PAF & Rafale Story Will Not Go Away !

[Raider 21]

Interesting. Iam told by people who helped design the French aviation facilities in Abu Dhabi and then subsequently the F16 facilities that the M2K5s were being driven by Pak drivers unlike the Bl. 60s where no unrelated person could even get near the planes much less ride them.
A

Same case goes for the M2k-5s at Qatar. No PAF pilot has been type rated to fly the jet over there. I know a bunch who are posted at Qatar.

Cheers!!!

 

[Windjammer]

Same case goes for the M2k-5s at Qatar. No PAF pilot has been type rated to fly the jet over there. I know a bunch who are posted at Qatar.

Cheers!!!

You misread @araz , ''all Abu Dhabi's Mirage 2000-5 were managed by the PAF pilots.''
And i also know that as a fact.

 

[Raider 21]

You misread @araz , ''all Abu Dhabi's Mirage 2000-5 were managed by the PAF pilots.''
And i also know that as a fact.

And I repeat what I quote from ex-PAF pilots who have been working with UAEAF for 23+ years, no PAF pilots on deputation or ex-PAF pilot has flown Mirage 2000-5s nor the latest variants that followed....they are not allowed to fly them period.

 

[SQ8]

And I repeat what I quote from ex-PAF pilots who have been working with UAEAF for 23+ years, no PAF pilots on deputation or ex-PAF pilot has flown Mirage 2000-5s nor the latest variants that followed....they are not allowed to fly them period.

Specific requests from mfg or our neighbor?

 

[Raider 21]

Specific requests from mfg or our neighbor?

It has been like that from the beginning. It does not only apply to PAF. Applies to a lot of others too. Nope, no requests from the noisy neighbours.

And by that I'll give you an example. No Peruvian and Egyptian Mirage 2000 pilots were allowed to fly the Mk2-9s when they applied.

 

[Windjammer]

Specific requests from mfg or our neighbor?

Neither, just being ignorant.
Some sources are not happy with me disclosing and posting all here, however i'm still trying to get hold of certain related material.

 

[Flight of falcon]

And I repeat what I quote from ex-PAF pilots who have been working with UAEAF for 23+ years, no PAF pilots on deputation or ex-PAF pilot has flown Mirage 2000-5s nor the latest variants that followed....they are not allowed to fly them period.

Totally incorrect........
Wrong wrong wrong

 

[Windjammer]

Uae air force 2016 united arab emirates air force.

Personnel and training

The UAEAF consists of about 4,000 personnel.

In the 1970s and 80s, the UAEAF was instructed by Pakistan Air Force pilots on Dassault Mirage IIIs, the backbone of the UAEAF at the time. Even today, many of the personnel are ex-Pakistan Air Force officers and technicians. Most of the flying instructors at Al Ain are from Pakistan, training pilots using Grob G 115, Pilatus PC-7, Aermacchi MB-339, and BAE Hawk 63 aircraft. A few officers of No. 12 Squadron (Hawk 102) at Al Minhad Air Base, are also from the Pakistan Air Force. Some of these officers are on deputation (active service), but most are on civilian contracts with the Air Force Headquarters in Abu Dhabi. Numerous officers of other nationalities have also trained UAE pilots, among them Pakistanis, Moroccans, Canadians, Jordanians, and South Africans.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Uae air force 2016 united arab emirates air force.

Personnel and training

The UAEAF consists of about 4,000 personnel.

In the 1970s and 80s, the UAEAF was instructed by Pakistan Air Force pilots on Dassault Mirage IIIs, the backbone of the UAEAF at the time. Even today, many of the personnel are ex-Pakistan Air Force officers and technicians. Most of the flying instructors at Al Ain are from Pakistan, training pilots using Grob G 115, Pilatus PC-7, Aermacchi MB-339, and BAE Hawk 63 aircraft. A few officers of No. 12 Squadron (Hawk 102) at Al Minhad Air Base, are also from the Pakistan Air Force. Some of these officers are on deputation (active service), but most are on civilian contracts with the Air Force Headquarters in Abu Dhabi. Numerous officers of other nationalities have also trained UAE pilots, among them Pakistanis, Moroccans, Canadians, Jordanians, and South Africans.

