Pak to buy U214 - Senate debating reports of faults
- Thread starter Bilal Hussain Khan
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No you are wrong, albiet larger U-214 is degraded export version of U-212, and there is no doubt about that. Googlee it up
The U-212A is the best sub in that family
AgNoStiC MuSliM
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No you are wrong, albiet larger U-214 is degraded export version of U-212, and there is no doubt about that. Googlee it up
The U-212A is the best sub in that family
His last post just pointed out the differences between the two subs, as well as the limitations of the 212, such as being primarily designed for littoral operations. The other thing is that on a "discussion board", telling other members to go google something does not add anything of value to the discussion. Could you provide excerpts and links to sites that discuss your POV instead please, and/or offer your own analysis as to why you believe that?
ejaz007
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Dear Josh21X, you are wrong U214 is an improved version of U212. Two main areas of improvement are the AIP system and diving depth. See attached report and link
Naval Technology - U212/U214 - Attack Submarine
U212 / U214 Attack Submarines, Germany
The U212 submarine is capable of long-distance submerged passage to the area of operation. The German Navy has ordered four of the submarines.
The Type 212 is being constructed by Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft GmbH (HDW) of Kiel and Thyssen Nordseewerke GmbH (TNSW) of Enden. HDW is responsible for the bow sections and TNSW for the stern section. HDW is assembling the first and third vessels, TNSW the second and fourth. U31, the first of class, was launched in March 2002 and commissioned in October 2005.
"The U212 submarine is capable of long-distance submerged passage to the area of operation."The second, U32, was launched in December 2003 and was also commissioned in October 2005. The third, U33, was launched in September 2004 and commissioned in June 2006. U34 was launched in July 2005 and is scheduled for delivery by the end of 2006.
In September 2006, the German Navy ordered two further U212 submarines, to be delivered in 2012/2013. The new vessels will have improved network-centric communications, combat system and sensors.
Two U212 submarines are being built by Fincantieri for the Italian Navy. The first, S526 Salvatore Todaro, was launched in November 2003 and was commissioned in June 2005. The second, Scire, was launched in December 2004 and will commission in 2007.
COMMAND AND WEAPONS CONTROL SYSTEM
The Type 212 is equipped with a highly integrated command and weapons control system which interfaces with sensors, weapons and navigation system. The system is based on a high-performance databus and a distributed computer system, the Basic Command & Weapons Control System (Basic CWCS) supplied by Konsberg Defence & Aerospace of Norway under the trade name MSI-90U.
TORPEDOES
There are six torpedo tubes in two groups of three. Type 212 is equipped with a water ram expulsion system for torpedo launch. The submarine is equipped with the DM2A4 heavyweight torpedo weapon system from Atlas Elektronik.
COUNTERMEASURES
EADS Systems & Defence Electronics and Thales Defence Ltd have been awarded a contract to develop the FL1800U electronic warfare system for the German and Italian Navies' U212 submarines. The 1800U is a submarine version of the FL1800 S-II which is in service on the Brandenburg and Bremen Class frigates.
A consortium lead by ATLAS Elektronik and ELAC are responsible for the development of the TAU 2000 torpedo countermeasures system. TAU 2000 has four launch containers, each with up to ten discharge tubes equipped with effectors.
"There are six torpedo tubes on the U212."The effectors are small underwater vehicles, similar in appearance to a torpedo. The effectors are jammers and decoys with hydrophones and acoustic emitters. Multiple effectors are deployed in order to counter torpedoes in re-attack mode.
SENSORS
The submarine is equipped with an integrated DBQS sonar system which has: cylindrical array for passive medium-frequency detection; a TAS-3 low-frequency towed array sonar; FAS-3 flank array sonar for low- / medium-frequency detection; passive ranging sonar; and hostile sonar intercept system. The active high-frequency mine detection sonar is the Atlas Elektronik MOA 3070.
