PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion

[UKBengali]

Why post computer graphics to explain your point?

Dude, it is a low quality photo and illustrates how J-10C is no match for the EFT.

 

[TopGun786]

Dude, it is a low quality photo and illustrates how J-10C is no match for the EFT.

I have read your comments above can simply say that you have gone too far (almost in the realm of fantasy) due to your biased behavior. Keep it cool man and try to accept other people's points of view also. I will not say you are totally wrong (or even mostly wrong) but I can see some of the guys have more realistic and convincing statements.

 

[tphuang]

On the topic of learning AESA and unlearning mechanically scanned radar, one also has to remember there is an EW suite version of this. Remember when Pakistan bought F-16 and how DFRM talked about glowingly here?

Russian EW Weaknesses Endure While Other Nations Innovate | AIN

Russia’s EW system development has failed to change direction to account for inherent weaknesses.

www.ainonline.com

This article about how Russia is backward now because it still uses DFRM against modern radar. You know when the Russians use it, it can't be that advanced. Other thing to think about is that with Rafale using AESA radar with LPI behavior, F-16 and probably block 1/2 JF-17 would have hard time confusing its radar with older EW suite technology. It's probably why J-10s and block 3 JF-17s are needed. You need modern EW suite to combat a modern radar. Similarly, Rafale's EW suite would have a hard time jamming the latest Chinese radar given what USAF has described about Chinese radar's ability to change pulse shaping and presumably frequency hop. Having more T/R modules do help here, since you can operate on more different frequencies.

On AESA... read and learn. This is old PLAAF and Chinese technology capability from mid 2010 era.

https://www.airforcemag.com/article/dominating-the-spectrum/

Above shows the level of Chinese electromagnetic capabilities. US considering EM neutrality just because China is so far ahead. This is why PLA trains and place high emphasis on triple redundancy down to unguided rockets practice.

I would be cautious in thinking that US is behind China here. I've listened to them talk about this and the USAF is being extremely humble and cautious when talking about the ability of USAF conducting EW vs China so that everyone will take China's modern techs seriously.

I think USAF statement shows that China is very advanced in EW and it's raising alarm bells within USAF. Against older American fighter jet, like the ones that Japan (not including F-35s) and Taiwan have, J-16s probably will be at a distinctive advantage. It would be a mistake to assume the latest USAF technology cannot compete with the latest PLAAF technology.

Electronics does not just include the AESA radar.

It is the full EW suite and there is no way that China has matched the French yet in this respect - they are probably close but not yet up there.

Also remember that the French have tested their systems in conflicts around the world and so have that extra vital real-world experience that China lacks.

As a real example of how capable the French fighter electronics are, the Rafale went into Libya without any growler escorts as it could "blind' the Libyan air-defence systems. I know they are not the most advanced in the world but neither the UK or the USA dared send in their fighters without dedicated EW escort aircraft as well.

Think there is just a bit too much nationalism and not enough realism here.
Not the same analogy dude.

USAF was specific that China's advances include not just radar, but electronics attack, defense, signal intelligence and all aspect of Electronic warfare. Keep in mind that Chinese EW suite would also be emitting signals from AESA radar. There is no reason a radar that is capable of emitting different pulses at different frequencies would not be able to do the same with electronics attack and defense.

As for vital real-world, you obviously haven't followed what's been going on around China. USAF did not get all this details of Chinese EW capabilities in vacuum. They got them from Taiwan/Japan air defense and fighter jet who are obviously having trouble dealing with intruding PLAAF aircraft. Taiwan has already given up trying to intercept PLAAF aircraft and is leaving it's old air defense radar system at the mercy of J-16s, H-6s and Y-8s. At this point, any reports from Taiwan about the number/types of intruding PLAAF aircraft need to be taken with a grain of salt, because PLAAF is just fooling around with them.

There is no compelling evidence that the J-20 is better in any way than 4+ fighters apart from in the area of stealth. In fact China is yet to field 5th gen engines in J-20 and the engines in Western 4+ gen fighters are of a higher technological level.

