NATO: It was Turkey which offered to host radars

[Zulkarneyn]

For some being Turkish may mean being hostile and curse at his right and left, but for me it means respect and honor. I hope you will understand that someday.

 

[Quasar]

AN/TPY-2 Radar

AN/TPY-2 (Army Navy/Transportable Radar Surveillance)
-X band
-Phased Array
-9,2 m2 total antenna area
-Antenna output power; 150 kW
-range 2300 km for 1,00 m2

 

[silko]

Firstly, there isn't any need for calling anyone that.

if they had done some proper research yes, i wouldn't. but coming in and writing that this is to protect Israel from a Iranian strike or europeans use Turkey to protect themself and blah blah then i will call them idiots. they don't contribute to the topic and only spew conspiracy!

 

[Armstrong]

if they had done some proper research yes, i wouldn't. but coming in and writing that this is to protect Israel from a Iranian strike or europeans use Turkey to protect themself and blah blah then i will call them idiots. they don't contribute to the topic and only spew conspiracy!

Fine, I'll excuse myself from the thread and not spew anymore conspiracy theories even if the same is echoed by a plethora of credible analysts out there.

 

[Tshering22]

I think Turks are playing their cards well. Pakistani members in my humble opinion must realize that international relations isn't as easy as jumping overnight into another camp from present. There are a lot of things at stake running into billions of dollars. With Turkey been a NATO member for such a long time, there is a lot at stake to abandon the West and move overnight to China or Russia. I'd say even Russians would smartly understand this.

- Billions worth of infrastructure that is invested into western-designed military facilities for Turkish military
- Billions worth of strategic investment made by West into Turkey and vice versa.
- Political investment made by Turkey in NATO involving in a comprehensive security framework by which to abide.

And a lot more. While SEATO/CENTO was a superficial show of alliance, NATO has been always US' top priority. Neither Russia would be interested to become Soviet Union again in terms of ideology or social setup, nor would China ever replace the USSR. That time was different and so is today's world.

Turkey is better of maintaining good ties equally with east and west while continuing to remain in NATO. Neither China is that big nor is Russia, to have separate camps. Most countries that call themselves as under Russian camp today, are simply because of a nostalgic respect they had for Soviet Union's solidarity behind them during cold war. Other few, have outgrown any camps and are individual players while still hold respect for Moscow, which doesn't come in their way of establishing ties with Washington and NATO nations.

Turkey should continue the good work of remaining the most stable and sensible nation (other than Israel) in the middle east. Their moderate and open thinking is their biggest source of progress and logic compared to rest of the nations in that region.

 

[Deno]

I think Turks are playing their cards well. Pakistani members in my humble opinion must realize that international relations isn't as easy as jumping overnight into another camp from present. There are a lot of things at stake running into billions of dollars. With Turkey been a NATO member for such a long time, there is a lot at stake to abandon the West and move overnight to China or Russia. I'd say even Russians would smartly understand this.

- Billions worth of infrastructure that is invested into western-designed military facilities for Turkish military
- Billions worth of strategic investment made by West into Turkey and vice versa.
- Political investment made by Turkey in NATO involving in a comprehensive security framework by which to abide.

And a lot more. While SEATO/CENTO was a superficial show of alliance, NATO has been always US' top priority. Neither Russia would be interested to become Soviet Union again in terms of ideology or social setup, nor would China ever replace the USSR. That time was different and so is today's world.

Turkey is better of maintaining good ties equally with east and west while continuing to remain in NATO. Neither China is that big nor is Russia, to have separate camps. Most countries that call themselves as under Russian camp today, are simply because of a nostalgic respect they had for Soviet Union's solidarity behind them during cold war. Other few, have outgrown any camps and are individual players while still hold respect for Moscow, which doesn't come in their way of establishing ties with Washington and NATO nations.

Turkey should continue the good work of remaining the most stable and sensible nation (other than Israel) in the middle east. Their moderate and open thinking is their biggest source of progress and logic compared to rest of the nations in that region.

Turkey and Irans relationship was never a friendly one in their entire history. I can easily write 5 obvious attack on Turkish interests and Turkeys sovereignty.

1- They raised the gas price in this freezing winter. Thank God that we had alternative sources for that. Azerbaijan and Fuel Oil from Arab countries.