The search periscope is the Zeiss Optronik SERO 14 with optical rangefinder, thermal imager and global positioning system. The Zeiss SERO 15 attack periscope is equipped with laser rangefinder.
PROPULSION
The propulsion system combines a conventional system consisting of a diesel generator with a lead acid battery, and an Air-Independent Propulsion (AIP) system, used for silent slow cruising, with a fuel cell equipped with oxygen and hydrogen storage. The system consists of nine PEM (Polymer Electrolyte Membrane) fuel cells, providing between 30kW and 50kW each.
For higher speeds, connection is made to the high-performance lead acid battery. An MTU 16V-396 diesel engine powers the generator from Piller GmbH for charging the battery installed on the lower of the two decks at the forward section of the submarine.
"The 214 submarine is a further improvement on the Type 212."The diesel generator plant is mounted on a swinging deck platform with double elastic mounts for noise and vibration isolation. The propeller motor is directly coupled to the seven-bladed screwback propeller.
TYPE 214
HDW has developed the Type 214 submarine, which is a further improvement on the Type 212. The Greek Navy has ordered three Type 214 submarines. The first, Papanikolis (S120), was built at the HDW Kiel shipyard and was launched in April 2004. It is scheduled to commission in 2006.
Hellenic Shipyards will build the second (Pipinos S121) and third (Matrozos 122) vessels at Skaramanga, for commission in 2008-09. Hellenic Shipyards was acquired by HDW in May 2002. A fourth vessel, Katsonis (S123), was ordered by Greece in June 2002 and is expected to commission in 2010.
South Korea has also ordered three Type 214, to enter service in 2007, 2008 and 2009. These are being built by Hyundai Heavy Industries. The first, to be called Admiral Sohn Won-il, was launched in June 2006. the submarines will form the KSS2 Class.
The Type 214 will have an increased diving depth of over 400m, due to improvements in the pressure hull materials. Hull length is 65m and displacement 1,700t. Four of the eight torpedo tubes will be capable of firing missiles.
Type 214 submarines for the Hellenic Navy will be armed with the WASS (Whitehead Alenia Sistemi Subaquei) Black Shark heavyweight torpedo. The Black Shark is a dual-purpose, wire-guided torpedo which is fitted with Astra active / passive acoustic head and a multi-target guidance and control unit incorporating a counter-countermeasures system. It has an electrical propulsion system based on a silver oxide and aluminium battery.
"The Type 214 will have an increased diving depth of over 400m."Performance of the AIP system has been increased with two Siemens PEM fuel cells which produce 120kW per module and will give the submarine an underwater endurance of two weeks. A hull shape which has been further optimised for hydrodynamic and stealth characteristics and a low-noise propeller combine to decrease the submarine's acoustic signature.
The Integrated Sensor Underwater System ISUS 90, from ATLAS Elektronik integrates all sensors, command and control functions on board the submarine. BAE Systems provides the Link 11 tactical data link. The sensor suite of the U214 submarine consists of the sonar systems, an attack periscope and an optronic mast. The submarine's electronic support measures system and global positioning system sensors are also installed on the optronic mast.
Naval Technology - U212/U214 - Attack Submarine
U212 / U214 Attack Submarines, Germany
The U212 submarine is capable of long-distance submerged passage to the area of operation. The German Navy has ordered four of the submarines.
The Type 212 is being constructed by Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft GmbH (HDW) of Kiel and Thyssen Nordseewerke GmbH (TNSW) of Enden. HDW is responsible for the bow sections and TNSW for the stern section. HDW is assembling the first and third vessels, TNSW the second and fourth. U31, the first of class, was launched in March 2002 and commissioned in October 2005.
"The U212 submarine is capable of long-distance submerged passage to the area of operation."The second, U32, was launched in December 2003 and was also commissioned in October 2005. The third, U33, was launched in September 2004 and commissioned in June 2006. U34 was launched in July 2005 and is scheduled for delivery by the end of 2006.