China is getting there but it will take probably 1/2 more decades before it can become a world leader in military technology.

What in the world are you talking about? The aerodynamic layout in J-20 is extremely advanced. The only thing you can call 4th generation is the engine. And nobody has indicated that they are anything but late 4th generation engine. And J-20 with WS-15 are being tested right now. At a minimum, the statements from USAF shows that they regard PLAAF as a worthy adversary in the electronics space. And the radar/EW suite on J-20 would be of a later generation than what's on Rafale.

Also keep in mind that there is a difference between Western countries. Let's assume China is 1/2 decade behind the latest USAF technology in EW. It's still probably at least at parity, if not a few years ahead of the Europeans.

Have the French done any major upgrade to Rafale's radar/EW suite since 2013? If they have, why is RBE-AA still one with just 800 T/R modules.

 

[arjunk]

14 Meteors and 2 IRIS-Ts in "Beast Mode

And it handles like an A380

 

[UKBengali]

And it handles like an A380

Did you miss the part where I stated 180kN in thrust in total?

 

[Blueskiez 2001]

Hi,

That is an important question---then one may be led to ask---what has stopped the paf from buying the J10's----.

All the world knows that there maybe sanctions on pakistan one more time---or the U S may simply put hurdles in the sale of the F16----.

And the new hurdle is that the senators would okay the sale but refuse to release the money---.

So----yes---why did the paf not decide 3 years ago to get this aircraft---learn to operate it and modify it according to their needs.

The only way you can get these answers is to put the different air chiefs and seniors officials on THE HOT SEAT in the parliament and on the TV and someone with knowledge needs to GRIIL them on the issue.

There needs to be some fire lit under their feet.

When the PAF says that we were waiting for the choice of MMRCA to be finalized to make our decision----my question is FOR WHAT PURPOSE---you are only going to get what you are going to get---there are no miracles happening---so why not take advantage of the time that you have been given and imporve on the J10.

Now this option for the JF17 that I mention is for that very reason that the paf has not picked up the J10C---. Seems like they don't like the engineering concept behind the aircraft.

For that reason---then a change needs to be made to the JF17. The current aircraft is a successful example and to modify it to a slightly larger scale and wheel modification will not cost a lot.

If the whole JF17 program cost 400 mil dollars---this modification would cost in the range of less than 50 mil dollars and less than a year---so the overall cost will be miniscule when absorbed by 150-200 fighter aircraft.



Hi,

Uptill now they have shown to be one of the most fckd up organization of our military---.

Hi,

No---the deal would have been done some 8 years ago.

Picked the aircraft---the engine---the ew package---finalized the ew package and the engine---went into production---flight traing---integration of weapons system etc etc etc---then pilot training.

So---when I stated the deal was done somewhere around 2014---that is the time period that it falls under.

Salaam Mastankhan

Sometimes we all have a tendency to analyze and criticize from non-available data.

It sounds very interesting if PAF has been involved involved in the J-10 program since 2014... I do not have any knowledge of that so I can´t comment on it. But it sounds a bit of a long induction period UNLESS as you have stated that PAF was directly involved in the technical specifications of the air craft, because development, installation and the most important part integration takes a lot of time and resources.

The reason I have quoted your two post is just for an example of how difficult it can be to get knowledge and predict what has happened when you are evaluating on the present knowledge and how easy it is to do it hindsight.

So my take is on what stopped PAF to buy J-10 was that they wanted it to be better than it was. PAF worked with Chengdu with their knowledge and specification improvement. Some people may think thank PAF doesn´t have anything to bring to the table. And they are certainly wrong. YES they cant bring any industrial base to the table but they can absolutely bring aviation knowledge (and exposed to western tech) to the table. AND this is something you can´t buy or develop indigenously.

regards

 

[arjunk]

J-10C is not even Pakistani plane.

So?

