Pakistan-A real market for the Mirage 2000-9 ?

[Zarvan]

I think Pakistan should go for them and and dealing with UAE will also be easy I think Pakistan should not miss the chance

---------- Post added at 02:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:07 PM ----------

Pakistan can also replace its older Mirages with these new ones

 

[rockstarIN]

Nope, the difference is that F-16s have been continuously evolved with new features and major upgrades from the previous blocks and the production line is still operational while that for mirage-2000 is being closed also not to forget that only minor changes were made by the french in mirages on their own so they had nothing much improved to offer, the rest changes were made on the demand of the users unlike f-16s where every new block was emerged and offered to the customers.

Also CFTs as well as AESA were and are offered with f-16s along with new weapons while none was the case with mirage-2000, the latest f-16's can fire all the latest weaponary in the US inventory unlike mirage which needs specific upgrades to fire new systems , also not to forget the wide range of weapon usage and sensors f-16 offers if they are released to the customers .

F-16 has evolved over the time with "continuous improvement" strategy but for france the next step from mirage-2000 was mirage-4000 and then Rafale

You missed the point,

M2k & F-16 introduced around the same time, both are from the same era.

If some product is 'selling' in the market, the production line will be open, French was not able to sell M2k much so they closed its production line whereas Americans were able to sell it---using whatever methods---- can keep the production line open. F-16 AESA was funded by U A E. If somebody funds AESA production for M2k, France might have gone for it, its simple.

And the newest Blks of F-16s are comparable with the upgraded M2ks. The point is the USA are good sellers (even they sold non-BVR F-16 to Egypt in good numbers) and France are not. as MK mentioned, it is just a perception that French is not comparable with other top systems.


had the Kargil episode happened 2-3 year before 1999, the Mirage line would have still opened for India.

 

[MZUBAIR]

I think Pakistan should go for them and and dealing with UAE will also be easy I think Pakistan should not miss the chance

---------- Post added at 02:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:07 PM ----------

Pakistan can also replace its older Mirages with these new ones

Wts the benefit in getting Mirage2K-9

We are moving towards AESA radars, latest AtoA, AtoG weapons......electronic suits etc.....
Y PAF move back 2 decade old Aircrafts???

 

[Zarvan]

Wts the benefit in getting Mirage2K-9

We are moving towards AESA radars, latest AtoA, AtoG weapons......electronic suits etc.....
Y PAF move back 2 decade old Aircrafts???

If we can get them with really good and easy price and if France agrees to upgrade them as much as they can be upgraded than what do you have to say about it ?

 

[Mani2020]

You missed the point,

M2k & F-16 introduced around the same time, both are from the same era.

If some product is 'selling' in the market, the production line will be open, French was not able to sell M2k much so they closed its production line whereas Americans were able to sell it---using whatever methods---- can keep the production line open

And you missed a point here, US was able to sell F-16 unlike france because US focused on continuously improving F-16 while same was not done by France, if same would have been done by France we might have seen new customers for m-2000 and that is the thing i emphasized on in my last post. You can only market when you have something to and French had nothing compared to the sophistication US brought into the f-16s with every passing year .

F-16 AESA was funded by U A E. If somebody funds AESA production for M2k, France might have gone for it, its simple.

Secondly regarding AESA , the AESA which was funded by UAE was for themselves but i am talking about the new AESA which will be available to the f-16 users around 2012-13 and is worked on by US independently .

And the newest Blks of F-16s are comparable with the upgraded M2ks. .

For the the second time you again missed my point , i clearly mentioned that France did just minor changes on their own while the major upgrades were done on customer demand unlike US who were no dependent on customer demands and all the major upgrades were done on their own and then were offered to the customers .

The point is the USA are good sellers (even they sold non-BVR F-16 to Egypt in good numbers) and France are not. as MK mentioned, it is just a perception that French is not comparable with other top systems

The Egypt had no option too, even the Egypt mirage-2000's bought from France are without any bvr missile, the matter of fact is that due to Israel and US Pressure no NATO country was willing to provide Egypt with bvr missiles , so for them F-16's or mirage-2000s all are same because both come without bvr missiles .

