Pak to buy U214 - Senate debating reports of faults

[Awesome]

The Germans apparently have the most advanced sub in the market. Which is that one which is quieter than nuclear submarines?

 

[Awesome]

Pak Navy opts for little known German subs

Quite irritating how the author alleges "impropriety" in the acquisition. It's become quite the rage to target the military over everything, forget the fact that they managed to keep a functioning deterrence capability for all these years with almost nothing.

The Marlin is "far better", and the U-214 "a not much known about sub", but lets forget that the Marlin only exists on paper.

That's the sub I was talking about!

FutureWeapons. Episode 2 - Stealth

Forward to 13:30. You'll hear all about this sub! It's pretty amazing Pakistan has managed to strike a deal for this advanced weapon.

 

[waz]

The Germans apparently have the most advanced sub in the market. Which is that one which is quieter than nuclear submarines?

In general the newest diesel submarines are far quieter with their AIP systems and chief amongst is the U-214 with its fuel cell technology which omits less sound than it’s counterparts such as the Stirling a closed-cycle diesel engine seen on the Collins and the MEMSA steam-turbine system as seen on our Agosta submarines.

 

[A.Rahman]

That's the sub I was talking about!

FutureWeapons. Episode 2 - Stealth

Forward to 13:30. You'll hear all about this sub! It's pretty amazing Pakistan has managed to strike a deal for this advanced weapon.

nice video

 

[araz]

Pak Navy opts for little known German subs

Quite irritating how the author alleges "impropriety" in the acquisition. It's become quite the rage to target the military over everything, forget the fact that they managed to keep a functioning deterrence capability for all these years with almost nothing.

The Marlin is "far better", and the U-214 "a not much known about sub", but lets forget that the Marlin only exists on paper.

As Salam oAlaikum.
This is really good piece of news. PN needs these subs following the retirement of the Daphnes and the acquisitions by Indian Navy. This is a really good platform and apparently all the problems with it were teething problems which have been resolved. It is inrteresting that the French first put forward the idea of Marlin, then subsequently withdrew it instead trying to sell us Scorpenes. PN and the armed forces have long avoided the equipment which the Indians possess and therefore this strategy was doomed to be a failure in its own right.
The argument for continuing with the french for ease of integration seems a good one though. However I have to assume that the Germans have offerred a deal which PN quite likes and fulfills its requirements.Any thoughts on what PN would gain with regards to indiginisation?
Another facet may well be a figment of ,my imagination. The Chinese quite liked 212 and apparently their new submarine is a "close resemblance "to it. If we acquire the tech to build the 214s then combining this with help from our friendly neighbour might take us to the next phase of indigenisation.
Another facet of this deal whioch needs to be investigated is what other goodies is PN eyeing along with this order.The Meko series might not be a bad addition to the PN fleet of corvettes and frigates. Any thoughts from members in the know?

 

[EagleEyes]

French, well! They have lost it, and are now crying over it. However, they did play well! They spent quite a good money to sell of Marlin, Scorpion to Pakistan Navy, but well it will not work, because the way how the organizational setup is in place currently. I can bet! That development of Marlin would cost additional, and what turns out of that submarine cannot be expected. We have one of the best submarines in the world right here, and is meeting every requirements of the Navy then why not go for it? It makes sense! Transfer of technology of different parts is still in question, however it would be quite stupid to already choose when you dont know if you will have access to them or not. So they are coming, without any political pressure. There will be a few who will raise a bar, but nonetheless will be bought down immediately. Personally, a very good decision (if finalized) by the Pakistan Navy, and two thumbs up for the guys!

 

[EagleEyes]

[YOUTUBE]

 

[solid snake]

Thanks for the video webmaster. It sure does make the author of that article calling the U-214 an "unknown" look like an idiot. This sub is perfect for the PN - silent, stealthy and deadly.

 

[EagleEyes]

Howaldtswerke Deutsche Werft AG is a mouthful for most Americans, so the company simply refers to itself as HDW. The huge sign at the main entrance to the shipbuilding company in Kiel simply reads, "HDW". During the Second World the shipbuilding company concentrated its efforts on submarines and as a result was a primary target for strategic bombing. It was largely destroyed as a result and as a part of reparations much of the undamaged shipbuilding equipment was dismantled and sent off to victorious nations. An example of an HDW piece of equipment thus transferred is the gigantic crane that is a landmark at the Hunters Point Naval Shipyard.

For many years submarines were repaired at this facility as well as being the location of a submarine training location.

