New Threat to Pakistan with India,s New K4 SLBM test next month

[faithfulguy]

BS.

Anti ship missile do not target the edge of ship that if they miss the target by a meter, it will miss the ship. It will hit the ship even though they miss the target the by 10 to 20 meter as they are targeted at the middle of the ship about 1 to 2 meter of water level.

For surface to surface missile CEP do not matter much if they are equipped with Nuclear weapon. How ever DRDO is making the missile which can be targeted at a target with conventional role. So CEP matters a lot for us. We are Successful in making that.

Give it a rest. My post was in response to faithful guy's post in which he stated that even cruise missile miss by 1 meter, it will fail to hot the ship.

Its important to learn from what @gambit has to say about logic, even if you don't know the science behind it. Also, I was not talking about cruise missile hitting a none mobile target. And I was talking about if a anti ship missile miss the ship by 1 meter, it will fail to hit the ship. Now @gambit has explained to you in a detail post on how a radar sees a ship and at what circumstance it would fail. So just take his post for what it is. And that brahmos, as an anti-ship missile, that its accuracy is not generally measure by CEP, but by the ability of its radar to measure the center of ship and also its ability to avoid the counter measurements. @gambit, can you explain how a missile possesses ability to avoid counter measurement. Please limit the discussion to anti-ship cruise missile of Brahmos type against counter measurements on a modern destroyer like a aegis destroyer like aleigh burke or a type 45 destroyer that has some stealth feature.

 

[Secur]

@gslv mk3 No , I was discussing a lot of relatively low cost countermeasures which Pakistan can deploy like chaffs and decoys . The MIRV are actually the higher end of the lot , which have rendered the missile shields of both Soviet/Russian and US next to useless , since the current ABM cant counter that . There are reports by think tanks how both nations are developing MIRV to be deployed on future missiles . Thats is where I was hinting , when a member said how Pakistan has no answer to this shield . For one , the ABM you are developing will take years if not decades to go operational because it only have had a few tests until now . Taking the speed of the usual Indian projects and the progress of world power's shield into account . Next thing , it will again take years before it is significantly deployed . I was explaining to them , how Pakistan will develop a counter in the meantime . As usual , I do not have the technical aspects accurately to answer or even give an estimation to your question . Because you know the secrecy of our projects , we never knew about Babur cruise missile until the day it was tested for the first time . But the most likely candidate is Shaheen II @AhaseebA .

 

[Hulk]

I got what you meant but the cost just gets higher and higher for India while still remaining in a tolerable amount for Islamabad , not to mention if Pakistanis are able to deploy the MIRV on their missiles quickly that will render the shield well ineffective and if I am not exaggerating a bit , almost useless . The ABM's have a particular weakness against the Multiple Independent Reentry Target Vehicles . I can post stuff , I read sometime ago about it . Cmon you have a whole China to counter conventionally . Start not to oversimplify things

Pakistan does not have capability to develop MIRV nor it has budget. Unless China helps, you are not getting MIRV till another decade.

 

[Secur]

Pakistan does not have capability to develop MIRV nor it has budget. Unless China helps, you are not getting MIRV till another decade.

Ran out of arguments , have we ? Pakistan never had the capability to develop cruise missiles too - now it has two indigenous operational ones while the adversary doesn't even have one - JV's do not count here . The seeker technology comes directly from the Kremlin for a few of your missiles . I know the usual Indian thinking of how we cant do anything , but yet we somehow do it - minus the usual excuse or rationalization that Chinese helped . Prepare to be surprised again too because a lot of projects are on the cards and the economy of my country wont remain the same forever .

 

[Slav Defence]

Pakistan does not have capability to develop MIRV nor it has budget. Unless China helps, you are not getting MIRV till another decade.

This is the problem of Indian thinking,they always underestimate Pakistan's potential.Who would have thought that Pakistan will one day develop series of Ballistic missiles from short range to medium and so on with capability of surface to surface strikes and so on. @Secur is right at this point,despite of this fact that we have economical crisis and other problems, Pakistan has always faced such challenges bravely,and inshallah,we will be successful if Allah wills.
This is the difference between Americans and Indians...that is,Americans never underestimate their opponents in game of regional hegemoney.

 

[Guynextdoor2]

An aera which pakistanis claimed to superior in is completely being dominated by india news vitually every few months from ICMB and new hypersonic SLBM the indians are pulling out some real trees lately.

What wil the Pakistanis response be to this NEW increased nuclear threat

Indiams are claiming zero CEP with the new missles fresh fromthe space success to mars indian rockettechnology is paying huge dividends to their military

I think the problem is with the claim...in tech we were always leading

 

[Basel]

US fear china?????!!!!!!!!!


