New Threat to Pakistan with India,s New K4 SLBM test next month

[Secur]

Thats a quite correctly summed up post. You meant Shaheen-III, right?

Thats Chinese stuff you are seeing gentlemen".

Actually , the reports indicated that the MIRV will be deployed on future Shaheen III as well as the currently in service Shaheen II , I left the former because there hasn't been much information regarding it .

In this regards, the Army Strategic Force Command, which holds the missiles and nukes, announced in 2004 that Pakistan has shown interest in building multiple independently targetable re-entry vehicles (MIRVs). This leads to many analysts and thinkers who are of the view that Pakistan has achieved this capability. Pakistan has developed its MIRVs capability for Shaheen II ballistic missiles and is currently working on Shaheen III ballistic missiles.

Indian ABM System: Options For Pakistan - Analysis Eurasia Review

Pakistani engineers, with help from the Chinese, are also said to be in the advance stages of developing MIRV technology for its missiles. This would allow the military to fit several warheads on the same ballistic missile and then launch them at separate targets.

BBC News - Pakistan's growing nuclear programme

Mansoor Ahmed, lecturer at the Department of Defence and Strategic Studies at Islamabad's Quaid-e-Azam University, said that in addition to maneuverable warheads, multiple independently targetable re-entry vehicles (MIRVs) may be developed to stay ahead of India's "multilayered ballistic-missile defense system" and potential future countermeasures.

"This, coupled with submarine-launched, nuclear-tipped cruise missiles, would ensure the survivability of its nuclear deterrent and enhance the effectiveness of its missile force that can beat any Indian defenses," he said.

When asked about the threat posed by India's anti-ballistic missile (ABM) program, Harsh Pant, reader of international relations at the Defence Studies Department, King's College London, said it depended on the capability India eventually acquired.

Asked whether Pakistan's countermeasures would be effective against such ABM systems, Pant replied, "most definitely."

He said, "According to various reports, Pakistan has been developing MIRV capability for the Shaheen-II ballistic missiles and [the] Shaheen-III missile is under development."

He also explained there was a further danger for India in Pakistan's countermeasure efforts.

"Although the current capability of Pakistani missiles is built around radar seekers, the integration of re-entry vehicles would make these extremely potent and defeat the anti-ballistic missile defense systems. This would be especially true of Indian aircraft carriers that would become extremely vulnerable," he said.

Pakistan Seeks To Counter Indian ABM Defenses | Defense News | defensenews.com

Therein lies the magic word , Mr . Bond .

 

[timetravel]

I think it would be fair to say that Indian Missile and Space Programme is now in the league of US, Russia and China.

India is now a world power in space and missiles.

_____________________________________________________________

on a side note, its been 60 years of violence b/w India and Pakistan.

I know so many Pakistanis and some of they are my very good friends.

When I come to pdf I cannot imagine that though my Pakistani friends are so good, but on PDF its always fighting.

If I was Pakistan PM I would just sign a peace deal with India, declare all LOC as border and then focus on increasing trade and then work towards visa-free travel across the two countries.

My only effort would be to make Pakistan 1/2 trillion economy and have the most brotherly relations with India.

My dream would be to make Pakistan more prosperous then Saudi and other oil producing countries.

I would promote science and maths in Pakistan and ensure that Pakistan has the best technology and scientists in world by 2030. Pakistan and India to become the future Japan and US.

Instead of being an extremist country with Islamic ideology, Pakistan would be a secular democracy with zero role for religion in politics. Pakistan would be the most peaceful, prosperous and ideal place for all religions of world.

 

[Basel]

on a side note, its been 60 years of violence b/w India and Pakistan.
I know so many Pakistanis and some of they are my very good friends.
When I come to pdf I cannot imagine that though my Pakistani friends are so good, but on PDF its always fighting.
If I was Pakistan PM I would just sign a peace deal with India, declare all LOC as border and then focus on increasing trade and then work towards visa-free travel across the two countries.
My only effort would be to make Pakistan 1/2 trillion economy and have the most brotherly relations with India.
My dream would be to make Pakistan more prosperous then Saudi and other oil producing countries.
I would promote science and maths in Pakistan and ensure that Pakistan has the best technology and scientists in world by 2030. Pakistan and India to become the future Japan and US.
Instead of being an extremist country with Islamic ideology, Pakistan would be a secular democracy with zero role for religion in politics. Pakistan would be the most peaceful, prosperous and ideal place for all religions of world.