When HDW restarted its shipbuilding there was need of surface ships able to handle the increasing sea transportation of crude oil. When restrictions on submarine building were lifted the company began a limited program of coastal submarine building for the Federal German Navy. With its experience at cold rolling HY 80 and 100 steel the company was able to craft some impressive little submarines with deep submergence capabilities.

In Sweden research was in full swing on an air independent engine called the Sterling Engine. This research was taking a different route to non-nuclear submerged propulsion than its German counterpart. HDW worked with Siemens, a giant German electrical manufacturing company similar to General Electric. At Siemens the emphasis for submarine propulsive power research was the fuel cell. In simplest terms the fuel cell is a submarine battery that can not only be charged by traditional means of current generation, but can be continuously charged by the chemical generation of renewed electrolyte. While the United States had similar interest in the possibility of a fuel cell in the 1950s it had invested so much money into the development of a submarine nuclear reactor that a basic decision was made to concentrate all resources on the nuclear propulsion program.

Because a fuel cell is quiet and a nuclear power plant in noisy experts on submarine propulsion often argue that total reliance on nuclear propulsion is short-sighted. Additionally, the cost of an HDW submarine is about one fifth the cost of a Virginia class submarine. Having said this, one cannot compare cost since the missions and comprehensive capabilities are so divergent.

HDW's most recent submarines, the U-212 and 214 are popular with other nations and those having even the smallest shore desire the prestige of having a submarine force. As a result the United States needs to have a thorough knowledge of how the fuel cell works and what, if any, the prolification of submarine building might have on our submarine fleet.

The U-214 Project will accomplish this in several aspects:

How does a fuel cell work?
How does the Sterling engine work?
Who is building what types of submarines?
How does the fuel cell and Sterling AIP submerged propulsion systems impact United States submarine?

 

[IceCold]

Any news on how far are we in negotiations with the germans for acquiring the U-214. I read it on wikipedia that pakistani officals have entered into negotiations with germans for the acquisition of 4 U-214.

 

[IceCold]

U-Boot-Deal mit Pakistan eingefädelt
Deutsche Firmen wollen drei Superwaffen liefern, Bundesregierung haftet mit 1,03 Milliarden

Ein neues, bislang geheimes Rüstungsprojekt wird durch ein Papier des Bundesfinanzministeriums offenkundig. Es handelt sich um die Lieferung von U-Booten nach Pakistan.

Berlin (ND-Heilig). Ein deutsches Lieferkonsortium verhandelt derzeit mit der pakistanischen Marine »über die Konstruktion und die Lieferung von drei Materialpaketen zum Bau von drei U-Booten«. Die Bundesregierung unterstützt das Vorhaben und unterläuft so abermals den Grundsatz, keine Waffen in Spannungsgebiete zu liefern.
»Das Auftragsvolumen für die drei zur Deckung beantragten Boote beträgt insgesamt rund 1,2 Milliarden Euro. Die Zahlung wird weitgehend während der Lieferphase ... erfolgen, nur ein kleiner Teil wird über einen Kredit finanziert«, heißt es in einer Verschlusssache, die ND vorliegt. Darin sind als »Höchsthaftung des Bundes« 1,029 Milliarden Euro notiert.
Geliefert werden soll das Mo-dernste, was es auf dem konventionellen U-Boot-Markt gibt. Die Brennstoffzellentechnologie macht den Antrieb außenluftunabhängig, die Tauchzeit wird im Vergleich zu herkömmlichen Systemen extrem verlängert, die Boote sind schwer zu orten. Deutschland besitzt bislang nur zwei dieser 212 A-Boote. Hersteller sind die Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW) und die Nordseewerke. Beide gehören zu ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems.
Zwei dieser Angriffsmittel werden nach Israel und damit ebenfalls in ein Spannungsgebiet exportiert. Weitere zwei baut Italien.
Mit dem Pakistan-Auftrag »würde der deutsche Exporteur in die Lage versetzt, die aktuellen Entwicklungserfolge in der Technik der U-Bootfertigung, speziell in der Brennstoffzellentechnologie zu festigen und langfristig zu sichern. Hinzu kommen die entsprechenden Beschäftigungswirkungen bei den kleinen und mittleren Zulieferern in ganz Deutschland«, behauptet die Regierung, ohne das zu belegen. Wichtig sei die »Chance auf künftige Aufträge, da die pakistanische Marine angabegemäß an einer langfristigen strategischen Partnerschaft interessiert ist«.
Pakistan, ein Staat, der über Atomwaffen verfügt und zudem im dringenden Verdacht steht, diverse terroristische Gruppierungen zu unterstützen, leistet sich derzeit einen Rüstungswettlauf vor allem mit Nachbar und Atommacht Indien. Derzeit verfügt die pakistanische Navy über sechs U-Boote französischer Konstruktion, die mit US-»Harpoon«-Marschflugkörpern bestückt sind. Die Boote für Israel sind mit 533-mm-Torpedorohren ausgestattet, aus denen Flugkörper mit atomarem Sprengkopf verschossen werden können. Ob das Pakistan-Projekt auch so ausgestattet ist, ist unbekannt. Bei den Zulieferungen mit im Boot sind die USA und Großbritannien mit 19 Prozent.
Otfried Nassauer, Chef des Berliner Informationszentrums für transatlantische Sicherheit, macht auf die lange Tradition deutsch-pakistanischer Rüstungszusammenarbeit aufmerksam. Das aktuelle Vorhaben hält er für »extrem gefährlich, auch deshalb, weil Deutschland sowohl Israel wie dem islamisch geprägten Pakistan die Möglichkeit eröffnet, im gesamten Indischen Ozean militärisch handlungsfähig zu sein«.

