No Nuclear Limit: China

[Agnostic_Indian]

US -China Disagreement on NFU :
As stated above , China has consistently called on the United States to adopt a no -first- use policy , to reach a NFU agreement bilaterally with China and to conclude an NFU agreement among the five nuclear weapon states . Some arguments put forward by both sides --from both academics and policymakers -- include the following:
Chinese arguments : NFU is important to preventing nuclear war , strengthening the nonproliferation regime, and promoting nuclear disarmament The United States does not need to reserve the right to use nuclear weapons first due to US conventional superiority A no - first-use pledge is a necessary first step to achieving multilateral nuclear reductions among the five nuclear weapon states NFU is a serious political commitment with a strong politically -binding force , and will provide for more strategic stability than the existing deterrence policies
US arguments:
The option to use nuclear weapons first under extraordinary circumstances is necessary to provide credible security guarantees to its alliance partners around the globe ; US security commitments to other countries are much wider than China' s and thus demand a NFU policy. The adoption of an NFU policy might undermine the credibility of US security guarantees to its allies , pushing them toward acquiring nuclear weapon capabilities of their own NFU is highly symbolic , lacks real substance, is not verifiable , and can be easily changed The option to use nuclear weapons first can deter the use of chemical or biological weapons (CBW ) against the United States and its allies and friends
No-First-Use (NFU)

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Honestly, if India plans to make 10,000 nukes, we have no problem with that at all.

We are not some troblemakers who love to stick its nose to other people's business.

 

[Akasa]

You mean this...???

Buncha of conscript rejects...

So, a single "what if" statement is posted and you automatically assume everybody's taking about "nuclear war"? Either that you're very poor at observing and analyzing the discussion or you rely on generalization. Neither of the above is a good thing.

And in case you haven't noticed, the US media is by far the biggest producer of "what if" articles. And since I highly doubt that the authors of these articles are "generals", then perhaps people should stop reading them, according to your suggestions.

BTW, the concept of "conscript rejects" contradicts itself.

 

[DesiGuy]

not good.....anyways...

 

[gambit]

So, a single "what if" statement is posted and you automatically assume everybody's taking about "nuclear war"? Either that you're very poor at observing and analyzing the discussion or you rely on generalization. Neither of the above is a good thing.

And in case you haven't noticed, the US media is by far the biggest producer of "what if" articles. And since I highly doubt that the authors of these articles are "generals", then perhaps people should stop reading them, according to your suggestions.

And what did I 'suggested'? This is about nuclear weapons reduction. Is China on board with this or not? Do you support at least a suspension of nuclear weapons buildups, if not reduction?

BTW, the concept of "conscript rejects" contradicts itself.

No it is not. Conscription is coercion into service. It is very possible to reject a conscript for any reason, easiest of all is medical. But since none of you ever served in the military, you would not know that. And am willing to bet that all of you are either too cowardly to serve your conscription call or you were rejected.

 

[DesiGuy]

Honestly, if India plans to make 10,000 nukes, we have no problem with that at all.

We are not some troblemakers who love to stick its nose to other people's business.

i disagree....

 

[tanlixiang28776]

There are too many volunteers to ever need conscripts unless its WW3 or something.

 

[casual]

And what did I 'suggested'? This is about nuclear weapons reduction. Is China on board with this or not? Do you support at least a suspension of nuclear weapons buildups, if not reduction?


No it is not. Conscription is coercion into service. It is very possible to reject a conscript for any reason, easiest of all is medical. But since none of you ever served in the military, you would not know that. And am willing to bet that all of you are either too cowardly to serve your conscription call or you were rejected.

reported

 

[gambit]

There are too many volunteers to ever need conscripts unless its WW3 or something.

Still sucking up that lie, eh?

PLA Enlisted Force - Conscripts

The annual conscription process in the PLA begins each August when the military holds a two-day conference to make arrangements for the upcoming winter conscription cycle. In the PLAN, operational units determine how many new conscripts and NCOs are needed for the coming year. PLAN units then submit these figures to each fleet, military region, and PLAN Headquarters, where they are compiled and sent to the GSD. Also in August, local People’s Armed Forces Departments or PAFDs, which are military organizations that operate on behalf of the local government, are required to contact all draft-age males who reach the age of 18 before 31 December of the current calendar year. These individuals must register for military service by the end of September.

