Pak to buy U214 - Senate debating reports of faults
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IceCold
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Ministry asked to explain preference for faulty German subs
By Shakil Shaikh
ISLAMABAD: The Senate Standing Committee on Defence has sought an explanation from the Defence Ministry over the controversial purchase of German submarines U-214, which have been found to be lacking stability in rough sea conditions, having faulty Air Independent Propulsion system, vacillating periscopes and were easy to detect.
Committee Chairman Nisar Memon has sought explanation along with full information as to why such subs are being purchased by the Pakistan Navy, though the manufacturers have not yet obtained European Export License.
On the recommendations of the Navy, the Defence Production Division has decided to purchase $1 billion worth of three German manufactured U-214 submarines on a single source basis.
“These subs are not in the service of any navy of the world,” a senior official confirmed to The News. The source said that U-214 manufacturer Howakltsworker-Deutsche Werft GMBH (HDW) had not yet obtained export clearance from the German government or the US Congress for the export of these faulty subs to Pakistan.
The German team, said the source, was summoned for a meeting to discuss various basic issues relating to technicalities of these subs on September 22 this year, but that the meeting did not take place and would now take place in November this year.
Another source said that the submarine section of the Navy had already raised its eyebrows over the functioning and performance of these subs. Some people have already approached the Senate Standing Committee raising many issues.
First, the U-214 (Papanikolis) lacks stability while sailing in rough sea conditions ranging from 35 to 58 degrees. The Greek sea is not so rough as the sea around Pakistan. Two, the Air Independent Propulsion system malfunctions after few hours of sailing.
Three, the sub is not that quiet as is supposed to be, so it is easy to detect it. Four, when the sub is sailing at more than 3 knots, the periscope starts wobbling so there are troubles in looking at the target.
Five, the Greek Navy did not accept the first submarine of Papanikolis class and the HDW will have to pay a penalty of 210 million Euros. The German company HDW and the German government are forcing the Greek government to accept a bad submarine. The HDW has even fired 12 people from the Greek shipyard Skaramanga (full subsidiary of HDW) to push the Greek government to accept the submarine called Papanikolis.
Inquiries are also being held on the performance of Air Propulsion (AIP) system, which was included during the Greek U-214 Sea Acceptance Tests. It was noted by the Greek Navy that the AIP was overheating (despite tests being conducted in Norway) and that the AIP was not capable of delivering the energy it had been designed to deliver.
The source said how it was possible for Pak Navy to build subs in a short time than Agosta with less technical assistance, keeping in mind that the technology provider was using different methodology and it was not clear how much additional cost and delay would be caused due to the change of technology provider.
Ministry asked to explain preference for faulty German subs
By Shakil Shaikh
ISLAMABAD: The Senate Standing Committee on Defence has sought an explanation from the Defence Ministry over the controversial purchase of German submarines U-214, which have been found to be lacking stability in rough sea conditions, having faulty Air Independent Propulsion system, vacillating periscopes and were easy to detect.
Committee Chairman Nisar Memon has sought explanation along with full information as to why such subs are being purchased by the Pakistan Navy, though the manufacturers have not yet obtained European Export License.
On the recommendations of the Navy, the Defence Production Division has decided to purchase $1 billion worth of three German manufactured U-214 submarines on a single source basis.
“These subs are not in the service of any navy of the world,” a senior official confirmed to The News. The source said that U-214 manufacturer Howakltsworker-Deutsche Werft GMBH (HDW) had not yet obtained export clearance from the German government or the US Congress for the export of these faulty subs to Pakistan.
The German team, said the source, was summoned for a meeting to discuss various basic issues relating to technicalities of these subs on September 22 this year, but that the meeting did not take place and would now take place in November this year.
Another source said that the submarine section of the Navy had already raised its eyebrows over the functioning and performance of these subs. Some people have already approached the Senate Standing Committee raising many issues.
First, the U-214 (Papanikolis) lacks stability while sailing in rough sea conditions ranging from 35 to 58 degrees. The Greek sea is not so rough as the sea around Pakistan. Two, the Air Independent Propulsion system malfunctions after few hours of sailing.