Sounds like just IP on basic and advanced trainers only, not fighter jets in frontline service. And even then, most are retired, ex-PAF pilots, so not very impactful for PAF.
Again, I think the best way to learn to fight against upgraded Mirages and Rafales would be through exercises such as the ones we hold with Turkey and China.

 

[Windjammer]

Sounds like just IP on basic and advanced trainers only, not fighter jets in frontline service. And even then, most are retired, ex-PAF pilots, so not very impactful for PAF.
Again, I think the best way to learn to fight against upgraded Mirages and Rafales would be through exercises such as the ones we hold with Turkey and China.

I'm sure some one like W/C Faisal Mumtaz will burst a few bubbles.

 

[GriffinsRule]

I'm sure some one like W/C Faisal Mumtaz will burst a few bubbles.

Way I think about it this, PAF train its pilots in DACT against other platforms to learn the strengths and weaknesses of their own platform as well as the opposing one, and develop tactics accordingly. There is no substitute for that. Otherwise exchange pilots would be it and professional air forces would not be spending money doing exercises or having various aggressor squadrons etc. I am sure there might be trickling of information from ex-PAF pilots or some IPs that go on deputations, but how useful would that be to hundreds of JF-17 drivers?

As an example, USAF trained with German Migs to give its pilots first hand experience in flying against Soviet birds. They even acquired Migs and Sukhois through clandestine means or others so they would get first hand experience flying against those birds. This is in addition to sending pilots to fly the aircraft itself. If we have these close allies flying future top of the line Indian jets, we need to engage and learn to fight against that threat utilizing every option.

 

[N.Siddiqui]

If Pakistani pilots trained on Rafale, then its weapons system has already been compromised

This would be a serious violation of the India-France secrecy pact, whether by intent or by default remains to be seen.

ABHIJIT IYER-MITRA 11 April, 2019 4:45 pm IST

A Rafale fighter aircraft | Pascal Le Segretain/Getty Images

The revelation that Pakistani pilots reportedly trained on Qatar’s Rafale fighter jets with a configuration similar to our own represents a major security breach, in that it significantly compromises a weapons system even before it has entered service with the Indian Air Force, if proven true.

The question is, what is the nature of the breach, the possible damage, the legal implications and how is it different from other such cases (for example, both China and India operate the Sukhoi Su-30, and both Israel and Egypt operate the F-16).

The Qatari Rafales share several similarities with the Indian aircraft, notably the RBE 2 active radar, the Spectra electronic warfare (EW) system, and the vaunted long-range Meteor air-to-air and SCALP ground attack missiles. Now, while pilots are not taught the complete physics of jamming that the Spectra system would use, trained pilots would know what modes to use and how. This would allow the pilot to extrapolate the full range of the jet’s passive and active capabilities. Given the state of ongoing tension between Qatar and its neighbours, these Pakistani pilots will also possibly have the opportunity to size up the Rafale against the F-16 of the UAE’s air force. Tellingly, this F-16 versus Rafale combo is exactly the combat scenario on the India-Pakistan front as well. So, while the EW systems won’t be compromised, the Rafale’s capabilities will become known to the Pakistan Air Force.

Also read: IAF wants fresh info from France as concern rises over reports of Pakistani pilots’ Rafale training

The radar, however, is a different story altogether, and it is safe to say that it now stands almost entirely compromised, not in that it can be jammed, but rather in what it can do. Any training will explore the maximum possible capacities of all systems including radars. This would include the maximum range, the resolution, the nature and calibre of information and data sharing between Rafales, the tactical tricks it uses in the radar spectrum and its strengths and weaknesses. They will also learn what the maximum flight covers, and the tracking and detection capabilities of a whole host of mated missiles such as the Meteor, SCALP and Mica as well as the tricks associated with their launch.

For example, the Rafale’s RBE 2 radar does not have a two-way link with the Meteor (that is to say, the Rafale can feed information to the missile, but the missile cannot feed information back to the plane). This means that even after firing the missile, the Rafale jet has to keep flying and track the target till the much smaller radar on the missile’s nose detects the target. Knowledge of the time and distance gap between how far the Rafale has to follow the Meteor before it can break off the attack and allow the missile to take over is critical information that could help evolve a set of viable tactics to counter the Meteor-Rafale combination.