And here is the bad news for you...

That is not good for the PLA in general, worse if particular branch is heavily dependent upon technologically adept enlisted. In the USAF, there is a joke that it take a college degree to fly a jet but only a high school education to fix it. The non-commissioned officers (NCO) corps is the backbone of any military. They are the people who know the ins and outs of how to sustain the force. They are supposed to lead more than work. In my experience, and it has been supported in many countries, when NCOs begins to bear the burden of daily work because of the lack of the lower enlisted, a decline in force quality should be expected. The US experienced some of this decline when it had conscription for the Vietnam War. Soviet defectors confirmed this character defect in the Soviet military throughout the entire Cold War. With the supposedly 'stealth' J-20, two years of service will not be enough to become acquainted with a subsystem, such as flight controls, let alone the entire integrated avionics. But if China does not have conscription, there would be no PLA at all. Better to have a lower quality of force than no force at all, I guess...

 

[S10]

Still sucking up that lie, eh?

PLA Enlisted Force - Conscripts

And here is the bad news for you...

That is not good for the PLA in general, worse if particular branch is heavily dependent upon technologically adept enlisted. In the USAF, there is a joke that it take a college degree to fly a jet but only a high school education to fix it. The non-commissioned officers (NCO) corps is the backbone of any military. They are the people who know the ins and outs of how to sustain the force. They are supposed to lead more than work. In my experience, and it has been supported in many countries, when NCOs begins to bear the burden of daily work because of the lack of the lower enlisted, a decline in force quality should be expected. The US experienced some of this decline when it had conscription for the Vietnam War. Soviet defectors confirmed this character defect in the Soviet military throughout the entire Cold War. With the supposedly 'stealth' J-20, two years of service will not be enough to become acquainted with a subsystem, such as flight controls, let alone the entire integrated avionics. But if China does not have conscription, there would be no PLA at all. Better to have a lower quality of force than no force at all, I guess...

Heh, another fool who thinks he know it all because he read it on globalsecurity.org. Always happy to see idiots put a foot in their mouths. For your information, the term of service is 3 years, not 2.

In China, the constitution requires all able-bodied men reaching the age of 18 to serve in the military, but only an extremely small minority of them actually do. Going to the military often guarentee a stable future for youths from rural areas. The process is extremely competitive and some resort to bribing to get their sons in. Conscription is in name only, since there is such a vast pool of willing candidates to pick from. Upon completion of their "mandatory" term, they can be raised to the rank of NCO. They would be given further training, as well as increased pay that normally exceeds local jobs. Some NCOs are even sent to military academies and commissioned as officers later.

Just from my family alone, two of my cousins were received letters which requested that they present themselves to the local recruiter. Both were sent back home. One for poor eye sight and the other did not wish to serve. Before I left China, I had 50 classmates in my home class. None of them went to the military the last time I checked.

Try sticking to something you actually know before shooting your mouth.

 

[cross1993]

Still sucking up that lie, eh?

PLA Enlisted Force - Conscripts

And here is the bad news for you...

That is not good for the PLA in general, worse if particular branch is heavily dependent upon technologically adept enlisted. In the USAF, there is a joke that it take a college degree to fly a jet but only a high school education to fix it. The non-commissioned officers (NCO) corps is the backbone of any military. They are the people who know the ins and outs of how to sustain the force. They are supposed to lead more than work. In my experience, and it has been supported in many countries, when NCOs begins to bear the burden of daily work because of the lack of the lower enlisted, a decline in force quality should be expected. The US experienced some of this decline when it had conscription for the Vietnam War. Soviet defectors confirmed this character defect in the Soviet military throughout the entire Cold War. With the supposedly 'stealth' J-20, two years of service will not be enough to become acquainted with a subsystem, such as flight controls, let alone the entire integrated avionics. But if China does not have conscription, there would be no PLA at all. Better to have a lower quality of force than no force at all, I guess...

Chinese are rushing to military service, PLA never worried about sources of troops...
We have 1.3 billion people, only 2.3 million troops.

If we according to the constitution to recruit soldiers, we will have 80+ million troops...