Any one who can translate it in english, an article regarding pakistan negotiations with the germans for U-214

 

[solid snake]

U212 / U214 Attack Submarines, Germany

The U212 submarine is capable of long-distance submerged passage to the area of operation. The German Navy has ordered four of the submarines.

The Type 212 is being constructed by Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft GmbH (HDW) of Kiel and Thyssen Nordseewerke GmbH (TNSW) of Enden. HDW is responsible for the bow sections and TNSW for the stern section. HDW is assembling the first and third vessels, TNSW the second and fourth. U31, the first of class, was launched in March 2002 and commissioned in October 2005.

The second, U32, was launched in December 2003 and was also commissioned in October 2005. The third, U33, was launched in September 2004 and commissioned in June 2006. U34 was launched in July 2005 and is scheduled for delivery by the end of 2006.

In September 2006, the German Navy ordered two further U212 submarines, to be delivered in 2012/2013. The new vessels will have improved network-centric communications, combat system and sensors.

Two U212 submarines are being built by Fincantieri for the Italian Navy. The first, S526 Salvatore Todaro, was launched in November 2003 and was commissioned in June 2005. The second, Scire, was launched in December 2004 and will commission in 2007.

COMMAND AND WEAPONS CONTROL SYSTEM

The Type 212 is equipped with a highly integrated command and weapons control system which interfaces with sensors, weapons and navigation system. The system is based on a high-performance databus and a distributed computer system, the Basic Command & Weapons Control System (Basic CWCS) supplied by Konsberg Defence & Aerospace of Norway under the trade name MSI-90U.

TORPEDOES

There are six torpedo tubes in two groups of three. Type 212 is equipped with a water ram expulsion system for torpedo launch. The submarine is equipped with the DM2A4 heavyweight torpedo weapon system from Atlas Elektronik.

COUNTERMEASURES

EADS Systems & Defence Electronics and Thales Defence Ltd have been awarded a contract to develop the FL1800U electronic warfare system for the German and Italian Navies' U212 submarines. The 1800U is a submarine version of the FL1800 S-II which is in service on the Brandenburg and Bremen Class frigates.

A consortium lead by ATLAS Elektronik and ELAC are responsible for the development of the TAU 2000 torpedo countermeasures system. TAU 2000 has four launch containers, each with up to ten discharge tubes equipped with effectors.

The effectors are small underwater vehicles, similar in appearance to a torpedo. The effectors are jammers and decoys with hydrophones and acoustic emitters. Multiple effectors are deployed in order to counter torpedoes in re-attack mode.

SENSORS

The submarine is equipped with an integrated DBQS sonar system which has: cylindrical array for passive medium-frequency detection; a TAS-3 low-frequency towed array sonar; FAS-3 flank array sonar for low- / medium-frequency detection; passive ranging sonar; and hostile sonar intercept system. The active high-frequency mine detection sonar is the Atlas Elektronik MOA 3070.

The search periscope is the Zeiss Optronik SERO 14 with optical rangefinder, thermal imager and global positioning system. The Zeiss SERO 15 attack periscope is equipped with laser rangefinder.

