PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion

[lcloo]

They reason they are testing new seats is because they have installed Martin Baker seats. Even the old PAF F6s had MB seats.

Not testing ejection seats. Training the ground crew on maitenance of Chinese ejection seats.

AVIC #China recently completed “intensive” training programs for the ejection seat and training on 7 other systems for the ground crew of the J-10C, for the #Pakistan Air Force in #Chengdu.

 

[Trango Towers]

Pakistan installed the Martin-Baker seats becuase of bad experiences with the Chinsese seats at the time. If I recall correctly someone from PAF had commented that the most expensive part of the F-6 was the ejection seat since the Chinese handed over the F-6s to PAF, virtually for free

Martin Baker are the authority on ejection seats although I don't know why Pakistan doesn't make these.

 

[tphuang]

On the topic of why JF-17 engine choice vs J-10. Pakistan has a long established maintenance process for RD-93s. It really would be costly and annoying for PAF to deviate from that. WS-13/21 is also a new engine that's just being used on a few UAVs and FC-31 prototypes. I can completely understand PAF looking at it as not worth the risk or the cost. The bigger question is why does PAF find RD-93MA to be not satisfactory? Is Klimov incapable of improving on a 40 year old design? That would fit the long pattern of Russians over-promoting something and not being able to deliver on time. It would also make sense given how little investment Russia has put into Mig-29/RD-33 series in the past 30 years.

Since PAF does not have any similar attachment for AL-31FN, it really doesn't make sense for PAF to deal with the additional hassle of Russian export licenses or possibly delivery issues with Salyut. China's ability to produce everything on J-10C internally is a major factor on why it can deliver this many J-10Cs so soon. Also, keep in mind that WS-10 is now in service with J-20, J-10C, J-11B and J-16. It should be quite reliable by this point. Its production levels are also quite good. In fact, they've already been able to upgrade it to 142kN thrust with WS-10C. That's as good as any Russian engine in production. That should tell you the current Chinese engine makers have more experience with developing new engines and upgrading existing engines than Russian ons. I would be surprised if WS-15 joins service later than Izdeliye 30.

For the same reason that US does not export F-22, China is unlikely to ever export J-20. The most realistic path for PAF is to work with CAC to develop a more multi-role version of J-10 that can conduct that J-10Cs are currently not asked to do. Another path is for PAF to work with PLAAF and CAC to develop a more stealthy version of J-10 that both air forces would have use for.

 

[serenity]

On the topic of why JF-17 engine choice vs J-10. Pakistan has a long established maintenance process for RD-93s. It really would be costly and annoying for PAF to deviate from that. WS-13/21 is also a new engine that's just being used on a few UAVs and FC-31 prototypes. I can completely understand PAF looking at it as not worth the risk or the cost. The bigger question is why does PAF find RD-93MA to be not satisfactory? Is Klimov incapable of improving on a 40 year old design? That would fit the long pattern of Russians over-promoting something and not being able to deliver on time. It would also make sense given how little investment Russia has put into Mig-29/RD-33 series in the past 30 years.

Since PAF does not have any similar attachment for AL-31FN, it really doesn't make sense for PAF to deal with the additional hassle of Russian export licenses or possibly delivery issues with Salyut. China's ability to produce everything on J-10C internally is a major factor on why it can deliver this many J-10Cs so soon. Also, keep in mind that WS-10 is now in service with J-20, J-10C, J-11B and J-16. It should be quite reliable by this point. Its production levels are also quite good. In fact, they've already been able to upgrade it to 142kN thrust with WS-10C. That's as good as any Russian engine in production. That should tell you the current Chinese engine makers have more experience with developing new engines and upgrading existing engines than Russian ons. I would be surprised if WS-15 joins service later than Izdeliye 30.

For the same reason that US does not export F-22, China is unlikely to ever export J-20. The most realistic path for PAF is to work with CAC to develop a more multi-role version of J-10 that can conduct that J-10Cs are currently not asked to do. Another path is for PAF to work with PLAAF and CAC to develop a more stealthy version of J-10 that both air forces would have use for.

Pakistan working with CAC on something new even if based on J-10 is unlikely. It will cost Pakistan money. Even buying a few dozen J-10C at the same price PLAAF buys is still a lot of money. Developing something new just for PAF only means Pakistan shoulders the entire cost of such programs and then they will be buying it although at no real profit for CAC except the cost of overhead and all development expenses. That is simply not realistic.

All these sorts of programs cost so much money really only five countries in the world can afford to develop so many fighter programs and buy those fighters. China, USA, France, UK, Russia, and Sweden sort of at least in the past. Japan can do one project with available budget. Korea is doing well but partnered with USA for KFX project. India says they will do AMCA and India is a huge country and barely can do one program at a time.