 

[gambit]

Heh, another fool who thinks he know it all because he read it on globalsecurity.org. Always happy to see idiots put a foot in their mouths. For your information, the term of service is 3 years, not 2.

Even your pals over at sinodefense says 2 years. The original issue is not about term of obligated service but about whether there is conscription for the PLA, which one of you says 'not', which we know is not true. That is typical of you Chinese boys here, that you are lousy with sourcing your argument.

But say that it is three years obligation...The first year is usually spent for basic training, basic military education, and basic technical instructions. For the infantry, a three-year commitment would be enough, but for more specialized fields, after that initial year, at least one more year is for a combination of classroom and on-the-job (OJT) training. That leave only one year for the service to recoup its investment? US Navy nuclear propulsion specialists attends up to two years of technical training after that initial first year of service, and the USN has a first-term reenlistment rate of over %50 and over %60 for second-term enlistees.

In China, the constitution requires all able-bodied men reaching the age of 18 to serve in the military, but only an extremely small minority of them actually do. Going to the military often guarentee a stable future for youths from rural areas. The process is extremely competitive and some resort to bribing to get their sons in. Conscription is in name only, since there is such a vast pool of willing candidates to pick from. Upon completion of their "mandatory" term, they can be raised to the rank of NCO. They would be given further training, as well as increased pay that normally exceeds local jobs.

If it is conscription 'in name only', then why not do away with it? But it is not 'in name only' if one has to report in person to a recruiter. For US, there is only the Selective Service System registration that tell the government statistically how many are available for military service. That registration can be done through the US Postal Service card, not in person to any recruiting office. From that point on, the US military has to compete with the private sector for this person's service. If life in the PLA is so good, then why the gross disparity between the NCOs and the lower enlisted ranks?

Some NCOs are even sent to military academies and commissioned as officers later.

Even? That implies higher professional military education is an option. For US, higher professional military education is not an option, it is mandatory. The PLA took a harsh look at its own professional military education (PME) after the 1991 first Gulf War. The Soviet model that took roots where political ideology dominated the program was discarded. The PLA's leadership was shocked into recognizing that they must change from a quantity based military to a quality based one and that in order to do so, they must revamp their entire PME system to follow that of the Western model: the US, the UK, and even some Japanese institutions.

Here...

The Jamestown Foundation: Beijing Wary of “Color Revolutions” Sweeping Middle East/North Africa[tt_news]=4043&tx_ttnews[backPid]=197&no_cache=1

In early 1999, the PLA leadership came to the realization that its military education system was ill-prepared to groom officers with the technical expertise necessary to master the demands of high-technology warfare. The existing military academy structure, styled after the old Soviet system, maintained more than 100 academies—many redundant—and kept nearly a quarter of the PLA’s force structure tied up in military schools. Moreover, the sheer size of the PLA military-academic complex prevented the capital upgrades in computers and other equipment necessary for systematically training cadets to address looming technological challenges.

In response, the Chinese leadership undertook two important efforts. The first was to downsize the bloated PLA military academy organization by one-third, either by closing redundant academies outright, or by consolidating campuses on a functional or geographical basis [1]. By 2006, the PLA had just 67 military academies, including both commissioning academies as well as basic military specialty schools (Defense White Paper: China’s National Defense in 2006).

In a second, and perhaps more far-reaching initiative, the PLA also decided to “take advantage of the civilian education system” (yituo guomin jiaoyu) to commission military officers for service in China’s military—a PLA-style Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC).

4. From 2001 on, Shenyang Military Region intended to recruit approximately eight hundred graduates per year from civilian universities around China for military service. (Jiefangjun Bao, December 6, 2000) From 1999 on, the PLA Navy planned to access six hundred students in civilian universities for military service. Jiefangjun Bao, July 7, 1999.

China's National Defense University spectacularly failed the PLA's leadership on even a guesstimation on how the 1991's Iraq invasion would fare for the US.

But if PME is an option for the PLA's NCO corps, then China will still have a long way to go to match the US military.

Try sticking to something you actually know before shooting your mouth.

Har...You Chinese boys should take your own advice. Else we would not have seen so many fantastic claims about Chinese weaponry.