Why you want to be PM of Pakistan, when from your post you look an Indian, if you want to correct things then go do it in your backyard and don't interfere in our internal matters please.

Do you have any idea of demography of Pakistan and you start making your wish list.

 

[deckingraj]

wat do you mean by coventional missile? if your talking abt cruise missiles existing airdefence systems enough to tackle it...if your talking abt ballistic missile with coventional war head...it doesnt matter if a bm has covn war head ir nuclear..once lauched it triggers nuclear response...as bm are normally used for nuclear delivery... so pakistan would be naive lo launch bm with conventional war head... and abt destroying at ingintion Pakistan missile sites are within arms length..well within reach of system we intend to develop one with exo atmosphere capability.... and abt some missiles eacaping abm...we are already prepared for it when we didn't even have abm...so having abm will definitely give edge to india...as it will protect the metros and other big cities..with huge popln...especially as Pakistan and india nukes are of low yeild to cause more damage generally directed over populous areas

Look as long as we are not going to destroy the missile in boot phase we may escape the full blow of nuke missile but can't escape it..that is an unfortunate reality we will have to digest!!

 

[egodoc222]

Look as long as we are not going to destroy the missile in boot phase we may escape the full blow of nuke missile but can't escape it..that is an unfortunate reality we will have to digest!!

yes! we ur talking abt nuclear exchange mutual damage is inevitable...once we are dragged into it...nthng more is imp than 2nd strike...chance of it hugely increased by abm shield.

 

[IndoUS]

I think it would be fair to say that Indian Missile and Space Programme is now in the league of US, Russia and China.

India is now a world power in space and missiles.

Not quite, we still have to learn a lot if we want to catch up to the likes of US, Russia and the EU, specially in the area of Cryogenic engines and making proper reusable rocket that can bring the cost of space launch down. The successful launch of GSLV will be a good step for India. Missile design and development area is the one place where I give props to DRDO and ISRO they have done and exceptional job in creating world class missile. The one agency I am particularly proud of is the ISRO, even with their limited budget they have developed a world class space program.

 

[The Deterrent]

Actually , the reports indicated that the MIRV will be deployed on future Shaheen III as well as the currently in service Shaheen II , I left the former because there hasn't been much information regarding it .

In this regards, the Army Strategic Force Command, which holds the missiles and nukes, announced in 2004 that Pakistan has shown interest in building multiple independently targetable re-entry vehicles (MIRVs). This leads to many analysts and thinkers who are of the view that Pakistan has achieved this capability. Pakistan has developed its MIRVs capability for Shaheen II ballistic missiles and is currently working on Shaheen III ballistic missiles.

Indian ABM System: Options For Pakistan - Analysis Eurasia Review

Pakistani engineers, with help from the Chinese, are also said to be in the advance stages of developing MIRV technology for its missiles. This would allow the military to fit several warheads on the same ballistic missile and then launch them at separate targets.

BBC News - Pakistan's growing nuclear programme

Mansoor Ahmed, lecturer at the Department of Defence and Strategic Studies at Islamabad's Quaid-e-Azam University, said that in addition to maneuverable warheads, multiple independently targetable re-entry vehicles (MIRVs) may be developed to stay ahead of India's "multilayered ballistic-missile defense system" and potential future countermeasures.

"This, coupled with submarine-launched, nuclear-tipped cruise missiles, would ensure the survivability of its nuclear deterrent and enhance the effectiveness of its missile force that can beat any Indian defenses," he said.

When asked about the threat posed by India's anti-ballistic missile (ABM) program, Harsh Pant, reader of international relations at the Defence Studies Department, King's College London, said it depended on the capability India eventually acquired.

