for IAF to contemplate acquiring some surplus f16 as capacity increment.

Now If you treat the mirage 2K induction as a new platform, then J10 makes more sense as it would make sense i investing in new support system as it brings a new platform unknown to the enemy, new avionics, new threat scenarios, new weapons and radars, larger degree of customization, and iron clad sanction free OEM support.

Than than question is when you [PAF] is already engaged with a brand new Platform why would an air force put itself in hassle to acquire another new platform and start from the scratch when surplus F-16s can do the Job 100% better. This is for those who advocate J-10, JF-17 is new unknown to enemy would it not be better to work upon it, JF-17 is an evolution tactics as you call it fine tuned can't be said it's a long way down for this platform. Agree to disagree regarding regarding M2K it would still take lesser time than J-10 from scratch. PAF may someday get it may not that is not in ForumErs hand.

If we remember PAF went all across the globe to acquire an older platform Mirage III/V when it was time to say good bye to them and M-2000 was the new kid on the block, for 13 years from 91-2004 PAF modernized with help of Dassault those Mirage that's a long way it was almost Generation updates....or was it the platform had importance from point of view of sets of capabilities. One of the reputable member on this very forum said Mirage ROSE I/II/III would remain in service post 2020 the naval PA2,3s might go first according to him. I can see importance of M2K in PAF now whether PAF decides to skip it or not is their plan.

 

[MastanKhan]

Luftwaffe,

Truthfully---it will easily take around 10 years to fully integrate the J10B---which must come equipped with an aesa

just wondering how did you determine that doctrine, tactics and operational deployment would take twice as M2k, if you don't mind me asking?

Hi,

You may direct that question at me---I am the original instigator of that term on this board. Before that Pakistani superstars assumed that their pilots would jump into the seat and make the aircraft sing.

Thre was really a MAFIA on this board who could not bear to hear this 10 years integration term----including some senior super mods and senior TT members---& all they could bring out their argument was based on either what they Dad had told them---or their Uncles or some air vice marshall---.

These IDIOTS do not and did not know that even a NEW MODEL of a car goes thru 3 to 5 years of integration time period. And here we have a front line fighter aircraft with different operational capabilities---being built for the very first time.

Same thing with the J10B----with a new engine---new frame----new electronics and weapons system---it is a taking of monstrous proportions---.

The only time this would be worth an option----if the J10B comes with an AESA----.

For Pakistan J20 is not the answer---but rather long range surface to air missiles and aesa radar for the JF17 or the J10B---.

 

[MilSpec]

Luftwaffe,

Truthfully---it will easily take around 10 years to fully integrate the J10B---which must come equipped with an aesa


Hi,

You may direct that question at me---I am the original instigator of that term on this board. Before that Pakistani superstars assumed that their pilots would jump into the seat and make the aircraft sing.

hello MK Saab,

Can you answer the query. How did you arrive at 10 years for J10B and the timeframe for M2K if procured.

 

[MastanKhan]

hello MK Saab,

Can you answer the query. How did you arrive at 10 years for J10B and the timeframe for M2K if procured.

Hi,

For J10B---you have to start from scratch---everything is new and you have to test and integrate and train your pilots---which is a massive undertaking---new engine---new electronics--new weapons---.

OTOH---M2K9 is a proven and tested system----. It's play book / operational manual has already been written down----all its known and " unknown " quirks are already know----. The " wheel " for the M2K9 has already been invented---the J10B needs its wheel to be " invented " & made operational.

 

[SQ8]

Luftwaffe,

Truthfully---it will easily take around 10 years to fully integrate the J10B---which must come equipped with an aesa


Hi,

You may direct that question at me---I am the original instigator of that term on this board. Before that Pakistani superstars assumed that their pilots would jump into the seat and make the aircraft sing.

Thre was really a MAFIA on this board who could not bear to hear this 10 years integration term----including some senior super mods and senior TT members---& all they could bring out their argument was based on either what they Dad had told them---or their Uncles or some air vice marshall---.

These IDIOTS do not and did not know that even a NEW MODEL of a car goes thru 3 to 5 years of integration time period. And here we have a front line fighter aircraft with different operational capabilities---being built for the very first time.

Same thing with the J10B----with a new engine---new frame----new electronics and weapons system---it is a taking of monstrous proportions---.

The only time this would be worth an option----if the J10B comes with an AESA----.

For Pakistan J20 is not the answer---but rather long range surface to air missiles and aesa radar for the JF17 or the J10B---.

And these idiots were still mostly right. Your contention that the issue with the delay was only training was completely off the mark then, and is still today. Moreover, the argument was for the JF-17 and not the J-10B.. perhaps you forget your own gloating
The program suffered delays due to finances much more than training hurdles, there was a massive dearth of finances that at one point nearly scuttled the program. The training and integration was an ongoing process and regardless of what you said, happened pretty much on the time frame.. rather much like it did with the F-16.

So while hearsay doesn't always ring true, certain horse's mouths are MUCH more trustworthy than your weekend "analysis". I realise that you know a lot about the automotive industry and its processes. And while there are a lot of parallels with the industrial processes and ideas, there are enough differences between the end users and product that show themselves in the examples of the Honda Jet. Even SAAB was smart enough to know the difference. When it did not , it ended up with cars that did not work well in the market.