 

[ao333]

Go worry about Viet Defense. The Chinese nor the Americans need you. People of your ethnicity were slaves of the Chinese, the French and now your own commie government. Gambit, your kind are born as slaves and should behave promptly.

 

[Veritas]

Go worry about Viet Defense. The Chinese nor the Americans need you. People of your ethnicity were slaves of the Chinese, the French and now your own commie government. Your kind are born as slaves, Gambit.

I highly doubt that, technically they defeated the French, the Americans and Chinese, if they are slaves.. I do not know what to call the rest of the world.

 

[S10]

Even your pals over at sinodefense says 2 years. The original issue is not about term of obligated service but about whether there is conscription for the PLA, which one of you says 'not', which we know is not true. That is typical of you Chinese boys here, that you are lousy with sourcing your argument.

People at Sinodefence say alot of things, and that website is prone to errors. The difference between them and you, is that sometimes they do make the correction.

But say that it is three years obligation...The first year is usually spent for basic training, basic military education, and basic technical instructions. For the infantry, a three-year commitment would be enough, but for more specialized fields, after that initial year, at least one more year is for a combination of classroom and on-the-job (OJT) training. That leave only one year for the service to recoup its investment? US Navy nuclear propulsion specialists attends up to two years of technical training after that initial first year of service, and the USN has a first-term reenlistment rate of over %50 and over %60 for second-term enlistees.

A significant number of troops that completed their first three years of service go on to become NCOs. In fact, this process is performance based. In addition, those returning to civilian life may get transferred to reserve units. The technical training the military offers are often unavailable to youths from rural areas by other means. In addition, the PLA has a program called "国防生", litterally National Defence Students. Their post-secondary educations are paid for and they fill in more specialized roles.

If it is conscription 'in name only', then why not do away with it? But it is not 'in name only' if one has to report in person to a recruiter. For US, there is only the Selective Service System registration that tell the government statistically how many are available for military service. That registration can be done through the US Postal Service card, not in person to any recruiting office. From that point on, the US military has to compete with the private sector for this person's service. If life in the PLA is so good, then why the gross disparity between the NCOs and the lower enlisted ranks?

Wait wait wait, presenting yourself to the local military recruiter = conscription? In that case, China would have at least millions of conscripts each year.

Defending the country is listed as a responsibility for every Chinese citizen, and this is written into the constitution. The local recruiter will not press you into serving if you are not willing to go. It would not be far-fetched to say that for every person that does not wish to serve, half a dozen are waiting to take his spot. This is especially true in rural areas where life opportunities are limited. Law enforcement agencies have preference for retired soldiers, and private employers look on that very favourably as well.

Even? That implies higher professional military education is an option. For US, higher professional military education is not an option, it is mandatory. The PLA took a harsh look at its own professional military education (PME) after the 1991 first Gulf War. The Soviet model that took roots where political ideology dominated the program was discarded. The PLA's leadership was shocked into recognizing that they must change from a quantity based military to a quality based one and that in order to do so, they must revamp their entire PME system to follow that of the Western model: the US, the UK, and even some Japanese institutions.

Here...

The Jamestown Foundation: Beijing Wary of “Color Revolutions” Sweeping Middle East/North Africa[tt_news]=4043&tx_ttnews[backPid]=197&no_cache=1

You are making the assumption that only NCOs receiving a commission get continuous education regarding their technical field, which is false. Regardless of whether they are sent to military academies or not, they regularly need to learn. There are two types of NCO, specialized and non-specialized (infantry, cooks etc). NCOs are divided into junior, intermidiate and senior grades. It is extremely difficult, although not unheard of, for non-specialized NCOs to get past intermediate grade.

China's National Defense University spectacularly failed the PLA's leadership on even a guesstimation on how the 1991's Iraq invasion would fare for the US.

But if PME is an option for the PLA's NCO corps, then China will still have a long way to go to match the US military.

Last time I recall, it's been 20 years since 1991. Military education is an ever evolving adjustment process. While I did not say that China's military recruitment and education system is perfect, you knowledge of it is meagre to say the least.

Har...You Chinese boys should take your own advice. Else we would not have seen so many fantastic claims about Chinese weaponry.

No more fantastic than your own ignorant opinions on this subject.