PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion

[serenity]

yj-12 is a big issue for J-10, too large, too heavy.

Yeah. J-10 definitely cannot carry YJ-12. Even JH-7 cannot carry YJ-12. Only current air carry of YJ-12 is H-6.

YJ-12 is HUGE. For bomber carry and ship launch.

China's stand off weapons are HGVs, ballistic missiles, and artillery forces. China has more rocket artillery weapon types and units than rest of the world combined. There is no way to understate how many pieces of artillery and rocket PLA has. There is the stand off weapon. PLAAF fighters are mostly tasked with air superiority. From which drones, JH-7, H-6 perform any further large scale bombardment duties that PLARF may want some more air based large scale additional bombardment from. Fighters can perform small scale ones too but China has stockpiled tens of thousands of land attack cruise missiles of just the CJ-10 types. Higher end weapons include HGV.

Each country has very different to slightly different way of war. They have different expected types of wars. Very different approach to war.

Stealth stand off weapons for PLA just hasn't been something they considered important. Instead they considered A2AD weapons important and air superiority role for PLAAF fighters as main task rather than bombing or precision strike although that is doable with KD series missiles and YJ series missiles that can be carried on fighters even as lightweight as J-10.

Western airforces and the types of wars they have been running do place high importance on having SEAD capabilities. China is mainly facing defensive land war for regional threats and A2AD type naval war for US threat. SEAD is nowhere near as important. Naval war is primary importance along with A2AD.

If there is a regional war between India and China over hard to reach Himalayas, then SEAD and stealthy stand off missiles become slightly more important but the plan would be to wipe clean every single Indian base with 10,000 ballistic missiles, cruise missiles, HGVs, and fight to gain air superiority, after that, SEAD can be performed by YJ and KD series in huge numbers and bombing of land forces without resistance. GJ-11 stealth UCAV is mainly tasked with SEAD. Totally out of range of short to medium range SAMs which India only has if we ignore S-400. If we account for S-400, those units have to be defeated via electronic attack and stealth based S&D-EAD like GJ-11 but just in higher numbers. J-20 too can perform such a duty. Even if required, rocket forces with over 100km range can wipe clean areas where there are S-400. It becomes a land war and if there is air superiority, the land war is beyond easy in open terrain.

India has zero defence against GJ-11 currently not to mention a combined PLAAF performing S&D-EAD and maintaining air superiority. PLARF is over 20 times the size of Indian artillery and rocket forces. While China has over 30,000 CJ-10 land attack cruise missiles (as hinted stockpiled in case of Taiwan war escalation) India has yet to induct Nirbhay cruise missile.

The most important thing after true stand off range - cruise missiles, ballistic missiles, HGVs, 100km+ rocket artillery, is air superiority. Air superiority is a must to achieve easy land force victory through simply allowing long range artillery to strike their positions while those distance units are protected by ... air superiority.

 

[V. Makarov]

Cure:
And it has a simple cure. Just come and start living here (Pakistan). You would observe how a lot of things that wouldn't be even possible to think of can be done in Pakistan and the relaxation/liberties we experience here can't be found anywhere in those boring developed countries. Then you truly start praising the raw freedom of this land and would never want to change a bit. But to truly experience those blessings you would first have give up that damn passport/visa/nationality which alienates you from your motherland

When an overseas Pakistani comes back to Pakistan after making enough money to transition into the upper-middle class, these freedoms, liberties and relaxations are "unlocked". For the remaining 89% of the people, these freedoms are still "locked". The bottom 89% still has to:

1) Bribe officials for trivial tasks
2) Face the wrath of the tyrant police service
3) Give 55% of the monthly salary in electricity bills
4) serve the full sentence instead of walking away not guilty.
5) Get the inheritance property seized by the local mafia.
6) Get the remaining property seized by own relatives because they bribed the local officials.
7) And also realize the fact that access to quick and reasonable justice is the privilege of the rich.