In addition, the timeframe for the M2K-9 being integrated into the PAF will be the SAME as for any new platform. Sure the idea of knowing how a delta handles will help, but there is a world of difference in what the aircraft is and what the PAF operates.
There is no Turn-key solution with the M2k-9.

 

[Donatello]

And these idiots were still mostly right. Your contention that the issue with the delay was only training was completely off the mark then, and is still today. Moreover, the argument was for the JF-17 and not the J-10B.. perhaps you forget your own gloating
The program suffered delays due to finances much more than training hurdles, there was a massive dearth of finances that at one point nearly scuttled the program. The training and integration was an ongoing process and regardless of what you said, happened pretty much on the time frame.. rather much like it did with the F-16.

So while hearsay doesn't always ring true, certain horse's mouths are MUCH more trustworthy than your weekend "analysis". I realise that you know a lot about the automotive industry and its processes. And while there are a lot of parallels with the industrial processes and ideas, there are enough differences between the end users and product that show themselves in the examples of the Honda Jet. Even SAAB was smart enough to know the difference. When it did not , it ended up with cars that did not work well in the market.

In addition, the timeframe for the M2K-9 being integrated into the PAF will be the SAME as for any new platform. Sure the idea of knowing how a delta handles will help, but there is a world of difference in what the aircraft is and what the PAF operates.
There is no Turn-key solution with the M2k-9.

I think what he means with the time frame is two things:
1-There is the learning curve that each new plane comes with. Let's assume that PAF pilots learn their new plane and can fly it to a certain proficient level in 3 years. Now this 3 years figure is the same, whether it's the M2K or JF-17 or F-16 (because it's dependent on the pilot and not the plane, and since F-16/JF-17/M2K are all FBW, we can assume under ideal conditions that we can take that as as standard). Those pilots who transition from JF-17 to F-16 will need the same time. It's innate human capability, and as such the learning curve for a specific human will be same for all new aircraft he straps himself into.
It would naturally be less, if they are transitioning from F-16 BLK15 to BLK52, but it would still be there.

2-The second time frame is the fact if the plane itself is ready to be learned. You can learn to fly JF-17 in no time, we know that since pilots go from simulator to actual flying, then you can learn to fly with drop tanks and bombs, and then you can take it a step further to fly it with BVR weapons or say anti-ship missiles. The problem with JF-17 is that, this time frame is moving, because JF-17 still needs to test and integrate new weapons. Simply mounting an SD-10 doesn't make you BVR capable. You need to fly and refly to make sure you know the limitations, for example, at what range does the SD-10 offer the best kill ratio? At what altitude and range does the JDAM provide maximum effectiveness. At what range does the KLJ7 pick up, say, a destroyer sized target which is at sea? What happens if you are flying in bad weather and under night? Since JF-17 is a new plane, we have to learn how to fly it along with all the systems that are there and not there. In case of the M2K, you don't have to worry about the weapons tests and integration, because Dassault did that long time ago. They already know how the Matra 530/550 or MICA behave, so that part of the job is cut out for you. So from day one, the pilots can strap their Matras and Pods and learn to fly with them. You don't have that luxury with Jf-17 because it's a continuous process.
So that overall time frame, is at best not known yet. I am not sure if it's 10 years, but it will be certainly more than a tested weapons system. Think about it, SD-10 itself is a new weapon, so is JF-17. So you have to learn both. CM400AKG is a new weapon, you have no experience on it before. How does the JF-17 perform with or without it?

 

[Basel]

If Pakistan have HQ-9s deployed then can PAF have luxury of getting a multirole fighter which they can use for strike for primary role and air defense, anti ship etc secondary role??

If proper ground based SAM coverage is available and PAF can get upgrade / spare from OEM easily and UAE is ready to sell all M2k9s on affordable price than they can be real force multipliers.

I asked as I just found out a pic of HQ-9 deployed near Sargodha on another thread.

Pic is posted on post No.4:

Pakistan's awareness of enemy missile launches or strikes

 

[MilSpec]

Hi,

For J10B---you have to start from scratch---everything is new and you have to test and integrate and train your pilots---which is a massive undertaking---new engine---new electronics--new weapons---.

OTOH---M2K9 is a proven and tested system----. It's play book / operational manual has already been written down----all its known and " unknown " quirks are already know----. The " wheel " for the M2K9 has already been invented---the J10B needs its wheel to be " invented " & made operational.

True you will have to start from scratch for the J10:

Servicebility: PAF will need established IOM from the chinese for TPM of the aircraft every 500 to 1000 hrs of flight time. You will need the same for the Mirage 2000. (the assumption being chinese will give you the IOM and spares package and techincian training for every unit just like the french or the americans), You will also need the same for mirage 2k, the only way J10 would take longer is if you are implying that CAC is unable to give you the same support compared to dassault.

Tactics: Flight crew training and tactics are developed by the air force training school, and not the manufacturer. And for Unstable Delta FBW aircraft, PAF would need to develop the flight profile and optimize and develop the training program for the Mirage 2K from scratch as PAF doesn't operate any such aircraft with similar flight characteristics, on the other had for an aircraft like j10 which allegedly has similarities wit F16's flight profile, the training program from F16 can be utilized or atleast leveraged. Apart from that PAF shares good relations with PLAAF which can help PAF develop it's training program at an accelrated pace, similar to support provided by USAF during F16 procurement.

For additional capabilities and sqdn stregth, Additional F16 or JF17's are the most cost and resource effective solution. Both J10 and additional M2K's would be a drain on PAF