Even Vietnam do not fear.What China can do is to hype its weapon which is nothing but a Junk. China gets the customer like you guys.

Which K4 type of Missile does china have???

Yes they do, because China may not be a super power yet but it is on the path of becoming one and if they don't fear China then why India have become so important to them and why major shift in their strategy? why they are studying about them? they don't see India as super power like USSR but surely they think China is going to take its position in future which is vacant now.

 

[Basel]

NCW?Ever heard of Indian navys GSAT 7?Any idea about it?

Whatever India has its not of our concern until it become a threat, further do u know what kind of stuff we have or we will have from friendly countries in case of conflict with India?

India is very strong conventionally and they have all world support and access to tech with TOT too, it also have good growing economy which is admirable, but the special attention India gets is not just because they are so special or out of this world.

Rise of China is also a very huge factor for this special treatment from world power players. Any country which can help them to contain China now or in future they will make him ally. If in future India become enough powerful like USSR and western powers superiority is threatened then India will also face same issued as China or Russia.

 

[Hulk]

Ran out of arguments , have we ? Pakistan never had the capability to develop cruise missiles too - now it has two indigenous operational ones while the adversary doesn't even have one - JV's do not count here . The seeker technology comes directly from the Kremlin for a few of your missiles . I know the usual Indian thinking of how we cant do anything , but yet we somehow do it - minus the usual excuse or rationalization that Chinese helped . Prepare to be surprised again too because a lot of projects are on the cards and the economy of my country wont remain the same forever .

With due regards, I do not think Pakistan has research base or money to creare something like MIRV. As per cruise missile, personally I feel you got helped, the only reason I feel is how much Pakistan has shown developments outside defence. Now before you misunderstand me I have similar view on India, they are also getting help by Russia, Israel and US. R&D results have following factors 1) Investment 2) knowledge gained from previous R&D 3) intellience level of scientist 4) Help recieved 5) Manufacturing base.

Now 1, 2 & 5 in my opinion Pakistan lacks. Had they been super intelligent it would reflect everywhere. I think they are getting help. This is logically making sense, someone decided to give them ballistic missiles, they suddenly got few but then development stopped. Same thing with cruise missile. You see thins appearing suddenly. Its not the same regular way where you are seen building testing fixing testing fixing and after years effort getting it right. Thats normal not sudden news about capability. Its totally my view and I explained my logic.

 

[The Deterrent]

@gslv mk3 No , I was discussing a lot of relatively low cost countermeasures which Pakistan can deploy like chaffs and decoys . The MIRV are actually the higher end of the lot , which have rendered the missile shields of both Soviet/Russian and US next to useless , since the current ABM cant counter that . There are reports by think tanks how both nations are developing MIRV to be deployed on future missiles . Thats is where I was hinting , when a member said how Pakistan has no answer to this shield . For one , the ABM you are developing will take years if not decades to go operational because it only have had a few tests until now . Taking the speed of the usual Indian projects and the progress of world power's shield into account . Next thing , it will again take years before it is significantly deployed . I was explaining to them , how Pakistan will develop a counter in the meantime . As usual , I do not have the technical aspects accurately to answer or even give an estimation to your question . Because you know the secrecy of our projects , we never knew about Babur cruise missile until the day it was tested for the first time . But the most likely candidate is Shaheen II @AhaseebA .

Thats a quite correctly summed up post. You meant Shaheen-III, right?

Pakistan does not have capability to develop MIRV nor it has budget. Unless China helps, you are not getting MIRV till another decade.

Thats some really confident talk there..

I wonder what will be the reaction of Indian members after Pakistan demonstrates something like that. Some would call it a fake show, others would undermine it by its looks...but most would just sit back, try to look relaxed and say "Thats Chinese stuff you are seeing, gentlemen".

 

[Secur]

With due regards, I do not think Pakistan has research base or money to creare something like MIRV. As per cruise missile, personally I feel you got helped, the only reason I feel is how much Pakistan has shown developments outside defence. Now before you misunderstand me I have similar view on India, they are also getting help by Russia, Israel and US. R&D results have following factors 1) Investment 2) knowledge gained from previous R&D 3) intellience level of scientist 4) Help recieved 5) Manufacturing base.

Now 1, 2 & 5 in my opinion Pakistan lacks. Had they been super intelligent it would reflect everywhere. I think they are getting help. This is logically making sense, someone decided to give them ballistic missiles, they suddenly got few but then development stopped. Same thing with cruise missile. You see thins appearing suddenly. Its not the same regular way where you are seen building testing fixing testing fixing and after years effort getting it right. Thats normal not sudden news about capability. Its totally my view and I explained my logic.