Asked whether Pakistan's countermeasures would be effective against such ABM systems, Pant replied, "most definitely."

He said, "According to various reports, Pakistan has been developing MIRV capability for the Shaheen-II ballistic missiles and [the] Shaheen-III missile is under development."

He also explained there was a further danger for India in Pakistan's countermeasure efforts.

"Although the current capability of Pakistani missiles is built around radar seekers, the integration of re-entry vehicles would make these extremely potent and defeat the anti-ballistic missile defense systems. This would be especially true of Indian aircraft carriers that would become extremely vulnerable," he said.

Pakistan Seeks To Counter Indian ABM Defenses | Defense News | defensenews.com

Therein lies the magic word , Mr . Bond .

I'm afraid these reports are a a bit incorrect. True that MIRVs (or MRVs) are being developed, but neither Shaheen-II nor Shaheen-III will have that capability.

 

[gslv mk3]

@Secur

I would say you are trolling here about 'development time' taken by Indian,missiles .In recent,years we are watching improvements,development period is relatively smaller-for expample PDV,is now ready to be test fired,it was ready wiithin three years.Thats the result of years of R&D.

Now if you take Nirbhays case,we had to develop a miniaturised turbofan here.It was jointly developed by HAL Engine test bed & Research Centre with DRDO.
If you see both these institute have decades of experience in gas turbines-HJE-2500 & GTX 37 was developed in '70s.HAL developed miniature turbojet PTAE 7 for Lakshya.Even then they faced the problem with miniaturisation.

And you claim that your turbofan was indigenously developed?by whom?Which establishment has experience in these in Pakistan?

And why dont your pakistani establishment boast about it as indigenous?I have seen all sort of boasting about indigenous developments-Tactical warheads....

And you are claiming to use BMs against Aircraft carriers?You are equating yourself with China?

Can pakistan make seekers?Anyone?

And what kind of warheads would you use for MRVs-TN?FBF?Have you tested them yet?

@AhaseebA

The RV on Agni III uses 200 kT TNW,and weighs around 400 kg,possible candidate for RV on Agni III/Agni V

@Secur

Indian ABM program had many tests now.Guys start talking about PDV,not PAD,which is ready for flight tests as of now.

By the time Pakistan deploys MaRVs India would have AD 1 & AD 2 ready.

 

[gslv mk3]

@Basel

You were talking about NCW capability Chinese have,I said India has tbe same-high resolution spy sats too.
And unlike Beidou,to make use of Chinese military communication sats,you should have your own ground,infra & secure data links.Do you have them,yet?

If not,its a pure speculation.And claims about ToT is vague.We never recieved any ToT in,our,missile / space program.

 

[gslv mk3]

@Secur

Hey dude...hold on.....

I remember.what you said in the 'Pakistan cruise missile pose a key challenge to India' thread.You said that India cant assume that its ahead in Supersonic Cruise Missiles since Brahmos is a JV.
Yes,thats even when India has already developed a ramjet powered Supersonic LRCM for first flight in 2014 ,for which ramjet engine is already tested,and India already have ramjet in service(Akash one)

And you are making claims about how MIRVed Pakistani BMs would counter Indian ABM?Even when Pakistan has no BMs,that can carry an MIRV?And yet doesnt have a warhead to put in it?

I have even,seen,you making claims about Pakistani developed Supersonic CMs...So much Jingoism?

 

[Secur]

@Secur

I would say you are trolling here about 'development time' taken by Indian,missiles .In recent,years we are watching improvements,development period is relatively smaller-for expample PDV,is now ready to be test fired,it was ready wiithin three years.Thats the result of years of R&D.

Now if you take Nirbhays case,we had to develop a miniaturised turbofan here.It was jointly developed by HAL Engine test bed & Research Centre with DRDO.
If you see both these institute have decades of experience in gas turbines-HJE-2500 & GTX 37 was developed in '70s.HAL developed miniature turbojet PTAE 7 for Lakshya.Even then they faced the problem with miniaturisation.

And you claim that your turbofan was indigenously developed?by whom?Which establishment has experience in these in Pakistan?

