PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion

[Mav3rick]

We can't buy a thing unless we get them on loan installments. So thanks to China who is now virtually funding our military's acquisition programs through loans. We aren't an industrialized country so our imports would grow regardless of which categories you analyze. Loans+more interest = deadly taxes and inflation resulting into more poverty and lesser buying power for general public.

China is NO US! Whatever China gives, it takes back with interest (compound); there is a reason it is being equated to the current era's East India Company. What they did to Sri Lanka with the Port is just a prime example.

Why we are continuously digging this debt trap (or rather debt grave) is beyond me. Our Nuclear Weapons are sufficient deterrence against any loss of Land to India (or any other country). We simply cannot match India's purchasing power (until our economy is just as strong) and the sooner we recognize it the better.

 

[serenity]

That's news to me, maybe I haven't read about J10c properly. Quick google search tells me that J10c produces 123/135 KN of thrust as compared to 150 KN in Rafale. Since J10c specifications are opaque and different places post different values, hard to find a reliable figure.
j-10 - wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And if they use Russian engine instead of Chinese, then it will be even lesser.

He is wrong. Two M88 produce more afterburner thrust than one WS-10B whether the WS-10B produces 135KN or 145KN. AL-31FN series produce even less.

For maximum military thrust, which is without afterburner, we do not know but it's fairly likely that two M88 has higher military thrust than WS-10B's military thrust.

But M88 is over half the weight of WS-10B most likely so two M88's penalty is at least in slightly more weight but compensated with more thrust. The Rafale is also slightly larger than J-10 overall.

 

[Deino]

In addition to local assembly of AESA, J10 comes with AL-31 ToT. We are looking towards a greater russian input in our NGFA program.

Sorry, but this makes no sense and I would love to see some prove for this even if IO'm sure you won't provide any. We haven't seen any J-10C since late 2019 rolling of the production line at CAC with AL-31FN engines and so, the PAF is either getting earlier batches of PLAAf birds, or they are still not in production.

Even more this "we will get more ToT is IMO fake ... but let's wait and see. By all i know, this won't happen.

Good if true, but that means no TVC in our jets yet!

Why again and as it seems you didn't read ANY of those replies from several members: TVC was never on the agenda for these J-10Cs since NO operational J-10C uses TVC.

 

[MH.Yang]

PLAAF hate any jet with low MAX-SPEED,they will not accept JF-17 unless they have no chioce.

Yes, once all PLAAF planes were as long as brooms.

But the speed of J10A can reach 2M, the J10C shortened the fuselage, resulting in a speed drop to 1.8M, and significantly increased mobility at subsonic speeds and high angles of attack. This indicates that the requirements of PLAAF have changed.

 

[Riz]

What reliable source? A posters word? A gug called khafee was worshipped here as the word and he promised you f16 v70 ....his word was gospel. Where is he?

This news is bs until there is evidence

Many done deals has been canceled in the past , this is a military forum here many have relatives friends working in different departments of military, so obviously many had access to these secret deals which get leaked to us , F-16V deal was one of them

 

[Trango Towers]

Many done deals has been canceled in the past , this is a military forum here many have relatives friends working in different departments of military, so obviously many had access to these secret deals which get leaked to us , F-16V deal was one of them

There was no f16 v70 deal. Not 1 spread of evidence to support your claim.
I can claim my uncle is bajwa.... this is the internet...you can be Ik or modi. Doesn't mean what you say is correct.

Either say what the reliable source is or just let it be....this supporting of rumours is bs

 

[Riz]

There was no f16 v70 deal. Not 1 spread of evidence to support your claim.
I can claim my uncle is bajwa.... this is the internet...you can be Ik or modi. Doesn't mean what you say is correct.

Either say what the reliable source is or just let it be....this supporting of rumours is bs

Acha bhai ghusa to na karo

 

[Trango Towers]

Acha bhai ghusa to na karo

I an not at angry my brother. But facts are facts. No proof not point talking

 

[The Terminator]

From what I heard, PAF's version may turn out slightly limited due to budgetary issues (not because PLAAF is limiting export of any technology on there).

Pakistan military historically has always procured the best possible solution available at the time from China or more often even further refined that platform to better suite their needs. How do you think that PAF would make compromises while acquiring a whole new platform from China, when they would have to face the best of east (S 400 + SU 30MKI) and west (Rafale) platforms at disposal to their prime adversary. I highly doubt that PAF would make those cheap compromises (downgrades) to J-10 acquisition, as they already have smaller but equally fierce brother of J-10, the JF-17 thunder block 3 which is capable of holding on its own against the contemporary threats.

So you are suggesting that PAF going to commit Billions of precious $$$ acquiring an entirely new platform, establishing it's logistics, training etc. just to get a downgraded J-10 in order to cut corners of merely a few million bucks! I can't believe this. This scenario could only happen if China forcefully thrusted J-10 deal upon Pakistan just in order to unlock newly acquired cutting edge tech for their thunder upgrades, so in that case PAF would buy a couple of dozen of J-10 husks and place them in in reserves or secondary roles, which itself (this scenario) is highly unlikely.

