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New Delhi will only discuss Pakistan-controlled Kashmir, says Indian envoy

I meant 'mischievous' in a playful sense, not as a wicked trait.



This is not right of you. Which fact have I twisted?



There have been elections on the Indian administered side for fifty years now. You might like to look up the records for the Pakistan side. If I put the facts before you, you seem to be in the frame of mind to deduce that some distortion is taking place, even before looking at the facts.



"...within the people of Kashmir"? How do you define Kashmir? According to your own statement, you have "...been to furthest parts of Azad Kashmir", and presumably not through Gilgit-Baltistan, certainly not through Jammu, or the Vale, or Ladakh. I have been through Jammu, and the Vale, but not through Ladakh. I question your conclusion that there is unrest within the people of Kashmir regarding status quo, since it is very doubtful that either Mirpur or Gilgit-Baltistan wants some different kind of arrangement from what they have at present. It simply doesn't make sense to conclude that the inhabitants wish to be under the legislative and administrative control of the majority in the Vale. No politician in Indian administered Kashmir distinguishes "Kashmir", whatever you mean by that term, as an independent entity.

Regarding the number of military and para-military forces, and the claim of occupation, how is it that the similar number of forces on the Pakistan side do not make them occupiers of their occupied portion of Kashmir? And are you aware of the actual number of soldiers posted in Kashmir by the Indian Army? If not, what do you mean by "large numbers"?



No offence, but you should look up the records of past transactions before rushing to share your (valuable) opinion. I was deeply involved in defence matters in two phases in the past, and have been teaching, as a full professor in a law university, for the last three years. I hope that settles your lingering doubts about my situation.



I never said that Jammu Muslims, the inhabitants of western Jammu in my note, were pro-Dogra; it seems that you have a problem comprehending any but the simplest prose passages.

You did not get a reply to your post, because I decided that it was a waste of time. The posts were of uniformly poor quality, and I really don't see any value in them. Sorry.
By Kashmir I mean IOK+Azad Kashmir and if you think that GB equals Kashmir than I am sorry to say that your view of Kashmir is very ancient and and you need to revisit your opinion in line with the ground realities and demographics of the region.

By election I mean before partition as it can be yardstick of real wishes of the people. Do you really think that the people have rested their confidence on Indian Govt by taking part in elections under Indian Authorities?

I think the numbers are varying depending upon the condition of law and order but large enough to enforce the continuation of occupation and cancel out any resistance effort.

I would love to read more about the accounts of your involvement in defense matters if it's not of sensitive nature.
 
I suggest that you go through the published data on which language was spoken in what percentages in which areas. It is available. It is because of these quibbles that I do not wish to encourage your trolling.



And where did I deny that? It is recorded that west Jammu had a larger concentration of Muslims, which explains my wording. If, instead of trying to be clever, you were to concentrate on the argument, there would be some point in discussing the matter. As it is, a smart kid trying to show the forum that he is a smart kid is a complete waste of time for me.



There are Burashaski speakers in Srinagar. So what?

Please DO NOT waste my time any more.
Atleast now you partially accept the fact that there are perhaps more similarities between a region that was sawed in half well its a start :D

By Kashmir I mean IOK+Azad Kashmir and if you think that GB equals Kashmir than I am sorry to say that your view of Kashmir is very ancient and and you need to revisit your opinion in line with the ground realities and demographics of the region.

By election I mean before partition as it can be yardstick of real wishes of the people. Do you really think that the people have rested their confidence on Indian Govt by taking part in elections under Indian Authorities?

I think the numbers are varying depending upon the condition of law and order but large enough to enforce the continuation of occupation and cancel out any resistance effort.

I would love to read more about the accounts of your involvement in defense matters if it's not of sensitive nature.
GB was part of Dogra state of Jammu and Kashmir thats why its also considered as disputed despite being totally different from Kashmir ethnically and historically
 
By Kashmir I mean IOK+Azad Kashmir and if you think that GB equals Kashmir than I am sorry to say that your view of Kashmir is very ancient and and you need to revisit your opinion in line with the ground realities and demographics of the region.

By election I mean before partition as it can be yardstick of real wishes of the people. Do you really think that the people have rested their confidence on Indian Govt by taking part in elections under Indian Authorities?

I think the numbers are varying depending upon the condition of law and order but large enough to enforce the continuation of occupation and cancel out any resistance effort.

I would love to read more about the accounts of your involvement in defense matters if it's not of sensitive nature.

Regarding my involvement in defence matters, they are on record within this forum. Kindly look up the archives. I cannot repeat myself every three to six months.