And why dont your pakistani establishment boast about it as indigenous?I have seen all sort of boasting about indigenous developments-Tactical warheads....

And you are claiming to use BMs against Aircraft carriers?You are equating yourself with China?

Can pakistan make seekers?Anyone?

And what kind of warheads would you use for MRVs-TN?FBF?Have you tested them yet?

Indian ABM program had many tests now.Guys start talking about PDV,not PAD,which is ready for flight tests as of now.

By the time Pakistan deploys MaRVs India would have AD 1 & AD 2 ready.

I am trolling or the little kids thinking that Pakistan cant do anything are ? I wasn't talking about anything specific here , however its no mystery and no secret that Indian defense projects are generally delayed with cost overruns , the Tejas is one fine example if you want to go that route . Surely , we have been watching improvements due to the of state of economy and foreign JV , I am not denying but the notion that Pakistan will not have anything to counter the missile shield doesn't sit fine with me . Because Islamabad can deploy a lot of low cost countermeasure to deceive/beat/overwhelm the missile defense system , I posted links for confirmation of that thing about the vulnerability of ABM and hence their low effectiveness . I said that it would take a decade at least before the shield gets operational for two reasons , it hasn't have many tests until now ( only 6 with 2 failures - not enough ) and its still under development and second , it took a really large time for the Soviet/Russia and U.S to develop the same thing . Second even after it goes operational , it would still years before it is significantly deployed , you cant pull this one off in a short time , because yes it required decades for the other countries ( US , Soviet/Russia ) to implement the same " shield " , read a little about the operational history of comparable ABM systems . Islamabad has been working on MIRV's since 2004 ( see above posts ) and can surely do it , before the shield becomes a threat for its nuclear arsenal , for now it can concentrate on other countermeasures . If that is understandable , that is fine .

Yes , the establishment/military/Govt claim the seekers and the turbofan was indigenously developed in the country . You know how many missiles have we developed and deployed until now and you still question the " seeker " part ? The information about defense projects/organization isn't released here and guarded as hell so what I can rely on , is the official statement . Do you have no evidence that they were imported from outside in the meantime to prove me wrong here ? I am not claiming anything , you are now making things up and trying to answer them yourself . I suggest you tag the people who are saying that and ask them on what basis , is the claim being made , not me . What Pakistani BM's can carry MaRV or MIRV ? Seriously you do not know about Shaheen series ?

@Secur

Hey dude...hold on.....

I remember.what you said in the 'Pakistan cruise missile pose a key challenge to India' thread.You said that India cant assume that its ahead in Supersonic Cruise Missiles since Brahmos is a JV.
Yes,thats even when India has already developed a ramjet powered Supersonic LRCM for first flight in 2014 ,for which ramjet engine is already tested,and India already have ramjet in service(Akash one)

And you are making claims about how MIRVed Pakistani BMs would counter Indian ABM?Even when Pakistan has no BMs,that can carry an MIRV?And yet doesnt have a warhead to put in it?

I have even,seen,you making claims about Pakistani developed Supersonic CMs...So much Jingoism?

I remember also saying that its one thing to have a project planned/under deployment/being considered and the next to have it operational and well you have none in the second category , anything to dispute here ? . In our case , we have two cruise missiles operational , I will really not repeat all that again . You know what I said about " ability translating into capability " well . I am not making any current claims regarding Pakistan MIRV's being operational just that there is a strong indication going by certain reports that they have in development for a long time now . Looking how Islamabad hasn't tested anything new as of yet , it makes sense . You didn't think that the missile technology and its research has stalled in Pakistan after Shaheen II BM's and the new Raad and Babur CM's , now did you ? The multiple warheads can be carried on the Shaheen series just fine with a new one , under development . Again , its all estimation at this point , you will only know about what missiles are getting what when they tested , not before . The point is that MIRV can be developed and deployed far more quickly than the Anti Ballistic Shield . The Pakistanis never knew about Babur until one day they woke up and saw it on the T.V . This is the Iron curtain we are talking about here .