(These are the problems I have seen with my own eyes in the past 5 years only)

The bottom line is, the freedoms/liberties/relaxations of ANY DEVELOPING country belongs only to the rich, and the people with powerful positions. Others only suffer in the shadows, praying for a government that can provide a country with good social security, low corruption, meritocracy etc. Because if these things are not present, they are exploited by the rich, and the cycle of poverty and disparity continues.

If an overseas Pakistani finds it very convenient to get around bureaucratic red tape after coming back to Pakistan, and is really enjoying the "exciting" liberties of Pakistan, it's almost certain that he has made it in the top 11% of the 220 million population.

My post is not an attempt to criminalize the rich for their role in the society, but just an expression of the ground realities in Pakistan. The pious thing to do is to not rub those liberties generally onto the face of the remaining Pakistanis. They know these liberties exist, and they cannot achieve them in their lifetime.

@TNT

 

[Guli Danda Expert]

Ppl are talking about f16 and bla bla. USA is not going to give you any top noch technolgy now this chapter has been close. The dreamers are somehow can have dreams. If they want to contain china they ll have to neutralize pakistan simple is that they ll not leave pakistan to engage india otherwise containing china ll not b possible. Unfortunately china understand this but some pakistanis not.

 

[Trango Towers]

Disease:
That's called Viral Expats Syndrome. It usually occurs when someone from Pakistan visits a well developed and rich country for the extended period of time.

Symptoms:
Allergic form everything related to Pakistan specially Pakistanis and their attitude.
All Pakistanis are all laid back persons, have nothing to do except gossips 24/7 and pulling each other's legs.
Screwed Law and Justice system in Pakistan (which is actually a correct assumption)
Those illiterate, uncivilized mob of people!
Assessing Pakistan through their current region's lens and observe if the 2 countries are closely aligned or not. If aligned then brag a lot about that and if not then screw you Pakistanis, you need to change yourself.
Try to revolutionize Pakistan in a blink of an eye and copy your current country's "far superior" system in Pakistan.
And lately there's been a pandemic in Pakistani expats of supporting PTI. And that's ok actually aren't supporting any party but wish to bring about change in regime and system. But it's just a wishful thinking.

Have been through that phase personally and have experienced each and every bit of that disease for years myself.


Cure:
And it has a simple cure. Just come and start living here. You would observe how a lot of things that wouldn't be even possible to think of can be done in Pakistan and the relaxation/liberties we experience here can't be found anywhere in those boring developed countries. Then you truly start praising the raw freedom of this land and would never want to change a bit. But to truly experience those blessings you would first have give up that damn passport/visa/nationality which alienates you from your motherland

Just this morning put a complaint into the citizens portal for a corrupt tax officer who is demanding tax from 2014 when in this society the 1st time anyone got a tax bill was 2020 and we received ours 2022. How can you charge late payments when no tax bill was issued. Then he told us if we pay him and he banks the tax he will will reduce it by 2 lakh. Loool.
The property in question is my late father's and 100% of the rent money goes to charity. His sadiqa jariaya. Even the rents we charge are way way below market value to help the small businesses.
Corruptions is a disease that our beloved Quid (may Allah forgive him and us all) focused on in his 1st speech on the creation of Pakistan.

So when you wave the flag...I am all for it. But fix the issues man.

 

[Invictus01]

Bhai I am aerospace engineer.

Weren't you a dermatologist in another thread?

 

[Trango Towers]

Weren't you a dermatologist in another thread?

Loooool I was taking the piss. Was that you who was the fake doctor with cut and paste?

 

[Chak Bamu]

This thread seems to have lost its direction. We need more pictures. Are you listening PAF? We are hungry. Feed us. LOL...

OK, a few things on a serious note - its a bit of OD but please bear with me.

1. Stop ridiculing each other. I did not think I would see seniors being ridiculed like this by know-nothing up-starts. Idiots, one & all. Y'all can be civil but you have to take your frustrations out on others in the name of patriotism, as though the others are less so.