Regarding the numbers, the question of occupation does not arise; even according to the UN Resolution, India was the power authorised to maintain troops in Kashmir, and to maintain law and order; it was Pakistan that was asked to withdraw all armed personnel, and refused, leading to the impasse.

Regarding elections, the main political force in the Vale was the National Conference, and that was directly involved in the resistance to the invaders who were marching towards Srinagar. If they were for accession to India, and the Vale represented the bulk of the population, all subsequent elections were simple endorsements of the sentiment. Why did Pakistan not even attempt to hold elections in the parts that she had occupied?

Regarding your definition of Kashmir, each part was acquired separately, over a period of one hundred years, or slightly more, considering the Dogra conquests while still part of the Sikh Empire, and their acquisitions after the Treaties of Lahore and Amritsar, one week apart. There was nothing in common between them except their rule by the former Dogra Raja of Jammu who went on to become the Maharaja of Jammu and Kashmir. So claiming that there was any homogeneity, especially in view of British rule of Dogra-conquered territory in Gilgit-Baltistan from 1877 onwards, is meaningless. There was no homogeneous land of Kashmir, only disparate fragments, and these fragments displayed their own radically different points of view.

If the legality is to be maintained, then asking for anything beyond the original terms of the UN Resolution, which was itself a compromise on the original terms laid down by the India Independence Act, is simply out of court.
 
Atleast now you partially accept the fact that there are perhaps more similarities between a region that was sawed in half well its a start :D


GB was part of Dogra state of Jammu and Kashmir thats why its also considered as disputed despite being totally different from Kashmir ethnically and historically
You are right, GB was part of Dogra rule but very different from ethnic Kashmir. This division is evident from the fact that it was never merged with Azad Kashimir.
 
You are right, GB was part of Dogra rule but very different from ethnic Kashmir. This division is evident from the fact that it was never merged with Azad Kashimir.
Actually GB people dont even want to be associated with Kashmir unlike people in Azad Kashmir who want the alienation of land law to remain an absolute najority of GB,istanis want to be completely merged as 5th province of Pakistan
 
Regarding my involvement in defence matters, they are on record within this forum. Kindly look up the archives. I cannot repeat myself every three to six months.

Regarding the numbers, the question of occupation does not arise; even according to the UN Resolution, India was the power authorised to maintain troops in Kashmir, and to maintain law and order; it was Pakistan that was asked to withdraw all armed personnel, and refused, leading to the impasse.

Regarding elections, the main political force in the Vale was the National Conference, and that was directly involved in the resistance to the invaders who were marching towards Srinagar. If they were for accession to India, and the Vale represented the bulk of the population, all subsequent elections were simple endorsements of the sentiment. Why did Pakistan not even attempt to hold elections in the parts that she had occupied?

Regarding your definition of Kashmir, each part was acquired separately, over a period of one hundred years, or slightly more, considering the Dogra conquests while still part of the Sikh Empire, and their acquisitions after the Treaties of Lahore and Amritsar, one week apart. There was nothing in common between them except their rule by the former Dogra Raja of Jammu who went on to become the Maharaja of Jammu and Kashmir. So claiming that there was any homogeneity, especially in view of British rule of Dogra-conquered territory in Gilgit-Baltistan from 1877 onwards, is meaningless. There was no homogeneous land of Kashmir, only disparate fragments, and these fragments displayed their own radically different points of view.

If the legality is to be maintained, then asking for anything beyond the original terms of the UN Resolution, which was itself a compromise on the original terms laid down by the India Independence Act, is simply out of court.
This is hypocritical and equivalent to handing over the lands under our control to India.
This is where i say you twist facts to prove your point.
How can NC be termed as main political force when there was no election data to back up.
If there are no elections held in Azad Kashmir then how do they fill up their legislative assemblies and choose a Prime Minister?
Whatever definition you do that suits you but the fact is it will remain a Muslim majority area and brings us to the point where we started the discussion that on the basis of partition it should remain independent or align with Pakistan. India is no where to be found in that picture that's why i call your stance in UN for Pakistan to vacate Kashmir as absurd and hypocritical.

Actually GB people dont even want to be associated with Kashmir unlike people in Azad Kashmir who want the alienation of land law to remain an absolute najority of GB,istanis want to be completely merged as 5th province of Pakistan
Yet there are people sitting in Delhi who think that they have a real shot at this region due to Shia population and they can connect India directly with Afghanistan if ever a plebiscite was held.
 