Again , tag the member who made that claim , I am not responsible for what everyone is saying around here about anything . Otherwise , let me see the post where I made the claim if you have seen it . Go ahead , just point it out . Which post of mine says that ?

I'm afraid these reports are a a bit incorrect. True that MIRVs (or MRVs) are being developed, but neither Shaheen-II nor Shaheen-III will have that capability.

The reports are vague , I know , but they confirm the MIRV thing . What do you mean to say ? What other missiles are capable of carrying multiple warheads ?

 

[gslv mk3]

@Secur

Indian defense projects are generaly delayed?Is that a joke
Faster,due to JVs?Another big joke?
2 failures of ABM,was it the ABM that failed?or the target missile?
ABM is only for a few cities & would be inducted after a few tests of PDV.And again,US & Russia were countering ICBMs,we are countering SRBMs here-things are much easy aint it?

You should understand that we were fourth country to develop an ABM,and system had all succesful tests.

And check @AhaseebA s post on MIRVs & Shaheen.Which RV would you use?What would be the yield?How many would a Shaheen carry?what sort of warhead?TNW?FBF?

And yes,your government,can,make 'claims'-like mushys statement on 'Pakistans space technology' & Sabar Mubarakmunds jokes.
Meanwhile the world knows that these systems ( turbofans & Seekers ) are built with significant foreign,help
No,one would believe that you made a miniature Turbofan in first attempt
Even India,with a much larger R&D base was unable to develop seekers,for ICBMs( We make one for ABMs though )
No wonder why your government keep these a secret.

 

[Secur]

@Secur
ABM is only for a few cities & would be inducted after a few tests of PDV.And again,US & Russia were countering ICBMs,we are countering SRBMs here-things are much easy aint it?

You should understand that we were fourth country to develop an ABM,and system had all succesful tests.

And check @AhaseebA s post on MIRVs & Shaheen.Which RV would you use?What would be the yield?How many would a Shaheen carry?what sort of warhead?TNW?FBF?

And yes,your government,can,make 'claims'-like mushys statement on 'Pakistans space technology' & Sabar Mubarakmunds jokes.
Meanwhile the world knows that these systems ( turbofans & Seekers ) are built with significant foreign,help
No,one would believe that you made a miniature Turbofan in first attempt
Even India,with a much larger R&D base was unable to develop seekers,for ICBMs( We make one for ABMs though )
No wonder why your government keep these a secret.

Yes they are usually delayed , want me to do a list ? I said the economy too , why didn't you focus on that ? Two tests failed to hit the mark , are you disputing that too ? The equation remains the same because they also had advanced missile technology too which we are only developing today . Keep in mind that you are still developing the shield , it will take time to get operational and ready and then get deployed . Savvy ? Please , leave that " we can do much better than the world powers " who do not have much faith in their ABM systems even today , with billions poured in and decades of R&D with brilliant pebbles to airborne lasers planned and you are declaring yourself " successful " with only a handful of tests and nowhere near getting them operational .

You want specific details for the MIRV , are you even serious ? @AhaseebA would himself have no answers to his own questions or to yours because of the general secrecy around defense projects here so its nearly impossible to know such details , which you are asking as if they usually available in public domain . So all that remains to be seen in the future , the RV , the yield , type and the numbers , but rest assured when they test it , you will know about it . But then you will go all " Chinese , Chinese " and " fake " and " copy " and what-not because its beyond your comprehension that Pakistan can develop anything by herself - a mentality that a lot of members have " showcased " in the previous pages . How do you expect us to have this information right at the moment if I may know ? I just said that there are reports of MIRV development and possibly a few new missiles or upgrading the previous ones by several reports , I posted them . Beyond that , SFC will come with a counter whenever the shield gets operational which is a decade at least .

No wonder , you Indians are always caught by surprise be it Raad or Babur or Nasr . Because you do not want to believe the capability of the adversary and keep overestimating themselves . I still see you haven't tagged the members whom questions , you were trying to get answered by me , why is that ?

