I wonder if I am dragging this into a off topic debate or you are..
Martial races.. where the **** did I ever mention Martial races.. or race superiority or martians..
Now..
for the answeres to your first paragraph..
its Two tests.. however..not neccecarily of the same missile..but the same engine configuration.
Ignore the Ghauri.. its the North Korean Nodong..
the Shaheen was developed using a baseline engine from the Hatf series..Chinese input from M-11 missiles.
the guidance system on it.. was designed in house by NDC.
The shaheen engine was tested back in 99 in flight.. along with the first guidance system..
Nobody expected the thing to blow the target flag out of the circle.. let alone even make it to the circle.. it did.
Next test verified a newer guidance system.. refined engine..and slight changes in stage size...
At the same time.. low rate production started...
But since I heard this by word of mouth...you wont believe it...okay.np
There is Pakistani input in the design process of the JF-17..with aerodynamics.. electronics.. systems engineers..along with pilots.
half of the Jf-17 design team in 2003 was sourced from Pakistan.
But since they arent a "component" in the strict sense of the word..
You dont have to believe me.. okay..np
well the other side of having word-of-mouth specs is that no one can prove you wrong...
could you please tell me..how super computers are absolutely necessary in MIRV design.. is it impossible without it?
In any case.. Suparco has on occasion outsourced to the Chinese academy for time on their machine...is that worth publishing....on the internet?Isnt it possible for NDC to do the same? no.. so you dont have to believe me..okay.np
super-computers ease the pain by many degrees...can you not run directx11 on pentium 3?
you need simulations for testing missiles and nuke yields...developing them requires good computing power...but then the Chinese have theirs...so there is no further arguing any thing...you harp on the Chinese capacity...the only factor that remains is their willingness to share it all...definitely not to be found on the internet...and nobody would share their copy of "for-eyes-only" secret tell-all files right?
the solid state auto loader system for the Al-khalid..was designed by my company.. The systems integration..was done in house and by a private company outsourced to by HIT and a University group.
But that's ok.. Its not on the internet.. you dont have to believe me.
if the internet is to believed...then it is of a Chinese origin...but I take your word for it...
We cant do anything on our own.. since its not on the internet.. scanned or in article form otherwise.. you dont have to believe a thing.
Santro...
the merits and demerits of discussing top-secret military tech and it's authenticity is always semi-dubious over forums like this...
people talk about half-baked information readily available from reliable and semi-reliable sources on the net...decide on their authenticity or negotiate and bargain about the true standing of such and such and discuss them...if you have knowledge of a system...you can use the specs to compare your to ours...and not necessarily post pics of you posing with some secret govt doc you were not supposed to know existed...
my believing $h!t is not the point here...this thread's purpose is to compare them systems...now we posted some good info on our system's architecture...your lot dismissed it outright claiming
a)they know in-depth about our systems and their incapacity...(you somewhere talked about how being a Pakistani you are bound to know a tad more about your systems than us...right...I hope this handicap doesn't extend to the netherworld...)
b)the Pakistani systems are better...about which there is not an iota of technical info available on the information superhighway...
so after a) and b) being raised here...I in all humility am asking you to show me the money on this...so if it is all about my believing something and your not caring to help me with that...then the purpose of this thread is lost on this...
for you appear to be saying..."we have it...don't believe it??f.o!"
Now..
How do you brandish a C4I system?
Now.. lets assume.. that the pretty scans I just saw are of an operational system.. in that case.. you just gave your enemies the idea that you are pulling ahead.. they panic..they push more into their programs.. they put more money into competing with you here.. or in another weapon system..
You find out.. you feel set back.. you spend more.. the other guy.. who cannot keep up on this linear approach.. decided to upgrade his non-conventional arsenal.. do you see the pattern here..its called an arms race..we have been at it... for over...lets see.. 65 years or so??
Would you rather slow it down.. or speed it up..
Is it better to be satisfied with being better by the knowledge of having extremely high tech systems.. or by knowing all of that.. and knowing that the other guy is now more insecure because of it and is making more nukes??
ok...where do I begin???