 

[serenity]

On the topic of learning AESA and unlearning mechanically scanned radar, one also has to remember there is an EW suite version of this. Remember when Pakistan bought F-16 and how DFRM talked about glowingly here?

Russian EW Weaknesses Endure While Other Nations Innovate | AIN

Russia’s EW system development has failed to change direction to account for inherent weaknesses.

www.ainonline.com

This article about how Russia is backward now because it still uses DFRM against modern radar. You know when the Russians use it, it can't be that advanced. Other thing to think about is that with Rafale using AESA radar with LPI behavior, F-16 and probably block 1/2 JF-17 would have hard time confusing its radar with older EW suite technology. It's probably why J-10s and block 3 JF-17s are needed. You need modern EW suite to combat a modern radar. Similarly, Rafale's EW suite would have a hard time jamming the latest Chinese radar given what USAF has described about Chinese radar's ability to change pulse shaping and presumably frequency hop. Having more T/R modules do help here, since you can operate on more different frequencies.


I would be cautious in thinking that US is behind China here. I've listened to them talk about this and the USAF is being extremely humble and cautious when talking about the ability of USAF conducting EW vs China so that everyone will take China's modern techs seriously.

I think USAF statement shows that China is very advanced in EW and it's raising alarm bells within USAF. Against older American fighter jet, like the ones that Japan (not including F-35s) and Taiwan have, J-16s probably will be at a distinctive advantage. It would be a mistake to assume the latest USAF technology cannot compete with the latest PLAAF technology.


USAF was specific that China's advances include not just radar, but electronics attack, defense, signal intelligence and all aspect of Electronic warfare. Keep in mind that Chinese EW suite would also be emitting signals from AESA radar. There is no reason a radar that is capable of emitting different pulses at different frequencies would not be able to do the same with electronics attack and defense.

As for vital real-world, you obviously haven't followed what's been going on around China. USAF did not get all this details of Chinese EW capabilities in vacuum. They got them from Taiwan/Japan air defense and fighter jet who are obviously having trouble dealing with intruding PLAAF aircraft. Taiwan has already given up trying to intercept PLAAF aircraft and is leaving it's old air defense radar system at the mercy of J-16s, H-6s and Y-8s. At this point, any reports from Taiwan about the number/types of intruding PLAAF aircraft need to be taken with a grain of salt, because PLAAF is just fooling around with them.


What in the world are you talking about? The aerodynamic layout in J-20 is extremely advanced. The only thing you can call 4th generation is the engine. And nobody has indicated that they are anything but late 4th generation engine. And J-20 with WS-15 are being tested right now. At a minimum, the statements from USAF shows that they regard PLAAF as a worthy adversary in the electronics space. And the radar/EW suite on J-20 would be of a later generation than what's on Rafale.

Also keep in mind that there is a difference between Western countries. Let's assume China is 1/2 decade behind the latest USAF technology in EW. It's still probably at least at parity, if not a few years ahead of the Europeans.

Have the French done any major upgrade to Rafale's radar/EW suite since 2013? If they have, why is RBE-AA still one with just 800 T/R modules.

I didn't say PLAAF is ahead of USAF. It is to bring to the attention that China is not some below France level country in electronic war. In fact it is an equal to the US.

Which you seem to agree with. Rafale's AESA modules are from the US. The French do not make it themselves.

China has made photonic radar technologies for nearly 10 years now. They should be towards the completion end of their development. To talk about RBE's AESA to J-10C's even is doing J-10C a great disservice. Like comparing a 2022 Mercedes S class with 2010 Renault. The Chinese have been AESA leaders for some time WITH the USA. This isn't China's first AESA not even close. However what PAF gets may not be the same as what PLAAF uses due to opsec reasons.

No analysis given, 122 posts in total and a Pakistani fanboy at the same time.

Stop embarrassing yourself here.

J-10C is not even Pakistani plane. Put on ignore list as you are a time waster.

@tphuang

I know you are a nationalist dude but you are getting carried away a little in your post there.

It is fine as you are free to believe what you want.