2- They supporterd PKK via Syria and even their own homeland. In recent years they captured Karayılan by our own intelligence that we gave them and released him for using him against Turkey.... again.... He is second in command.

3- They supported Armenaia against both Turkey and Azerbeijan.

4- They supported Sharia loving biggots in our country. Lucily for Turkey, they are a minority around %7 percent.

5- They still try to block Nabuco pipeline which will lower our dependence of Russia and Iran in natural gas.

While at the same time, Turkey/Turkish people idioticly/naively supported Iran...

1- Turkey stubbornly refused to participate in senctions against Iran.

2- Turkey made nuclear deal with Iran ---Turkey-Brazil-Iran- nuclear swap deal which helped them greatly.

3- Turkey made it clear that, they do not and will not support any military attack on Iran.

4- Turkey vetoed UN resolutions against Iran...



Even after reading these and saying that Turkey should support ''muslim'' country.... I don't know what to tell you... Muslim or not. They betrayed us and made more trouble for us than even Greece....

 

[RayKalm]

AN/TPY-2 Radar

AN/TPY-2 (Army Navy/Transportable Radar Surveillance)
-X band
-Phased Array
-9,2 m2 total antenna area
-Antenna output power; 150 kW
-range 2300 km for 1,00 m2

Does the radar system reach up to Pakistan?

 

[Armstrong]

I think Turks are playing their cards well. Pakistani members in my humble opinion must realize that international relations isn't as easy as jumping overnight into another camp from present. There are a lot of things at stake running into billions of dollars. With Turkey been a NATO member for such a long time, there is a lot at stake to abandon the West and move overnight to China or Russia. I'd say even Russians would smartly understand this.

- Billions worth of infrastructure that is invested into western-designed military facilities for Turkish military
- Billions worth of strategic investment made by West into Turkey and vice versa.
- Political investment made by Turkey in NATO involving in a comprehensive security framework by which to abide.

And a lot more. While SEATO/CENTO was a superficial show of alliance, NATO has been always US' top priority. Neither Russia would be interested to become Soviet Union again in terms of ideology or social setup, nor would China ever replace the USSR. That time was different and so is today's world.

Turkey is better of maintaining good ties equally with east and west while continuing to remain in NATO. Neither China is that big nor is Russia, to have separate camps. Most countries that call themselves as under Russian camp today, are simply because of a nostalgic respect they had for Soviet Union's solidarity behind them during cold war. Other few, have outgrown any camps and are individual players while still hold respect for Moscow, which doesn't come in their way of establishing ties with Washington and NATO nations.

Turkey should continue the good work of remaining the most stable and sensible nation (other than Israel) in the middle east. Their moderate and open thinking is their biggest source of progress and logic compared to rest of the nations in that region.

The Pakistani member is well versed in International Relations but would like to apologize if he failed to elucidate as well as he should have.

Turkey must neither abandon Europe nor leave NATO for doing either would be a less than optimal decision. Turkey is a European country by any definition of the word and because of Mr.Ataturk's modernization and westernization, Turkey has, now, much more in common with France, Italy and Germany (to name a few) than with Egypt, Lebanon or Pakistan - and I mean that in a cultural sense. As such to abandon something you're already deeply entwined with is very improbable. Additionally, the benefits accrued by being part of a security apparatus like NATO is immense and mustn't be relinquished.
At the same time, I was greatly perturbed by the arguments brought forward by many member nations as to why Turkey shouldn't be a part of the EU. I also could not understand why many polls conducted amongst the citizens of many EU member states on whether Turkey should join the EU, were primarily answered in 'No' or 'Don't Know', with only a small percentage (across the board) favoring Turkey's accession to the European Union. I say, that I was perturbed and couldn't understand the reasons, is because I couldn't find a single credible argument as to why it shouldn't join the EU nor could I understand why the people weren't entirely welcoming of Turkey; I did however come across Islamaphobic statements by a minority of the people but generally the arguments gave me the feeling that Turkey is still not thought of as 'European' - which I find absurd. And that, I dunno, made me question whether many of the major players in Europe or many amongst the people are entirely comfortable with Turkey and, as such, looking elsewhere might not be such a bad idea.