Whatever Pakistan wants to develop out of some past CAC ideas like the other members mentioned would either require China to pay much of the bill or eat into Pakistan's funding for other things. Pakistan is a nuclear power. It's aim shouldn't be to create an equal counter force to India but to be able to make it too expensive for India to do anything conventionally damaging with losing sovereignty of Pakistan which doesn't count Kashmir. If it comes to Pakistan's own sovereignty at threat due to conventional war, Pakistan can resort to nuclear. That means its conventional forces should just aim to keep up slightly with India but not to equal it. That will bankrupt Pakistan and ensure its forever poverty.

By partnering up together, both countries can try to maximize Pakistan's effectiveness in thwarting any Indian aggression on smaller scale and on larger scale, India will not dare as long as Pakistan has almost an equal nuclear force to India.

That is enough. The rest for future fighter plans should look at 5th generation and beyond. If you have limited funds to spend, it is not smart to have block 3 JF-17, J-10C even if just 36 units or 20 something, and also some other 4.5 generation CAC project idea that requires deep investment and time for full development, then also AZM program and possibly merging AZM with other programs outside Pakistan or if not, then two separate 5th generations!? no way. Pakistan is sounding like it is Switzerland but 10 times the size? Come on even rich European countries barely buy or try and do one fighter project.

J-10C is to counter Rafale and be PAF's modern medium fighter because block 52 F-16 is not effective in this era with no phased radar and same 2000s missile as its absolute best one. If there is some CAC project that was shelved due to J-20 and other priorities from PLAAF which won't buy 2 or 3 separate fighter types of 4th generation, Pakistan doesn't have the money to develop and buy it fully and if it does have the money, it really shouldn't be wasting it in that way.

 

[Deino]

And Mrs sometime gets happy, Mastan has become the only Mogambo of PDF that never gets happy.

Oh, as it seems he is always quite happy if he can rant against a certain stupid German. As such I play my role ...

 

[Deino]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1482306819326296069

Not sure if this has been posted before, supposedly a new J-10C with Al-31F! Might be a PAF bird!!

It's fake ... it is in fact an early production J-10C posted on 13. November 2017 and as uch surely has an AL-31FN.

 

[Deino]

People needs to understand that PAF is regarded as a top class fighting force highly disciplined and at par with any modern force out there despite of limited resources/options. In no way, any one should have a doubt on this. Even though, I didn't acknowledged neither claimed anything on AL-31F but one has to keep in mind that PAF is not going to compromise. That being said, whether AL-31F or WS-10; the top notch will be chosen by blue boys. IF J-10CP is here, it is going to be the spear head for PAF and in that area, there is no other option but to get the best out of it. I will hold down myself till the birds lands. We will then discuss as how, when it happened---- who was in China since when and in-fact how many of us (almost 6 members) knew from early 2019 or even before that.

I acknowledge & agree what @SQ8 used to say that any information which is for personal delight, shouldn't come to the internet unless Source say so. Secondly, any responsible person having information on any such topic, wouldn't compromise the OPSEC for few brownie points. Lastly, we all need to act responsibly. Either the J-10 or as I used to say, not only J-10 but a lot coming; means it is a huge responsibility to keep things close to your chest until the time comes.

Getting back to the topic; AL-31F has its own advantages and PAF sees that close coordination with big wigs for the future of Pakistan Defence Industries. A lot has been settled and clarified between Pakistan-Russia and I wouldn't shy to accept that thanks to China for playing a bigger role in this regard. This is same as like how Pakistan played a bigger role to clear the path for Chinese reaching the Gulf Defence Industry.

Currently, whatever being said on internet and as revealed by officials through different channels; is merely the tip of iceberg. Having said that, if even 40% of the desired modernization is revealed; I bet people will remain in shock for at-least couple of weeks if not a month.

Have you ever seen me opposing particular platform or even trying to say that so & so person is making such a stupid claim that if J-15 or J-16 or any Flanker is coming? I bet you wouldn't find me seriously doing so. You know why? I do not look at merely a platform or an opinion of someone wishing PAF to have a flanker. What interests me, is the case of seeing far beyond just a platform or an equipment. I am more interested into things impacting Country's Defence in long future.

I believe that any professional force like PAF just do not buy an equipment to live through the day and survive for tomorrow. You might not believe but PAF plans for 30+ years to the least if anything is procured or inducted into the active operations. By that logic & tactics; one can easily understand that which tech might get interest of PAF and how come the same can benefit Defence of the Country by any means or different ways. While pointing to something being interested to PAF; just pay close attention to the benefits and future lies ahead in-form of that particular platform/equipment, people will get the idea as how PAF or PN or PA is planning. How beneficial it is and how this is going to support in very long run.