Three, the sub is not that quiet as is supposed to be, so it is easy to detect it. Four, when the sub is sailing at more than 3 knots, the periscope starts wobbling so there are troubles in looking at the target.
Five, the Greek Navy did not accept the first submarine of Papanikolis class and the HDW will have to pay a penalty of 210 million Euros. The German company HDW and the German government are forcing the Greek government to accept a bad submarine. The HDW has even fired 12 people from the Greek shipyard Skaramanga (full subsidiary of HDW) to push the Greek government to accept the submarine called Papanikolis.
Inquiries are also being held on the performance of Air Propulsion (AIP) system, which was included during the Greek U-214 Sea Acceptance Tests. It was noted by the Greek Navy that the AIP was overheating (despite tests being conducted in Norway) and that the AIP was not capable of delivering the energy it had been designed to deliver.
The source said how it was possible for Pak Navy to build subs in a short time than Agosta with less technical assistance, keeping in mind that the technology provider was using different methodology and it was not clear how much additional cost and delay would be caused due to the change of technology provider.
Ministry asked to explain preference for faulty German subs
IceCold
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Maybe. France does not want to let this contract out of her hands.
I doubt the authencity of the source, some facts are wrong! First of all the U-214 is already exported to atleast two countries including Greece and South Korea.
Secondly the author is talking about temp 35-58 degrees in rough seas. Let me tell you that the temp in rough sea seldom reaches 35 degrees, its just not possible!!!
In December 11, 2006, StrategyPage reported that the first Type 214 submarine to be delivered from Germany was found to have numerous technical problems [2]. Among the reported problems with the submarine were noise from the screws, overheating with the fuel cells of the air-independent propulsion system, and excessive rolling in bad weather when travelling on the surface. Many of the reported problems were exaggerated by rumour and press speculation. The overheating of the fuel cells was cured by adjusting the fuel cell heat sensors which had been set too fine, after adjustment the Papanikolis completed a 14 day submerged trial using the fuel cell and her performance exceeded the design parameters. All submarines roll badly on the surface as unlike a surface vessel they have no bilge keels and the report of excessive rolling was untrue. It was also reported that Papanikolis suffered leaks, but the only leak during the trials was when half a litre of water entered the hydraulic system through a loose coupling on a hydraulic pipe under the casing. The second boat, Pipinos was officially launched in February 2007 and is at present going through Greek Harbour Acceptance Trials in Piraeus.
Type 214 submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Type 214 submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
IceCold
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As for now it seems that we are still evaluting the subs and are no way near in reaching an aggrement with the germans. Isnt it taking too long, i mean we are always prone to sactions and as german subs would also require approval from the US, if indeed we are interested in them and not the french, we should try to finalize the deal as soon as possible rather delaying the matter.
fatman17
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wilco - why US approval is required for these subs - the reason in my opinion Pak started looking at the merlins was because the french were not agreeing to configure their subs with the Harpoon-ASM. they wanted pak to take the Exocet-ASM. plus they wanted to charge extra for this change.
Imho Germans have an independant weapon export and controll policy and don't need approval from USA.
To my knowledge U-212/14 is all german design and doesn't need approval from third party.
If we go for this platform we'll be getting them with full ToT. Unlike the Agosta 90B all three will be built in Karachi.
To my knowledge U-212/14 is all german design and doesn't need approval from third party.
If we go for this platform we'll be getting them with full ToT. Unlike the Agosta 90B all three will be built in Karachi.
IceCold
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It was mentioned in one of the articles in this same thread which mentioned regarding the approval of US for this matter.
On the other hand even if we agree that germany doesnt need approval, still these countries follow US policy, any future sactions from the US might result in sactions from germany as well.
We have already seen how US is rasing eye brows on news of pakistan acquring french avonics for its JF17 programe. Though France as compared to germany doesnt really go into the US influence that easily.
fatman17
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wilco - cant apply that assumption with each and every potential export order. JF-17 is more complicated. a lot of countries are involved in the program (russia/china/pak/france(thales)/italy(grifo) and this program impacts other countries like Taiwan / india. so therefore US pressure. with merlins no such issue.
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