In September 2006, the German Navy ordered two further U212 submarines, to be delivered in 2012/2013. The new vessels will have improved network-centric communications, combat system and sensors.
Two U212 submarines are being built by Fincantieri for the Italian Navy. The first, S526 Salvatore Todaro, was launched in November 2003 and was commissioned in June 2005. The second, Scire, was launched in December 2004 and will commission in 2007.
COMMAND AND WEAPONS CONTROL SYSTEM
The Type 212 is equipped with a highly integrated command and weapons control system which interfaces with sensors, weapons and navigation system. The system is based on a high-performance databus and a distributed computer system, the Basic Command & Weapons Control System (Basic CWCS) supplied by Konsberg Defence & Aerospace of Norway under the trade name MSI-90U.
TORPEDOES
There are six torpedo tubes in two groups of three. Type 212 is equipped with a water ram expulsion system for torpedo launch. The submarine is equipped with the DM2A4 heavyweight torpedo weapon system from Atlas Elektronik.
COUNTERMEASURES
EADS Systems & Defence Electronics and Thales Defence Ltd have been awarded a contract to develop the FL1800U electronic warfare system for the German and Italian Navies' U212 submarines. The 1800U is a submarine version of the FL1800 S-II which is in service on the Brandenburg and Bremen Class frigates.
A consortium lead by ATLAS Elektronik and ELAC are responsible for the development of the TAU 2000 torpedo countermeasures system. TAU 2000 has four launch containers, each with up to ten discharge tubes equipped with effectors.
"There are six torpedo tubes on the U212."The effectors are small underwater vehicles, similar in appearance to a torpedo. The effectors are jammers and decoys with hydrophones and acoustic emitters. Multiple effectors are deployed in order to counter torpedoes in re-attack mode.
SENSORS
The submarine is equipped with an integrated DBQS sonar system which has: cylindrical array for passive medium-frequency detection; a TAS-3 low-frequency towed array sonar; FAS-3 flank array sonar for low- / medium-frequency detection; passive ranging sonar; and hostile sonar intercept system. The active high-frequency mine detection sonar is the Atlas Elektronik MOA 3070.
The search periscope is the Zeiss Optronik SERO 14 with optical rangefinder, thermal imager and global positioning system. The Zeiss SERO 15 attack periscope is equipped with laser rangefinder.
PROPULSION
The propulsion system combines a conventional system consisting of a diesel generator with a lead acid battery, and an Air-Independent Propulsion (AIP) system, used for silent slow cruising, with a fuel cell equipped with oxygen and hydrogen storage. The system consists of nine PEM (Polymer Electrolyte Membrane) fuel cells, providing between 30kW and 50kW each.
For higher speeds, connection is made to the high-performance lead acid battery. An MTU 16V-396 diesel engine powers the generator from Piller GmbH for charging the battery installed on the lower of the two decks at the forward section of the submarine.
"The 214 submarine is a further improvement on the Type 212."The diesel generator plant is mounted on a swinging deck platform with double elastic mounts for noise and vibration isolation. The propeller motor is directly coupled to the seven-bladed screwback propeller.
TYPE 214
HDW has developed the Type 214 submarine, which is a further improvement on the Type 212. The Greek Navy has ordered three Type 214 submarines. The first, Papanikolis (S120), was built at the HDW Kiel shipyard and was launched in April 2004. It is scheduled to commission in 2006.
Hellenic Shipyards will build the second (Pipinos S121) and third (Matrozos 122) vessels at Skaramanga, for commission in 2008-09. Hellenic Shipyards was acquired by HDW in May 2002. A fourth vessel, Katsonis (S123), was ordered by Greece in June 2002 and is expected to commission in 2010.
South Korea has also ordered three Type 214, to enter service in 2007, 2008 and 2009. These are being built by Hyundai Heavy Industries. The first, to be called Admiral Sohn Won-il, was launched in June 2006. the submarines will form the KSS2 Class.