2. Pakistan's relations & strategic orientation has definitely shifted - J-10CP being an indicator of it. The recent pronouncements from PM make it seem as though it is an irreversible swing & I regret his choice of words. Populism is cheap. He is looking at a desperate situation that is mostly of his own making & people should be careful in ascribing his fortunes to Western conspiracies. Establishment or no Establishment, the strategic direction would still be the same. A saner leader would make the shift seem gradual & without the current bombast. It does not suit Pakistan's interests to brazenly commit to blocs. We must navigate to our advantage without antagonizing others.

3. It is in Pakistan's interest to maintain a strong position & then try to find peace partners in the region, including India. Yes, India because long term prosperity of the region is in making peace, improving connectivity, & reaping dividends. We must look beyond Modi & BJP. Having strong allies & having parity in weapons with our enemies should put us on road to peace, not war. If we are well-connected & secure, we do not need to belong to any bloc. Chinese BRI is a game-changer for the region. If sanity prevails in India, they would see it too. We can work for the region instead of playing bloc politics. Again, populism is cheap & easy. It takes vision to look beyond the obvious.

I foresee a change in thinking in the wake of the Russia-Ukraine war. We should use this opportunity for peace. Pakistan, China, & India should be partners in peace and to me it is quite obvious that this is where future lies. The only use of weapons is to make us secure so that we may approach future with confidence. J-10 should help us do that.

 

[siegecrossbow]

22 amraams = total weight 7356 pounds.

Weight isn’t the issue. Real problem is that your aerodynamics get ruined.

 

[Zarvan]

This thread seems to have lost its direction. We need more pictures. Are you listening PAF? We are hungry. Feed us. LOL...

OK, a few things on a serious note - its a bit of OD but please bear with me.

1. Stop ridiculing each other. I did not think I would see seniors being ridiculed like this by know-nothing up-starts. Idiots, one & all. Y'all can be civil but you have to take your frustrations out on others in the name of patriotism, as though the others are less so.

2. Pakistan's relations & strategic orientation has definitely shifted - J-10CP being an indicator of it. The recent pronouncements from PM make it seem as though it is an irreversible swing & I regret his choice of words. Populism is cheap. He is looking at a desperate situation that is mostly of his own making & people should be careful in ascribing his fortunes to Western conspiracies. Establishment or no Establishment, the strategic direction would still be the same. A saner leader would make the shift seem gradual & without the current bombast. It does not suit Pakistan's interests to brazenly commit to blocs. We must navigate to our advantage without antagonizing others.

3. It is in Pakistan's interest to maintain a strong position & then try to find peace partners in the region, including India. Yes, India because long term prosperity of the region is in making peace, improving connectivity, & reaping dividends. We must look beyond Modi & BJP. Having strong allies & having parity in weapons with our enemies should put us on read to peace, not war. If we are well-connected & secure, we do not need to belong to any bloc. Chinese BRI is a game-changer for the region. If sanity prevails in India, they would see it too. We can work for the region instead of playing bloc politics. Again, populism is cheap & easy. It takes vision to look beyond the obvious.

I foresee a change in thinking in the wake of the Russia-Ukraine war. We should use this opportunity for peace. Pakistan, China, & India should be partners in peace and to me it is quite obvious that this is where future lies. The only use of weapons is to make us secure so that we may approach future with confidence. J-10 should help us do that.

What did I miss. Today my new semester starts and things get on fire here and I end up missing them. On serious note. If PAF is not asking Sheikh to leak stuff then somebody needs to talk to him. As for J-10 I really hope we get 25 by 23rd March and India will order more Rafale after seeing J-10 C flying on 23rd March INSHALLAH

 

[Vapnope]

What did I miss. Today my new semester starts and things get on fire here and I end up missing them. On serious note. If PAF is not asking Sheikh to leak stuff then somebody needs to talk to him. As for J-10 I really hope we get 25 by 23rd March and India will order more Rafale after seeing J-10 C flying on 23rd March INSHALLAH

You should poke Alan warnes, you might push him to spill more beans

 

[johncliu88]

Why are people comparing J-10C to F-15EX? They are not the same class. J-10 series were designed as air superior fighter jet while F-15E or EX are multi-route and air to ground striking tasks. If Pak air force needs a bombing truck, why not order some J-16 from China, which can carry 12 tons of ammo instead?