 

[Mani2020]

I think Pakistan should go for them and and dealing with UAE will also be easy I think Pakistan should not miss the chance

---------- Post added at 02:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:07 PM ----------

Pakistan can also replace its older Mirages with these new ones

It was only good for PAF back in 90's but now after the introduction of jf-17 and j-10, mirage-2000 will only contribute to maintenance nightmare as it will lead PAF to have 4-5 different platforms when PAF is looking to have only 3 kind of platforms

 

[Windjammer]

Some years back, UAE was keen to sell off it's older Mirage-2000s, it was negotiating with Pakistan but then India started showing keen interest, since it was already operating the type..... Pakistan pulled out since there was a minimal numbers involved.
Last i heard was that there was some contention between the two....over the price.
Anyway, surprised that India has not jumped to the opportunity for quickly replacing the accident prone MIGs and some other airframes.

 

[rockstarIN]

=Mani2020;2109551]And you missed a point here, US was able to sell F-16 unlike france because US focused on continuously improving F-16 while same was not done by France, if same would have been done by France we might have seen new customers for m-2000 and that is the thing i emphasized on in my last post. You can only market when you have something to and French had nothing compared to the sophistication US brought into the f-16s with every passing year .

Mirage 2000 C = Interceptor role introduced in 1982.

Radar Doppler Impulse (RDI) built by Thales for the Mirage 2000C entered service in 1987.
It has a much improved range of about 150 km, and is linked to Matra Super 530D missiles, which are much improved compared to the older Super 530F. Look-down/shoot-down capabilities are much improved as well.

Mirage 2000-5

Improvements included the Thales TV/CT CLDP laser designator pod as well as the Thales multimode RDY (Radar Doppler Multitarget), which allows detection of up to 24 targets and the ability to simultaneously track 8 threats while guiding 4 MICA missiles to different targets. Updates to defensive systems included the ICMS 2 countermeasures suite and the Samir DDM missile warning system. ICMS 2 incorporates a receiver and associated signal processing system in the nose for detecting hostile missile command data links, and can be interfaced to a new programmable mission-planning and post-mission analysis ground system. Avionics were also updated, using a new Night vision-compatible glass cockpit layout borrowed from the Rafale, a dual-linked wide-angle Head-up display, and HOTAS controls.

Mirage 2000-5 Mark 2

Dassault further improved the Mirage 2000-5, creating the Mirage 2000-5 Mark 2 which is currently the most advanced variant of the Mirage 2000. Enhancements to offensive systems included a datalink for the targeting of MICA ER missiles, the addition of the Damocles FLIR targeting pod, and a newer, stealthier Thales RDY-2 all-weather synthetic aperture radar with moving target indicator capability, which also grants the aircraft improved air-to-ground capability. The avionics were further updated with higher resolution color displays, an optional Topsight helmet-mounted display, and the addition of the Modular Data Processing Unit (MDPU) designed for the Rafale. A new Thales Totem 3000 inertial navigation system with ring laser gyroscope and GPS capability was added, providing much greater accuracy, higher reliability, and shorter alignment time than the older ULISS 52 navigation system which it replaced. Other upgrades included the addition of an on-board oxygen generation system (OBOGS) for the pilot and an ICMS 3 digital countermeasures suite.

Further planned upgrades will include Thales AIDA visual identification pod, a GPS receiver, MIDS datalink, new long-range sensors, and the Topsight E helmet-mounted display. Other technology developed for the Rafale will also be integrated into the Mirage 2000, including infrared and optical sensors for IFF and targeting.

Infact there were upgrades periodically in M2k, but not marketed well unlike F-16, block wise

Secondly regarding AESA , the AESA which was funded by UAE was for themselves but i am talking about the new AESA which will be available to the f-16 users around 2012-13 and is worked on by US independently .

I don't think there is any AESA programme going on for F-16s.They offered almost same version which UAE has. Also the last F-16 orders might be from Iraq. Here too you can sense the US soft power for weapon sale.

For the the second time you again missed my point , i clearly mentioned that France did just minor changes on their own while the major upgrades were done on customer demand unlike US who were no dependent on customer demands and all the major upgrades were done on their own and then were offered to the customers .

They were improving their weapon systems from Magic to Magic 2, Matra R 530 to Super Matra Super 530 and finally MICA series.

There is plenty of improvements in Radars, avionics, Targeting pods etc. etc.

F-16s were sold in thousands and can't compare the size of USAF and FrIF. USAF themselves using lots of F-16s.