C4I or logistics support and information exchange is not just a weapon it is the whole machinery....!
The C4I system of a country is specific to it's needs and can not be copied...to another model.it's not a tank or an a/c that can be wielded by most...
your C4I system if sufficiently efficient would let your enemies know that in case of war...your battle-comms would never go down and provide you with a swift edge...it's not a weapon that can be downed...cus we are not asknig the coordinates of your comms centres...
We would want you to believe that our comms lines would be uncluttered and fast...and the flow of info would bedazzle you and your forces...
we would not want you to believe that the su-30s from the lonewala base would be the first ones to attack sialkot...that is giving away military secrets...and suicidal...
so it is not at all about giving the enemies an idea of our war plans or blue-prints..or whadeva...it is just letting them know that we have efficiency running in our fiber-optical veins...it does instill fear...a fear more practical than mutually assured destruction of a thermonuke pis$ fight...
as far as the arms race is concerned...Deckin was spot-on in his post..
To answer your second last paragraph..
Have you ever heard of Operational security?.. its not only nations that practice it.. Apple..Microsoft.. all do it in some form.
Do you know everything there is to know about the F-22.. as you say the Americans publish everything?
if you start publishing everything...nobody would take a word of it.
the C4I system in our context is one of the most vast systems an army operates...it will go beyond the scope...but we can discuss tiny little specs like the backbone media...its rough tx rate...how are individual systems linked...is it laser tx or radio tx that works for individual systems...most countries do provide these details...while thye might not give you their jamming frequencies...they give you enough to let you know that it is potent.
But if I know something.. whether its within my organization.. or by indirect reference.. should I blurt it all out..maybe.. or should I exercise caution. Just in case.
And that goes not just for me..
there are other members who are privy to info.. some say it openly...its their judgment call.. they know better. If I feel comfortable sharing a certain detail.. Ill do it...if not..you are more than welcome to be a skeptic.
There are other more knowledgeable members in their respective fields who post liberally..and with considerable detail.. but Whatever they post.. is everything that is freely available as collectible information on the internet. If tomorrow I find that okay.. look...there is that new purchase I heard about talking to my colleague.. on that website.. hey..lets talk about it.
But if I am having a chat with a senior in my organization..and he mentions something but says please do not mention it to anybody yet..I feel it best not to...it may something very trivial.. no james bond stuff.. but I can exercise the right to abstain from talking about it.
Should steve jobs have revealed everything about the iphone 4 after that prototype was lost and found?.. what if the iphone was not up to the hype..what if it spurred nokia to make a better competitor after knowing what it would be facing?
you are being paranoid...I have already written about how the C4I system's brandishing would give Pakistan the ability to make it's enemy believe in it's efficiency...Pakistan seeks efficiency...number would never do it for you...and the other thing being...your C4I system's hardware component would am sure have nothing unheard of...at best it can have short-distance laser comms...or microwave comms for long distances...what type of signal processing you utilize is your concern...but it would not be like the case with apple and nokia...companies that research and come-out with new ground-breaking technologies...even the most upgraded system with India and Pakistan would not be a world-beater...at least for the time being...
Now..for the record..I dont state ANYwhere that the IAF C4I is obsolete.. useless etc...please point out the post where I did do that.
In my opinion all that data published on wikipedia is on operational systems which are in the process of having their replacement or upgrade being developed..which DRDO has possibly not even disclosed.
you and this other Pakistani guy were back-slapping each other about how inferior our system is to yours...the details of which can not be disclosed...seemed senseless...
My contention is however.. with your countrymen.. who refuse to believe that we can keep up with you.. or at least make comparable..even if not better systems..
The only reason I am quoting you again and again and not the other guy is because...you are more logical than most of our lot and of a good temperament...and I expect you to have a good reason with proper backing to form a particular notion.
You of all are familiar with me from the start..
You have seen my posts at the beginning and their tone..
and now..
Wonder what caused the change..?
I would just say that you should not let the insane bring you down...
most of the clowns you interact with come blinded by patriotism.