 

[luciferdd]

As per news break by @messiach that PAF J10 will have Al31 engine with ToT

This is a big news, means PAF trust on Chinese engine is not yet achieved..

Secondly if AL31 is coming with ToT them RD93 will be also part of package as well.

Third point then there is higher chances that AZM or NGFA 5th gen will have Russian engine possibly AL 41

PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion

But that‘s for the WS-10C, the updated version used by the J-20A. In contrast to the C-model, the J-10C uses the less powerful standard WS-10B, which is supposed to deliver a thrust of 132kn. No worries bro it is hard to find anything. Yes bro always hard to find official sources in China...

defence.pk

Obviously it's a fake news,PAF only need 36~40 high thrust engines in a short term and these engines can't be somethings with TOT(the cost will be real high).

 

[Aesterix]

@messiach

Isn't the j10c fitted with a WS-10B Taihang turbofan engine ?

Why would we get AL31 TOT?

With respect you make a statement and then dissappear without providing any proof.

Thats what I was thinking. PAF initial term was that only when China can fit the jet with a reliable Chinese engine, only then PAF will buy it.
The clause was placed by one of the best defence visionaries Pakistan ever had , General Musharraf.

 

[araz]

In addition to local assembly of AESA, J10 comes with AL-31 ToT. We are looking towards a greater russian input in our NGFA program.

Madam.
Aap ne to billion ki dum main patakha baand ke chor diya hai. This is huge news.

Good if true, but that means no TVC in our jets yet!

I dont think we will be wanting that at all. A lot of weight for very little gain against HOBS. I could be wrong but this is my opinion.
A

 

[m52k85]

@CriticalThought
What you posted in the other thread kept me thinking of what if I am wrong based on whatever limited information + knowledge I have.

So lets put it through the simulation: @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD in case you are interested

A flight of 4 J-10Cs with PL-15s and a flight of 4 Rafale F3Rs with Meteors.
In total the J-10Cs carry 16 PL-15s and 8 PL-10s along with KG-300 ECM pods while the Rafale's 16 Meteors and 8 MICA EMs along with 8 MICA IRs as well(SPECTRA BUILT IN)
Max Range of PL-15 is simulated at 92nm while the Meteor is at 75nm.

Both located at 36000ft, facing each other and at 200nm out - same simulated skill level.
They both have access to their respective DLs and the side overall is capable of exploiting other sensors but no AEW in place.
This is a straight charge in with no collective offset tactics or approaches - pretty much medieval knights riding to meet each other with sensor/weapons performance what we are looking to see.

Now I cannot change what the programmers of this simulation consider their values for sensor and weapons parameters and I do feel they have assigned the radar range to the J-10C lower than what it is(closer to the JF-17 Block 3) but that is offset to an extent by the range of the PL-15.
Additionally, they also limited the J-10C to only being able to guide 1 PL-15 at a time when that is not the case in reality. It does however somewhat simulate the block-3 to an extent as well so the initial results can be taken analogous to that engagement too barring the block-3s slightly smaller RCS.
To make this engagement fair I limit the Rafale's to launch 1 weapon at each target as well.

Finally, I AM HANDS OFF - no interference.

Quick snapshot shows the detection/engagement range of the J-10(White circle at 75nm) and the weapons range in red.

View attachment 805184

The Rafale has a detection range of 140nm - so nearly twice that of the J-10C shown but then its stick is shorter.

View attachment 805187

Both flights proceed to engage keeping the same altitude and fairly same kinematics as well with the J-10C approaching the max weapons range

View attachment 805190

At exactly 74nm the J-10Cs launch their PL-15s at the Rafales who are in weapons range for the Meteor but dont launch yet.

View attachment 805193

Finally at 70NMs the Meteors are also launch and the Rafale's start to notch - the J-10Cs are still not notching!
View attachment 805194
View attachment 805195

The Meteors don't loft as much as the PL-15s but the Meteors are FASTER due to their Ramjet propulsion and get to their target FASTER!
They go active and the J-10s are finally defending.

View attachment 805196

All 4 J-10Cs are gone while the PL-15s are still in the air!
View attachment 805197



WHEN the PL-15s do arrive they hit 2 Rafale's while the others are able to dodge and get away - thus ended attempt 1 at the simulation.
Since it works as if a dice is rolled in terms of calculating everything from "pilot" responses to weapon impacts I ran it 3 more times.

#2 - J-10Cs all lost, 1 Rafale remains

#3 - J-10Cs 1 survives the first volley while 2 Rafale's survive. ONCE this J-10C survives and both flow Hot again, it launches at another Rafale to bring it down and survives a Meteor. It launches again at the second Rafale and brings it down as well.