Given that India’s purchase of the Rafale was to overcome the shortcomings of the Sukhoi, specifically the range required to reach the Chinese Eastern Seaboard, it is safe to assume that the range of the Rafale, in all possible configurations, is now known to the Pakistanis who will duly pass it on to the Chinese.

https://theprint.in/opinion/if-paki...s-system-has-already-been-compromised/220180/

 

[N.Siddiqui]

PAF pilots flew Rafale before IAF so it knows its weaknesses: India’s Defense Dreams Shatter

Recent reports reveal that pilots of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) were given access to the French Dassault Rafale medium weight multirole fighter, and were trained to operate these fighter jets in France.



India has garnered much attention for its acquisition of these fighter aircrafts, and the acquisition engulfed Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s BJP government in a mega-corruption scandal associated with the exuberant expenses paid by the Indian exchequer to undertake this deal.

Indian Air Defense Shattered
India’s primary reason to acquire the Rafale was to counter the impregnable air defense of Pakistan, which had become a pressing concern for India in the aftermath of the swift defeat the PAF fighter pilots handed to the Indian Air Force pilots who ventured into Pakistani airspace during 27th February’s “Operation Swift Retort”.

Now that the Pakistani fighter pilots have operated India’s widely publicized Rafale, Pakistan is fully aware of the exact specifications of the aircraft, launching a terrible blow to India’s designs of having a competitive edge in air warfare.




It is important to note that the Pakistan Air Force has no designs to acquire and operate the French Rafale. Instead, it has set its sights on the upcoming JF-17 Block 3 link and stealth fighters manufactured under the Project AZM in a bid to innovate its fleet of fighter aircrafts.

Pakistan fighter pilots, under a program of the Qatari Air Force, were sent to France to acquire training on the Rafale aircrafts. The Qatari Armed Forces have been dependent on recruits from Pakistan to operate its acquired aircrafts and other hardware since the 1970s.

During the 1991 Gulf War, personnel of the Pakistan Army assisted Qatar in the battle against the Iraqi forces and even operated Qatari battle tanks to engage on behalf of the Gulf state.

This has allowed Pakistan’s air defense to familiarize itself with the specifications and limitations of the Rafale design, alongside understanding its weapon systems.

The small population of Qatar and its elevated lifestyle standards has rendered the Gulf state unable to recruit its own citizens to serve in the armed forces and air force, and much like its neighbor, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, it is heavily dependent on Pakistan’s military assistance.

Pakistan’s Familiarity with Rafale Specifications
The Pakistani fighter pilots who underwent training on the Rafale aircrafts in France have flown the aircraft before the first squadron of the Indian Air Force got a chance to fly its new acquisition. This has allowed Pakistan’s air defense to familiarize itself with the specifications and limitations of the Rafale design, alongside understanding its weapon systems.

This will allow PAF’s assets, including the JF-17 fighter jets equipped with PL-12 and the HQ-16 air defense batteries a superiority in avoiding attacks launched from the French manufactured Rafale, alongside effectively neutralizing these aircrafts.

https://www.globalvillagespace.com/...its-weaknesses-indias-defense-dreams-shatter/

 

[N.Siddiqui]

Should these reports turn out to be true, Pakistan would in all likelihood know what the Rafale can see, what it cannot, how the Rafale hides, what tricks it can use in combat, how far its missiles fly, and how it manoeuvres to avoid incoming missiles. More importantly, Pakistan would know what Rafale pilots are instructed not to do. This is particularly potent because using these tactics, they can now force the Rafale into situations where Indian pilots are at a disadvantage. To sum up, the most dangerous aspect of this is not the fact that specific electronic frequencies are compromised (they aren’t), but rather the knowledge of how the Rafale and its pilot see, evade, think and fight.

At face value, the initial French denial is weak given that news sources seem to have reported on this intermittently since 2016 at least. This, if proven, would be a serious violation of the India-France secrecy pact, whether by intent or by default remains to be seen. Irrespective of that, I would be most glad if proven wrong.

https://eurasiantimes.com/did-pakistani-pilots-really-train-on-qatars-rafale-fighter-jets/

 

[Philip the Arab]

Lol, Qatar needs to get some pilots.