If we are talking about AL-31F engine with J-10C for PAF; I wouldn't deny that plainly rather be looking at AZM becoming reality, an NGF becomes the reality and taking shape, a defence industry of Pakistan moving forward and all these factors will be combined with the help of Friends indeed. PAF may not be bringing the AL-31F or WS-10 merely for the sake of it. Trust me. It has more to do with future tech, development and progress being made to meet with modern warfare challenges. I have no doubt that Russia, China & Turkiye are already helping in different areas and the future path has been set.

Unfortunately, public denial is because of an ill painted picture of Pakistan. Don't take me wrong (everyone) but not everyone has to stomach to digest what PAF, PN or PA has been up-to. Unfortunately, most of us never tried to look at the right side of the picture but this is us keep asking for everything on platter and being spoon fed. I am not denying the fact of OpSec and secrecy level being maintained by Pakistan or China as everyone does so but did everyone belittle the particular nation or undermine them as if their defence capability is nothing at par in modern times. Surprisingly, no one ever could get the idea as how Pakistan has been the center of power struggle in the region and plays a major role to set rules. No one ever could look at things that Pakistan did. It is a dilemma but a reality since majority believes in the narrative being pushed by leading or major media outlets. There is a less of interest by the people to dig deeper and look at the things as they are instead of how they tell us to believe.

The reason as of the same proven fact that PAF do not race into quantity with the rival but always comes ahead of quality and delivering the result. This is all about to control the end game.

In fact since you mentioned this, it is IMO the only viable option for AL-31FN-powered J-10C: To get the Russians on board, to let them get a piece of that cake in order to get other guarantees and concessions for - and now Deino has a crazy idea - lets spin the mind even more. This more could THEN indeed be a Russian agreement to allow China to sell its Flanker series under the condition that they are Russian powered.

I know I always refused any China-Flanker sale to anyone due to the fact that China in my opinion never will break at least this obligation from the original contract ... but if there would be an agreement with Russia, so why not!?

Please don't go out and tell now, Deino reverted his mind and thinks Pakistan will get J-15/J-16, I'm still convinced this is highly unlikely ... but under these terms I can imagine it could be an option.

 

[Riz]

Wichli khabar : J-10cp along with all weapons systems ready to land in Pakistan next month inshallah

 

[Bossman]

Martin Baker are the authority on ejection seats although I don't know why Pakistan doesn't make these.

Because only Martin Baker makes them

 

[Trango Towers]

Because only Martin Baker makes them

What kind of reply is that.

So no one should make ejections seats beacuase MB makes them

 

[Vapnope]

February is one important month..

 

[CodeforFood]

It's fake ... it is in fact an early production J-10C posted on 13. November 2017 and as uch surely has an AL-31FN.

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My thought is that if we are indeed getting russian engines on J10C, then they may be older used J10C and that will also explain how we can foot the bill. I don't think for our need the higher thrust is the only deciding factor from performance perspective.

 

[Bossman]

What kind of reply is that.

So no one should make ejections seats beacuase MB makes them

You said why Pakistan doesn’t make MB ejection seats, I said because only MB makes them.

 

[Bossman]

My thought is that if we are indeed getting russian engines on J10C, then they may be older used J10C and that will also explain how we can foot the bill. I don't think for our need the higher thrust is the only deciding factor from performance perspective.

Everything is based on assumptions and speculation so I will add mine. Also don’t focus on the cost issue too much, China and Pakistan have strategic relationships and cost is not the primary concern.

1) It is possible the PAF might not be comfortable with a relatively new Chinese engine and wants something more dependable with a history. Chinese might also have a capacity issue because they just mastered high end jet engine technology.

2) Secondly, PAF could be a taking a longer-term perspective by engaging with the Russians and/or maybe it was a Russian pre-condition for PAF to buy AL31 based J-10s for future business. Putin has given Pakistan a blank check for certain defense purchases but I think both sides are still cautious how to engage each other.

3) In the medium term PAF might be interested in SU35 with AL41 engines so makes a lot of sense to have something compatible now.

4) PAF will require an engine for its future 5th generation aircraft under project Azm, as a JV or off-the-shelf. In any case the only engines available to PAF will be Chinese or Russian with Russian being a better technical solution. Thus it makes a lot of sense to start developing a longer term relationship with the Russians. An engine in the class of AL41 will be needed for super cruise. RD33/93 will not cut it.

In any case the speculations should be over in a few months.

 

[baqai]

bhai, look at past acquisitions of aircraft by PAF from China and ask yourself, did we took the product right off the shelf or we asked (demanded) heavy customizations to it? if we did it with A-5, F-6, F-7 than J-10 is not an exception, PAF will not get a half backed cookie and anything including the engine would be on the table when it comes to customization