The Type 214 will have an increased diving depth of over 400m, due to improvements in the pressure hull materials. Hull length is 65m and displacement 1,700t. Four of the eight torpedo tubes will be capable of firing missiles.
Type 214 submarines for the Hellenic Navy will be armed with the WASS (Whitehead Alenia Sistemi Subaquei) Black Shark heavyweight torpedo. The Black Shark is a dual-purpose, wire-guided torpedo which is fitted with Astra active / passive acoustic head and a multi-target guidance and control unit incorporating a counter-countermeasures system. It has an electrical propulsion system based on a silver oxide and aluminium battery.
"The Type 214 will have an increased diving depth of over 400m."Performance of the AIP system has been increased with two Siemens PEM fuel cells which produce 120kW per module and will give the submarine an underwater endurance of two weeks. A hull shape which has been further optimised for hydrodynamic and stealth characteristics and a low-noise propeller combine to decrease the submarine's acoustic signature.
The Integrated Sensor Underwater System ISUS 90, from ATLAS Elektronik integrates all sensors, command and control functions on board the submarine. BAE Systems provides the Link 11 tactical data link. The sensor suite of the U214 submarine consists of the sonar systems, an attack periscope and an optronic mast. The submarine's electronic support measures system and global positioning system sensors are also installed on the optronic mast.
AgNoStiC MuSliM
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Here is an interesting (and contradicting) set of explanations about what the hull of the U-214 will be composed off.
However, a search on austenitic steel brought this up:
Is stainless steel non-magnetic?
So if the characteristics of the U-214 are stated correctly, then its hull made of austenitic steel should be non-magnetic, with further improvements over the 212 allowing it to dive to 400 meters.
Type 214 submarine: Information from Answers.com
Type 214
However, a search on austenitic steel brought this up:
Is stainless steel non-magnetic?
So if the characteristics of the U-214 are stated correctly, then its hull made of austenitic steel should be non-magnetic, with further improvements over the 212 allowing it to dive to 400 meters.
U214 / Katsonis
The U214-class submarines are an advanced and larger derivative of U212 submarines. The U214 submarines will feature 8 533mm torpedo tubes and will be able to fire missiles through them. The new class of submarines will feature improved hydrogen fuel cells and diesel propulsion system. They will be stealth and more capable than U212-class submarines..
Greece and South Korea have ordered 3 U214 submarines each with the first one commissioned by the Greek Navy in 2005 and the first Korean submarine commissioned in 2007. Greece could get one additional U214 submarine as option increasing the total number of U214s owned by its Navy to four.
These submarines will be built by Hellenic Shipyards and Hyundai Heavy Industries for Greece and South Korea respectively.
The U214-class submarines are an advanced and larger derivative of U212 submarines. The U214 submarines will feature 8 533mm torpedo tubes and will be able to fire missiles through them. The new class of submarines will feature improved hydrogen fuel cells and diesel propulsion system. They will be stealth and more capable than U212-class submarines..
Greece and South Korea have ordered 3 U214 submarines each with the first one commissioned by the Greek Navy in 2005 and the first Korean submarine commissioned in 2007. Greece could get one additional U214 submarine as option increasing the total number of U214s owned by its Navy to four.
These submarines will be built by Hellenic Shipyards and Hyundai Heavy Industries for Greece and South Korea respectively.
PakShaheen79
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I think PN opt for the U-214 just to integrate Harpoons Block II on these boats while French were offering lower range SM-39s. Another area is IDAS project for hunting down choppers/ASW planes. I thinking PN is also eying on that thing as well.
su-47
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I just posted what i had read somewhere. i think it was wikipedia. i know how wikipedia articles can sometimes b unreliable.
No problem buddy!
Of course there are other more advantages when the sub is bigger, which includes allowing more room for personnel, and other systems during the war scenario. I think it is totally a good pick. These subs with Agosta-90B, and modern frigates and corvettes can easily guard more than the coast!