PROPULSION

The propulsion system combines a conventional system consisting of a diesel generator with a lead acid battery, and an Air-Independent Propulsion (AIP) system, used for silent slow cruising, with a fuel cell equipped with oxygen and hydrogen storage. The system consists of nine PEM (Polymer Electrolyte Membrane) fuel cells, providing between 30kW and 50kW each.

For higher speeds, connection is made to the high-performance lead acid battery. An MTU 16V-396 diesel engine powers the generator from Piller GmbH for charging the battery installed on the lower of the two decks at the forward section of the submarine.

The diesel generator plant is mounted on a swinging deck platform with double elastic mounts for noise and vibration isolation. The propeller motor is directly coupled to the seven-bladed screwback propeller.

TYPE 214

HDW has developed the Type 214 submarine, which is a further improvement on the Type 212. The Greek Navy has ordered three Type 214 submarines. The first, Papanikolis (S120), was built at the HDW Kiel shipyard and was launched in April 2004. It is scheduled to commission in 2006.

Hellenic Shipyards will build the second (Pipinos S121) and third (Matrozos 122) vessels at Skaramanga, for commission in 2008-09. Hellenic Shipyards was acquired by HDW in May 2002. A fourth vessel, Katsonis (S123), was ordered by Greece in June 2002 and is expected to commission in 2010.

South Korea has also ordered three Type 214, to enter service in 2007, 2008 and 2009. These are being built by Hyundai Heavy Industries. The first, to be called Admiral Sohn Won-il, was launched in June 2006. the submarines will form the KSS2 Class.

The Type 214 will have an increased diving depth of over 400m, due to improvements in the pressure hull materials. Hull length is 65m and displacement 1,700t. Four of the eight torpedo tubes will be capable of firing missiles.

Type 214 submarines for the Hellenic Navy will be armed with the WASS (Whitehead Alenia Sistemi Subaquei) Black Shark heavyweight torpedo. The Black Shark is a dual-purpose, wire-guided torpedo which is fitted with Astra active / passive acoustic head and a multi-target guidance and control unit incorporating a counter-countermeasures system. It has an electrical propulsion system based on a silver oxide and aluminium battery.

Performance of the AIP system has been increased with two Siemens PEM fuel cells which produce 120kW per module and will give the submarine an underwater endurance of two weeks. A hull shape which has been further optimised for hydrodynamic and stealth characteristics and a low-noise propeller combine to decrease the submarine's acoustic signature.

The Integrated Sensor Underwater System ISUS 90, from ATLAS Elektronik integrates all sensors, command and control functions on board the submarine. BAE Systems provides the Link 11 tactical data link. The sensor suite of the U214 submarine consists of the sonar systems, an attack periscope and an optronic mast. The submarine's electronic support measures system and global positioning system sensors are also installed on the optronic mast.

The Class 214 submarine will have an increased diving depth and an improvement in AIP performance.

The Integrated Sensor Underwater System – ISUS.

Naval-Technology.com

 

[su-47]

The U-214 lacks the non-magnetic hull of the U-212, thus making it easier for detection. Also, it is more like an improved U-209, rather than the independant U-212.

Its the U-212 thats the real killer. The u-214, though undoubtedly deadly, is downgraded quite a lot.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I was wondering about the non-magnetic hull as well. I am not sure what kind of facilities for fabricating steel the PN has access to within Pakistan. If the subs are only being assembled in Pakistan, then it is quite possible that the hull will be non-magnetic since the Germans will not have to transfer the requisite "top secret" technology for it. If the PN is planning to eventually have a local company fabricate the materials in Pakistan, then thats up in the air.

The Hellenic U-214's apparently do have the "non magnetic hull", but from what I have read the company fabricating it in Greece is owned by the Germans. We'll have to wait until the contract is finalized to find out the details of what is included in the sub, and how much indigenization occurs.

Regardless of whether the Magnetic Stealth System is included or not, the sub is still a devastating weapon system to have.

 

[EagleEyes]

The U-214 lacks the non-magnetic hull of the U-212, thus making it easier for detection. Also, it is more like an improved U-209, rather than the independant U-212.

Its the U-212 thats the real killer. The u-214, though undoubtedly deadly, is downgraded quite a lot.

Non-magnetic hull doesn't even make much difference, and please dont post "improved version of U-209" crap here, unless you can prove it. U-214 is an improvement over the U-212.

Also there is no proof that IF the different material used would be inferior to the material used in the non-magnetic hull.

The Type 214 will have an increased diving depth of over 400m, due to improvements in the pressure hull materials