 

[gslv mk3]

@Secur

Nice read aint it,there was another claim about WS500 Chinese turbofan too.
Nice reading about Babur and Ra'ad/H2/H4 etc


And you were claiming that 'Indians are not ahead in Supersonic CM,coz brahmos was an official JV'.
I have provided you with an info of an underdevelopment program,for which even the testfiring is less than,one year away,not about 'ability or capability ' of Indians to develop a Supersonic CM.

And about the MIRV,what you have is 'vague data' with no reference to a 'timeline'.And the same ABM have been in development for a decade,and is getting better ( read PDV )

Well you made the,claim 'you can see something in similar lines soon in Pakistan' in a thread about Brahmos.

Yes they are usually delayed , want me to do a list ? I said the economy too , why didn't you focus on that ? Two tests failed to hit the mark , are you disputing that too ? The equation remains the same because they also had advanced missile technology too which we are only developing today . Keep in mind that you are still developing the shield , it will take time to get operational and ready and then get deployed . Savvy ? Please , leave that " we can do much better than the world powers " who do not have much faith in their ABM systems even today , with billions poured in and decades of R&D with brilliant pebbles to airborne lasers planned and you are declaring yourself " successful " with only a handful of tests and nowhere near getting them operational .

You want specific details for the MIRV , are you even serious ? @AhaseebA would himself have no answers to his own questions or to yours because of the general secrecy around defense projects here so its nearly impossible to know such details , which you are asking as if they usually available in public domain . So all that remains to be seen in the future , the RV , the yield , type and the numbers , but rest assured when they test it , you will know about it . But then you will go all " Chinese , Chinese " and " fake " and " copy " and what-not because its beyond your comprehension that Pakistan can develop anything by herself - a mentality that a lot of members have " showcased " in the previous pages . How do you expect us to have this information right at the moment if I may know ? I just said that there are reports of MIRV development and possibly a few new missiles or upgrading the previous ones by several reports , I posted them . Beyond that , SFC will come with a counter whenever the shield gets operational which is a decade at least .

No wonder , you Indians are always caught by surprise be it Raad or Babur or Nasr . Because you do not want to believe the capability of the adversary and keep overestimating themselves . I still see you haven't tagged the members whom questions , you were trying to get answered by me , why is that ?

Many of them were first time / after a long time,attempts like LCA.And economy?You need years of experience and expertise,not just the money.Check in how many years Agni V,IV & pdv were developed.

Indians 'shocked ' by Nasr.That was a nice joke.
And who said we can do much better than 'other world powers'?I said we were fourth in this,and we were looking to intercept SRBMs and not ICBMs.

And you have nothing to claim about turbofans?Hand ful of yest for ABM,we would,see after pdv test.

And you are really deluding yourself.Whats the payload Shaheen can carry?Have pakistan developed TNs that weighless than FBFs,and can be used on MIRV?

Please,when people make empty claims,they are easily refuted.The same case with 'indivenous turbofans'.

 

[Secur]

@gslv mk3 Just a theory like a dozen others with no concrete evidence and mere guesses and estimations . Not the first one I have read anyways and well that one didn't even have a link , let alone be credible in any way .

The problem with you boys is the same old mentality that Pakistan cant do anything so despite I can agree that you have superior technology in supersonic CM's due to a couple of factors but they are a long time from going operational ( Nirbhay was slated to be tested a couple months ago ) , you cant do the same for any Pakistani project . So even though we can applaud for Indian Mars mission , you cant really appreciate anything coming out of Pakistan , talking generally .

Yes we have only a vague data because for the love of all that is holy , its a top secret project and information on Pakistani projects is scarce let alone nuclear/missile related ones . The world didn't know that we were going to test a cruise missile but yet we did , didn't we ? In this case , you at least have vague reports but there , it was complete radio silence until the day it was tested . The same ABM is a decade or two from going operational , you seem to have no idea of complexity of such a project .

Then you got it wrong . I merely said that the R&D hasn't stalled in the country and we will continue to develop newer cruise missiles . Where did I say that Pakistan has developed Supersonic CM's as you previously claimed ?