#4. No J-10Cs survive and 1 Rafale Survives.

However, as I mentioned the issue lies with the simulated radar range for the J-10C and this result may reflect more the Block-3 rather than the J-10CPs.
so perhaps suited to the other thread but the JF-17 Block-3 isnt some antidote for the Rafale and probably more akin to a numbers equalizer to outstick the IAF.

But, I wasnt done so I manipulated the database and increased the range of the J-10Cs radar to 100nm and allowing them (and the Rafale's) to guide 2 missiles at a time.
Doing that changed the whole game entirely -

Now the J-10Cs werent only launching right at the edge of the PL-15s range but also able to notch more comfortably. The PL-15s would arrive and since they were 2 per target bring down all Rafale's
while the meteors where still 35nm away from the J-10Cs!
Even with their high speed at the weapon endgame the Meteors would at best bring down 2 J-10s in repeat after repeat of this scenario.

View attachment 805200


So - having done so I decided to put up all other assets of the PAF against the Rafale.

JF-17 Block-2 - 2 out of 4 times is unable to engage even and brought down by the Rafale - the other two tries brings down 1-2 Rafales

F-16AM with AIDEWS - Only in 1 engagement do they actually manage to evade the meteor and bring down 3 Rafales but still lose 3-4. Other cases it is 2-4 or 0-4 as well.

So, clearly the other assets of the PAF barring the JF-17 Block-3 and J-10C arent going to have it easy against the Rafale - sure, the chance of this simple straight in engagement are also nearly nil but it goes to simulate what a game changer the Rafale is for the IAF.

Why I state that is because I ran the simulation for other scenarios as well:

J-10C(100nm Radar) with /PL-15 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: Won 4 times and in all it was 0-4 losses
J-10C with /PL-15 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 Win 4 out of 4 times , MKI managed to bring down 1 J10C in 2 rounds.
J-10C with /PL-15 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - Win 4 out of 4 times , UPG managed to bring down 1 J10C in 1 round.
J-10C vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - Win 4 out of 4 times - No chance for Tejas they all went down for no loss to J-10C

JF-17 Block-3(simulated by J-10C with 75nm Radar) W/PL-15 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: 3 out of 4 times could not fire a single MICA and all went down
JF-17 Block-3 W/PL-15 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 - Win 3 out of 4 times-, MKI Won only 1 round after losing 2 of theirs.
JF-17 Block-3 W/PL-15 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - 2 win, 1 draw(shoot each other down) and 1 lost.
JF-17 Block-3 W/PL-15 vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - 4 times they all went down for no loss to Block-3

JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: Evenly matched on rounds- When they win it is 4-3, when they lose it is 2-4.
JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 - 4 rounds EVEN 2-2 with 1-2 JF-17 remaining
JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - 4 times it is an EVEN result with either 1 Mig-29 or JF-17 surviving - very surprising considering the MKI is a superior aircraft in paper specs.
JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - EVEN result with 2 of either aircraft remaining after winning.

F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: Won 3 out of 4.
F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 - 4 rounds EVEN 2-2 with 3-4 F-16 remaining .
F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - Win 3 out of 4 with 2-3 F-16s remaining in all wins.
F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - Won all 4 times - but nearly lost in one round with 1 F-16 remaining.

So, just my thoughts are that at this point the PAF does have the superior stick against most of IAF's fleet except the Rafale.
Stating again that this is a VERY SIMPLE scenario.

Unfortunately we do not have the Astra to simulate so cannot see what that will do to change the engagements.

Hi,
Im sure this takes a lot of time, but I for one would love to see Pathankot 2.0. We all know how the '65 raid went, but what would PAF need to achieve the same in 2023?

Im guessing, a flight of Jfs with ARMs, a couple of flights with Takbirs, another with non-standoff PGMs once over target. And ofcourse a hell lot of F-16s in full AA-loadout and every Blk-III available at that point with dual-racked Pl-15s. Not to mention Blinders, Saabs, tankers doing their thing. But will PAF have to open with Ra'ad carrying Mirages? So many variables, only a simulation can give us some appreciation.

P.S. Obviously in a new thread if you get around to do it.

 

[araz]

You won't have the official confirmation until the fighters arrive in the PAF colors. But if the news turns out to be true, then indeed it is a big development.

While some members might say that the Pakistani trust in the Chinese engine may still not be there hence the AL-31, another way to look at it is well, the airforce is simply much more pleased with the Russian engines, which also puts some questions on the whole narrative of the RD-93 being under powered etc. Who knows

ADDING TO YOUR POST Also how much pressure is released on the WS10 Production by PAF choosing AL31. The Chinese local demand for WS10 remains high and perhaps this would have delayed deliveries. Just a thought!
A

 

[m52k85]

Ppl who will have followed messiach's contribution pre-return vs post her return will be able to put a good score on the authenticity of this revelation.