T

he Egypt had no option too, even the Egypt mirage-2000's bought from France are without any bvr missile, the matter of fact is that due to Israel and US Pressure no NATO country was willing to provide Egypt with bvr missiles , so for them F-16's or mirage-2000s all are same because both come without bvr missiles

Egyptians were received Matra BVRs.

 

[Battle Axe]

As been said countless times, it is the logistical costs which are not going to be feasible when we decide to operate a new type of AC and that to be in such low numbers...

 

[SQ8]

Current F-16 AESA upgrades offered include the NG SABR and the Raytheon RACR for existing F-16A/B's and C/D's.
The APG-80 has been designed specifically for the E/F and available only to that structural and power pack.

None of the M2K upgrades make any mention of major structural changes or otherwise. .. the impression of a "new machine" has never been emphasized.

 

[Luftwaffe]

Also Amir the thing is that we are getting our f-16 complete MLU upgrades which not only includes avionics, radar, new HMS and engine changes but also structural changes resulting the expansion of their lives at almost half of a price of the Mirage-2000 upgrade offered by france to our neighbours , When mirage-2000 upgrades are less extensive than the f-16 MLU .There are negativities too but as we are talking just about technical basis , so for that other factors should be ignored and the stated comparison must be just on technical basis

The discussion has changed its course, We from initial acquiring have gone towards "IF We Had" those responsible must be dealt with there is no sparing no armed forces NRO. Non of you have yet answered about why PAF settled for inferior mig-21 variant and then settled for the even more inferior variant with-in why you people went back and fourth thrice, facts cannot be ignored.

Everything that F-16s has is also available for Mirage 2000 that is biased commentary to project Mirage 2000 as inferior, it has gone though several major upgrades, on technical basis Mirage 2000-5/9 are equal and as good as Block 52, indians are not fools and French are operating 12 squadrons.

 

[MastanKhan]

Nope, the difference is that F-16s have been continuously evolved with new features and major upgrades from the previous blocks and the production line is still operational while that for mirage-2000 is being closed also not to forget that only minor changes were made by the french in mirages on their own so they had nothing much improved to offer, the rest changes were made on the demand of the users unlike f-16s where every new block was emerged and offered to the customers.

Also CFTs as well as AESA were and are offered with f-16s along with new weapons while none was the case with mirage-2000, the latest f-16's can fire all the latest weaponary in the US inventory unlike mirage which needs specific upgrades to fire new systems , also not to forget the wide range of weapon usage and sensors f-16 offers if they are released to the customers .

F-16 has evolved over the time with "continuous improvement" strategy but for france the next step from mirage-2000 was mirage-4000 and then Rafale

Mani,

Going in circles now---ain't we----The M2k9 is to complement the capabilities of the F16 blk52----at this stage under current conditions. The JF17 and FC20 are awhile away from being able to perform at 110% of their capabilities. Indeed some of the capabilities between the blk52 and the m2k9 maybe dissimiliar but are no less important.

M2K9 --- 70 in number in paf colors changes the balance of power in the region drastically----.

 

[Luftwaffe]

Current F-16 AESA upgrades offered include the NG SABR and the Raytheon RACR for existing F-16A/B's and C/D's.

It is not offered to PAF hence there is no point to relate AESA radars to PAF F-16s therefore we're on the same level Mirages -5/9.

 

[Rafi]

I think the public has voted even at $20m each those 69 mirage2000 are deemed a unnecessary expense and dont bring enough to the table.

THERE seems a massive reliance on the very small fleet of F16s which is understable given the sucess of the AMERICANs in any air war.

BUT DONT EXPECT any where near the same support back up that israel gets during war time FOR PAF F16s. At best the USA will sanction both IAF AND PAF and withold spares AND AT WORST if they back india they will pass on sensitive information/data re the F16 FLEET OF THE PAF.

This is whjy some people feel over reliance on USA equipment is a dangerous scenario for pakistan. USA INDIA ties are growing stronger all the time.

Crippling the PAF could be one of the triggers for deployment of WMD.

 

[notorious_eagle]

I guess to put it simple, the Mirage 2000-9 does not add any value to the PAF's fighter fleet which the JF17 and J10 cannot add. The addition of the Mirage 2000-9 to PAF's fighter fleet is going to be a waste of time and resources, and PAF has made the right call by steering clear of this aircraft.