With all due respect , you seem to be ignorant of the research base or the R&D happening in Pakistan , because first I see the usual denial and then I see the false claim and the Chinese help rationalization . There's nothing else to consider . If we can maintain an arsenal of 120 warheads and hundreds of nuclear capable missiles , then rest assured that we have the base and money to develop MIRV's too . Where would the help have come from ? What do you know about the Pakistani defense projects even except the usual " Chinese , Chinese " rants ?

The defense sector specially the nuclear deterrent can get all the money , it wants , the next points are the ones you cant really know anything about to point it out . There's no super intelligent thing here after all , because we usually have thrived on smart working , improvisation and making whatever we can make out of " extremely limited " budget . Yeah , someone did give us M11 missiles but that was in the 90's . Tell me what year it is today and how many missiles have we developed , tested and inducted lately . You see things appearing suddenly because unlike India , our defense projects are not that open and not much information is released . This is how things appear to " come out of thin air " unlike your country where a constant stream of information is available for the public . Why and how , it is another debate for another thread .

 

[The Deterrent]

With due regards, I do not think Pakistan has research base or money to creare something like MIRV. As per cruise missile, personally I feel you got helped, the only reason I feel is how much Pakistan has shown developments outside defence. Now before you misunderstand me I have similar view on India, they are also getting help by Russia, Israel and US. R&D results have following factors 1) Investment 2) knowledge gained from previous R&D 3) intellience level of scientist 4) Help recieved 5) Manufacturing base.

Now 1, 2 & 5 in my opinion Pakistan lacks. Had they been super intelligent it would reflect everywhere. I think they are getting help. This is logically making sense, someone decided to give them ballistic missiles, they suddenly got few but then development stopped. Same thing with cruise missile. You see thins appearing suddenly. Its not the same regular way where you are seen building testing fixing testing fixing and after years effort getting it right. Thats normal not sudden news about capability. Its totally my view and I explained my logic.

I think that you are making some assumptions which bring you to this conclusion of yours. I'll try to point them out:

1. Money:
Considering today's latest MIRVs as a comparison for judging Pakistan's abilities is a bit unfair. The first attempt from any side (Indian or Pakistani), would be the smallest set of RVs (3) with little or none independent guidance. It is not that difficult to achieve, nor it requires enormous funding. But it does satisfy the purpose i.e. create difficulty for the BMD.

2. Research Base:
Both NESCOM and NDC have established high standard industrial facilities for developing and producing ballistic missile systems. Its been 14 years since we tested our first solid-fueled BM. Assuming that the R&D process has suffered stagnation is a massive underestimation.
Secondly, these organizations are not allowed to have their presence felt in the media. Thats because of the Military, who oversees them and is paranoid about the security and secrecy of the programme. Just because our organizations don't get advertised in the media, doesn't means that the research base does not exist.

3. Development outside Defence:
Pakistan has a poor economy, and a strong technological base hasn't been established yet here, as compared to India. The only top-grade research facilities in Pakistan belong to these organizations, directly or indirectly...simply because the military funds the programme. Therefore you don't get to see much development outside the military.

4. Sudden Developments:
Again, since the organizations do not release any information about the missile systems prior to actual flight tests, you assume that no R&D was done (or very little). Both the missiles of the Shaheen series had been in development for about 4-5 years, and similar is the case with Shaheen-III. Regarding that testing-fixing-testing thing, it is done, except that all tests are reported successes but the failed ones are done again to resolve the issue.
Similarly development never "stopped". Shaheen-II would've been enough if India hadn't started on the ABM program (but the design would need replacement eventually). Modernized missiles are being developed to counter the evolving threats.

 

[Hulk]

Thats a quite correctly summed up post. You meant Shaheen-III, right?



Thats some really confident talk there..

I wonder what will be the reaction of Indian members after Pakistan demonstrates something like that. Some would call it a fake show, others would undermine it by its looks...but most would just sit back, try to look relaxed and say "Thats Chinese stuff you are seeing, gentlemen".

The donar thinks its OK to give cruise missile technology but not MIRV. They will like to keep you in check.

 

[The Deterrent]

The donar thinks its OK to give cruise missile technology but not MIRV. They will like to keep you in check.

In that case I "think" that in near future, you'll start "thinking" that the donor "thinks" that now they don't "like" to keep us in check.

 

[farhan_9909]

I believe the MIRV's test might be done within the next 1-2 or max 3 years.

Considering that the GDP is all set to increase and so does the Defence budget

R&D will increase and so does more and more goodies.