Taiwan will soon get F-16Vs and they will show the PLAAF that the West is still a little ahead in electronics.

Don't take this the wrong way but honestly you have only been attacking others and making empty proclamations.

So how is the F-16V got better electronics. Surely none of us here truly know. Therefore the confidence comes from ?

Anyway friend. It's better not to get too heated with these things. We can all believe whatever we want. I've tried to give some reasons with evidence like what technologies China's already shown and demonstrated to be effective and works. They are not Ghatak drones of dreaming and posturing. Chinese hypersonic aircrafts do fly ... even around the globe. 6G technology currently in action in space. Quantum computers are receiving dedicated OS for certain problem solving. Just few examples showing that perhaps it's not all so plainly west is always best. Anyway it's easy to call something as said by a Chinese nationalist. Just like it is to claim it for whoever. Honestly China shows but a fraction of what it is doing and has already done and mastered. It isn't out to win perception wars (which is partly why stigmas continue) nor is it interested in convincing everyone of its abilities.

In many domains China is behind the US and in some quite far behind but in a few it is matching and in some it is exceeding. This was far from the case even 20 years ago.

 

[Vapnope]

The discussion has drifted to J10c vs Rafale. I think no one should have a doubt about capabilities of Rafale as we still use Mirages and they continue to serve us well.

I'd request you guys to stop mocking each other because it would not do anything good for the thread at hand.

 

[araz]

Not sure how reliable this site is ... seems he still rates those J-10CP images as faked and otherwise this account looks more than "fishy"!

Dont make any sense. It seems listening to these people that PAF has started growing a money tree.
Apart from the financial issue the actual acquisition does not make sense at all.
A

14 Meteors and 2 IRIS-Ts in "Beast Mode" - 180kN of thrust from the 2 EJ-2000 engines. J-10C would not want to fight something like this. Kid, think it is time for you not to get involved in adult conversation here.

View attachment 818127

Beta.
Keep your enthusiasm to yourself. No one in their right mind will come to a war arena loaded up like that. Can you imagine what happens if the oponent fires a AAM towards you. You will be forced to jetison the load and run to avoid the AAM.
A

 

[Windjammer]

Just for the record, compare the size difference between a J-10C and a Thunder Bravo.

 

[SD 10]

14 Meteors and 2 IRIS-Ts in "Beast Mode" - 180kN of thrust from the 2 EJ-2000 engines. J-10C would not want to fight something like this. Kid, think it is time for you not to get involved in adult conversation here.

View attachment 818127

keep on dreaming........... talk about it when you can get it, rightnow they wont even give you the RC model kid!

 

[messiach]

@All
Ref to Jian10 : some acquisitions are made with the mutual intent of longterm political, strategic and technical goals in mind.
x

 

[KampfAlwin]

Do you seriously think that Rafale is not a good aircraft?

Both India and Indonesia have brough it and nearly 300 have been sold abroad. It is not just Arabs that have brought the plane.

With Western nations you forget that they share technology and so a lot of US technology does make it's way into the hands of other Western nations.

With China they pretty much are on their own and so harder for them.

Ok. When and where did I say Rafale is not a good aircraft? Stop putting words in my mouth. Why do you keep insulting many people, calling them 'fanboys' and 'nationalists' when you are ironically and hypocritically being one right now? You ask for quality conversation yet you don't engage similarly.

You're also saying France/UK has to rely on US for tech transfers? Doesn't that imply they're incapable of innovation, while China can do it all on her own? You never elaborate on how, just how France is more advanced than China in tech. Your arguments basically boil down to just saying "French tech better because, I dunno, they're Europeans? And Europeans are superior." That is not evidence. Give me concrete evidence on how French tech is superior. What does their radar/engines/airframe have that is superior to China's? Why couldn't they field a 5th gen before China, but somehow is more superior in that area than them? etc

 

[Man of steel23]

@All
Ref to Jian10 : some acquisitions are made with the mutual intent of longterm political, strategic and technical goals in mind.
x

The use of at all is a first one