 

[Readerdefence]

Why are people comparing J-10C to F-15EX? They are not the same class. J-10 series were designed as air superior fighter jet while F-15E or EX are multi-route and air to ground striking tasks. If Pak air force needs a bombing truck, why not order some J-16 from China, which can carry 12 tons of ammo instead?

Hi exactly comparing a single engine with twin engine plane been around for too long and get upgrades accordingly
thank you

 

[Scorpiooo]

Why are people comparing J-10C to F-15EX? They are not the same class. J-10 series were designed as air superior fighter jet while F-15E or EX are multi-route and air to ground striking tasks. If Pak air force needs a bombing truck, why not order some J-16 from China, which can carry 12 tons of ammo instead?

I coming year we will see twin engine heavyweight fighters in PAF or PN colour

 

[PakShaheen79]

This thread seems to have lost its direction. We need more pictures. Are you listening PAF? We are hungry. Feed us. LOL...

OK, a few things on a serious note - its a bit of OD but please bear with me.

1. Stop ridiculing each other. I did not think I would see seniors being ridiculed like this by know-nothing up-starts. Idiots, one & all. Y'all can be civil but you have to take your frustrations out on others in the name of patriotism, as though the others are less so.

2. Pakistan's relations & strategic orientation has definitely shifted - J-10CP being an indicator of it. The recent pronouncements from PM make it seem as though it is an irreversible swing & I regret his choice of words. Populism is cheap. He is looking at a desperate situation that is mostly of his own making & people should be careful in ascribing his fortunes to Western conspiracies. Establishment or no Establishment, the strategic direction would still be the same. A saner leader would make the shift seem gradual & without the current bombast. It does not suit Pakistan's interests to brazenly commit to blocs. We must navigate to our advantage without antagonizing others.

3. It is in Pakistan's interest to maintain a strong position & then try to find peace partners in the region, including India. Yes, India because long term prosperity of the region is in making peace, improving connectivity, & reaping dividends. We must look beyond Modi & BJP. Having strong allies & having parity in weapons with our enemies should put us on read to peace, not war. If we are well-connected & secure, we do not need to belong to any bloc. Chinese BRI is a game-changer for the region. If sanity prevails in India, they would see it too. We can work for the region instead of playing bloc politics. Again, populism is cheap & easy. It takes vision to look beyond the obvious.

I foresee a change in thinking in the wake of the Russia-Ukraine war. We should use this opportunity for peace. Pakistan, China, & India should be partners in peace and to me it is quite obvious that this is where future lies. The only use of weapons is to make us secure so that we may approach future with confidence. J-10 should help us do that.

A rare commodity. A post full of strategic thought and wisdom. My views on your views
1. I fully endorse what you wrote there.
2. I think many people are picking one question PM asks in public about West's view on Pakistan and its policies and are completely ignoring other sentences of the same speech where he said we are in no one's camp, we are friends with everyone in peace. Then he named EU, US, Russia and China with whom Pakistan seek friendship in peace. His views about EU must be seen in context particularly after how Poland and other Ukrainian neighbors are deciding who to accept in their country as a refugee. (Blond hair, Blue eyes)
3. I am in agreement with what you have suggested there viz-a-viz India. I also feel that the region will remain hostage of this enmity between India and Pakistan. And you proposed that we must look beyond BJP and Modi. Well, We can't look beyond, but we certainly can look at India before BJP+Modi to put things in perspective.