HAIDER
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Some interesting facts about failure of Merlin deal.
French naval export company Armaris, in a bold commercial move, has proposed a license deal that would permit Pakistan to build all three Marlin submarines the company offered in its bid for Islamabads diesel-electric submarine program, a French industry official said.
This is one deal we have to win, the official said. The sale is worth around $1 billion.
Germanys HDW has made a rival bid with its 214 sub, he said. The building of all three Marlin boats locally would mark a departure from previous French submarine sales.
In the 1994 sale of three Agosta 90B Khalid submarines to Islmabad, Frances DCN built the first in series and transferred production of the other two boats to Pakistan. The French sale of six Scorpene subs to India earlier this year followed the same industrial model.
Armaris on Aug. 26 submitted its Marlin offer to Pakistan. The offer was for the submarine only, without SM39 Exocet anti-ship missiles, as Pakistan has said it wants to arm the boats with Boeing Harpoon missiles. The boats would be fitted for, but not with, the Harpoons, the official said. The cost of integration of the U.S.-built missiles would be in Pakistans charge.
Armaris is a 50-50 joint venture company of DCN and Thales. In Bulgarias tender for four corvettes, Armaris has arranged debt financing for a purchase with a pool of banks led by French bank Societé Générale, the official said. The banks would lend Bulgaria money to buy the warships, with repayment guaranteed by the Coface export credit agency.
The Bulgarian Navy put Armaris Gowind corvette at the top of the list after the tender closed, and the French company is waiting for a decision from the Bulgarian government, the official said. The corvette deal is worth 700 million to 800 million euros ($888 million to $1 billion).
http://www.eca-watch.org/problems/arms/DNews_French_Pakistan_Bulgaria_Arms_deals_12sep06.htm
French naval export company Armaris, in a bold commercial move, has proposed a license deal that would permit Pakistan to build all three Marlin submarines the company offered in its bid for Islamabads diesel-electric submarine program, a French industry official said.
This is one deal we have to win, the official said. The sale is worth around $1 billion.
Germanys HDW has made a rival bid with its 214 sub, he said. The building of all three Marlin boats locally would mark a departure from previous French submarine sales.
In the 1994 sale of three Agosta 90B Khalid submarines to Islmabad, Frances DCN built the first in series and transferred production of the other two boats to Pakistan. The French sale of six Scorpene subs to India earlier this year followed the same industrial model.
Armaris on Aug. 26 submitted its Marlin offer to Pakistan. The offer was for the submarine only, without SM39 Exocet anti-ship missiles, as Pakistan has said it wants to arm the boats with Boeing Harpoon missiles. The boats would be fitted for, but not with, the Harpoons, the official said. The cost of integration of the U.S.-built missiles would be in Pakistans charge.
Armaris is a 50-50 joint venture company of DCN and Thales. In Bulgarias tender for four corvettes, Armaris has arranged debt financing for a purchase with a pool of banks led by French bank Societé Générale, the official said. The banks would lend Bulgaria money to buy the warships, with repayment guaranteed by the Coface export credit agency.
The Bulgarian Navy put Armaris Gowind corvette at the top of the list after the tender closed, and the French company is waiting for a decision from the Bulgarian government, the official said. The corvette deal is worth 700 million to 800 million euros ($888 million to $1 billion).
http://www.eca-watch.org/problems/arms/DNews_French_Pakistan_Bulgaria_Arms_deals_12sep06.htm
I dont know about Gotland, but it does come close to Amur (new ones).
F.O.X
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Dive depth: for the 214 it is 400m against the 300 of the Scorpene.
Endurance : for the 214 is 84 days against the 50 for the DCN submarine. You then have the operating range: 12,000 nautical miles for the 214 v 6,400 miles for the Scropene and that is travelling at an efficient 8 knots.
In terms of payload : the 214 can hold more being the bigger sub and has 8 torpedo tubes in comparison to the Scorpene six.
Regards
Wilco
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