This is hypocritical and equivalent to handing over the lands under our control to India.
This is where i say you twist facts to prove your point.
How can NC be termed as main political force when there was no election data to back up.
If there are no elections held in Azad Kashmir then how do they fill up their legislative assemblies and choose a Prime Minister?
Whatever definition you do that suits you but the fact is it will remain a Muslim majority area and brings us to the point where we started the discussion that on the basis of partition it should remain independent or align with Pakistan. India is no where to be found in that picture that's why i call your stance in UN for Pakistan to vacate Kashmir as absurd and hypocritical.


Yet there are people sitting in Delhi who think that they have a real shot at this region due to Shia population and they can connect India directly with Afghanistan if ever a plebiscite was held.
Look aliens campaigning in my town :taz:
hqdefault.jpg
 
This is hypocritical and equivalent to handing over the lands under our control to India.
This is where i say you twist facts to prove your point.
How can NC be termed as main political force when there was no election data to back up.
If there are no elections held in Azad Kashmir then how do they fill up their legislative assemblies and choose a Prime Minister?
Whatever definition you do that suits you but the fact is it will remain a Muslim majority area and brings us to the point where we started the discussion that on the basis of partition it should remain independent or align with Pakistan. India is no where to be found in that picture that's why i call your stance in UN for Pakistan to vacate Kashmir as absurd and hypocritical.

You should in fact hand over the lands under your control to India, unless you argue that main force is the basis for decisions on which part of the land is to belong to whom. That might not be the best argument to use, considering the state of Pakistan at present.

Which fact have I twisted? You said this earlier, I asked you earlier, and you did not reply. I ask you again, which fact have I twisted?

About the National Conference being the main political force, there is enough reason to think that it was. There was no election data anywhere else; how was the Muslim Conference the main political base in Mirpur? In the Vale, the National Conference were able to mobilise the people, and did so, not just in 1947 but in 1965 as well. NC volunteers were prepared to resist the raiders through force of arms and took to patrolling the streets in anticipation. In case you think that this was not sufficient, they won the elections in which Mohammed Abdullah came to power, not one, presumably, in which any unseen hand might be thought to have functioned.

You say that there was democracy in Azad Kashmir, and that is how they filled their legislature and appointed a Prime Minister. Are you addressing an illiterate? From 1947/49 until 1970, there was no representative government in Azad Kashmir; so much for the use of the term Azad. A quote from the only source that is likely to be familiar to this audience:

Elections were held to the 49-seat Legislative Assembly of Azad Kashmir on July 11 to the eighth Legislative Assembly since 1970 (seventh since 1974 when Pakistan granted the region a parliamentary system with adult franchise).Azad Kashmir is categorised as an autonomous region. But critics claim titles such as Prime Minister and President for the region's elected political leadership are misleading as candidates are required to sign an affidavit of allegiance to Kashmir's accession to Pakistan.

Who is the fact-twisting hypocrite, deliberately telling a lie to make a point?

If Muslim majority was to have been the basis, if the Two Nation Theory was to have been the basis, then we would still have a Pakistan in two segments. 1971 effectively destroyed the myth of a Muslim majority area belonging by prescriptive right to Pakistan; it doesn't.

It was, in fact, not the basis. The princely states were not governed by this principle; perhaps you should look up the original India Independence Act, since much of your argument is based on a specious and superficial knowledge of the facts. The princely states were given their independence, and warned that Great Britain would not recognise any of them as Dominions, and expected each of them to join either of the two Dominions of India or Pakistan, but subject to continguity. That is why Kalat was refused accession to India by India, since there was no contiguity. That, too, governed the situation in Hyderabad, and in Junagadh.

You might argue that it should at least be an independent entity and not part of India at all. That too fails; Kashmir was never offered independent existence. The ruler had two choices and only two: Pakistan or India. And it was the ruler who had the choice.

India was the Maharaja's choice and Sheikh Abdullah's choice, and it was their choice to make, not the Pakistani government sitting in Karachi. This was made clear about all the princely states to the two Dominions. It was the delicacy of feeling of Mountbatten and of Nehru that made them ask for a plebiscite after the raiders had been driven out. The documents and the correspondence are both very clear in this regard.


Yet there are people sitting in Delhi who think that they have a real shot at this region due to Shia population and they can connect India directly with Afghanistan if ever a plebiscite was held.
 
Sushma Swaraj in her briefing at Lok Sabha, clearly mentions Jammu & Kashmir:

Swaraj was speaking against the backdrop of recent decision to re-start the ‘Comprehensive’ dialogue with Pakistan under which various subjects, including terrorism and Jammu and Kashmir, will be discussed. - See more at: War with Pakistan not an option, talks to end terror: Sushma Swaraj | The Indian Express

Raghvan is just beating about bush.

 

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