India, since 1971, has introduced 7 or 8 cycles of strategic instability in the region through its political-military doctrines/strategies towards Pakistan and each of these tells the same story about Indian foreign policy goals about Pakistan. Each time, Pakistan was the one which had to introduce stability back in the prevailing stability-instability paradigm in the region to ensure regional peace.
1. 1974: India went nuclear; Pakistan began its nuclear program.
2. 1983: India initiated her Integrated Ballistic Missile Program; Pakistani response came in 1989 with Hatf-1/ Hatf-2
3. 1986-87: Operation BrassTacks. Military buildup on border behind the facade of a military exercise. Pakistan's response and Zia's cricket diplomacy is part of the history now.
4. 1998: India went Overt with nuclear. Pakistan responded with 6 nuclear explosions. Rest is history.
5. 2001-02: Operation Parakaram. 10 months long stand-off. Pakistani response forced India to back off.
6. 2004: India introduced Pro-Active War Strategy / Cold Start Doctrine: India began seeking limited war under nuclear overhang. Pakistan introduced "New Concept of War Fighting" (NCWF) backed with policies of Full Spectrum deterrence (for Nuclear forces) and Minimum Credible Deference (for Conventional forces).
7. 2019: Balakot Strike; Pakistan Surprised India in broad daylight, rest is history. But even then Indian rhetoric against Pakistan continuous, and she went ahead with indulging Pakistan in an arms race.
8: 2020 onwards: India became 3rd largest spender on military. Introduced Rafale/Meteor and other advanced capabilities ... Pakistan is responding through its own modernization of military. This current modernization of PAF at unprecedented levels is also due to this Indian poly now where She thinks Pakistan can be bankrupt through an armed race in the region. When did we see earlier in our history induction of so many high-tech systems in PAF all at once? (J-10C, JF-17 Block III, Drones, New missiles, Radars like YLC-18 and a new AD system which PAF is to get in near future.)

In this background, remember BJP/Modi entered this scene only in 2014 ... before that it was all Congress. I began with 1971, as this current Pakistan came into existence only then, else I would have listed 20 such occasions when India thought Pakistan is a walkover and this Indian mentality is the core of problem. It considers Pakistan another Bhutan or Nepal or Maldev which Pakistan certainly is not! As it always takes 2 to make a quarrel, it also takes 2 to make peace.

 

[Materialistic]

You are right, those contracts and uncle SAMs interference is an issue. But I recall some analysts and air force veterans denied any such restrictions being part of the contract when 29th Feb happened. Are the details of that contract public? Does it explicitly bound us? If F16s were not bought to be used against India then why did we buy them in the first place? Considering our long history or wars with India. Is it speculated or confirmed information?

I think it will be counter-productive for both parties to openly acknowledge the terms. But it is an open secret and not just in case of the US but yes, US is the one with the most restrictions on usage. As for our procurement terms with reference to India there are two different eras, two different levels of relationships and usage.

Our initial F16 procurement was a direct purchase at that time and use against India was the prime role. US had no issues in fact they used to openly support us in the name of maintaining balance of power in South Asia. However, the later acquisitions were part of Coalition support against WoT (usage: anti-terrorism) and by this time our relations had deteriorated significantly and US had tilted towards India. India raised concerns and this time US's didn't refer to the balance of power instead these new birds/upgrades came for WoT.
Hence, the issue.

Here's an interesting read:

India and the US-Pakistan F-16 Agreement

Also, almost always India would invade our airspace and try to bomb our installations first. Wouldn't a counter attack on their airports be considered a defensive role? Its a legal matter and contestable. We will not be going on an invasion spree. We are retaliating against a force who is attacking us. There is a lot of space for Pakistan to contest this. But would we? Thats the thing.

Maybe we wouldn't take risk considering Uncle SAMs closing ties with India and moodiness. However, once we induct J10cs in numbers, we already have replacement of F16s. Its not the only platform we are relying on for our defence. Hence we can be more risky with F16s.

The article is interesting and it makes sense that retaliation is considered a defensive act which does give us some more space. Agree, once we have J10s in required numbers then PAF would be happy keeping F16s to defensive roles only.