In the light of that, I believe that with the fall of Iraq, the inevitable demise of the Syrian regime, the stagnancy in the Arab Spring movement and the ostracization of Iran, a vacuum of sorts is created in the Middle East which gives Turkey the opportunity to further extend her regional influence. Turkey is already a huge trading partner of Iraq and with the rapid rate at which the Turkish Industry is progressing at in all sorts of way, the Muslim World - namely, the Middle-East, which has traditionally imported a lot from the USA and yet hasn't had a very favorable view of the United States, could well look to Turkey for high quality imports. Turkey has predominantly traded with France, Germany and Britain (I think) but the potential for Turkey to tap into the Middle East, is immense and the additional tag of a Muslim majority country already endears us to them. So a greater economic interdependency with the Middle East is what I'm proposing but not necessarily a disconnection with the West.
Additionally, what the regional influence implies is that if the message of a culture idolizing religious pluralism, impartiality, justice, women's emancipation and liberalism, comes from Turkey, it would never be perceived as being intrusive whereas if the same came from the United States it would be viciously rejected even if the message is absolutely correct. Turkey could, as such, play a massive rule by influencing an Arab world without a leader where the Arab Spring doesn't seem to have any unitary agenda - that agenda could well be suggested by the Foreign Office of Turkey and the people who are truly compliant with the aforementioned culture get political and diplomatic backing from the Turkish Foreign Office - if this is played, properly what seems like a rudder less movement of Islamists, Secularists, and all sorts of other 'ists', could turn into a proper ushering in of change. And all of this political investment is made without cutting yourself off from the West. They have a term for that too, I think - Neo-Ottomanism, was it.
Furthermore, whereas I don't expect Turkey to see its self as a Muslim Country, because its not, they've made their choice; but if they were to reassert some linkage with the Muslim Countries and help the West understand more about some of the genuine political grievances of Muslims, we'd be much more amenable to diplomacy instead of confrontation (with respect to people). And why ? Because of Turkey's unique position of being a Muslim majority Western country.

Lastly, about Russia and China. I can't stress enough what Turkey (or any nation) could possibly achieve by being an interlocutor between the two. A Western country with good relations with China and Russia could always bring either party (the other being the US) to the table and remove any misconceptions or bitterness about either. Something like how Pakistan helped China and the US patch up in the 70s or was it the 80s, except more. But for that to happen a degree of economic interdependence must increase and much more people to people interaction must happen, with most of the bitter issues being put on the back burner. Additionally, both China and Russia are taking great strides in coming up with newer technologies and Turkey could potentially look into that even more, by warming up relations even further with either of those two countries. If there are certain technologies or joint-ventures that are off-limits to Turkey, the Chinese and the Russian option could be available. I was reading the other day an article in the TIMES about how even the most American of technologies (the Solar Cell for one) have been assimilated by China to such an extent that its projected that they'd be leading the world in producing newer and much improved solar cells because most of the know how has been transferred because of China's policies of attracting businesses to build offshore establishments - the article extended the same principle to a lot of other mainstream technologies and the projected role that China could play in them in the coming future - perhaps entering into a couple of joint-ventures (perhaps even military) with them could be good. But for that to happen, better relations by dropping Tibet and the Ugyur problem may be a prerequisite.

Consequently even if being part of the missile defense program is not aimed at Russia, its the perception and the threat assessment on the Russian side that counts. And as such, if Turkey can't excuse itself out of being a part of it in the same way it did when it didn't let Turkish soil be used for an invasion on Iraq, then perhaps, matching it up with significant diplomatic work in convincing Russians that they (the Turkish Republic) truly have the best interest of their neighbors at heart would be a good way to go. The same can be said about not talking about the Ugyur issue in case of China.

All in all a much more assertive, neutral and independent foreign policy is needed. Some may call UK's foreign policy as being all the aforementioned things but if you harp on about any and all wars that the US wants to undertake or endorse whatever they say, I'm not sure if you're that independent. Turkey has traditionally looked to the West, its time that a much more diverse foreign policy is adopted when looking to the East is also equally encouraged - Erdogan appears to be on that path.

Just my two cents.

---------- Post added at 11:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:37 PM ----------

Does the radar system reach up to Pakistan?

Doesn't look like it.

 

[RayKalm]

Doesn't look like it.

I truly hope not.

 

[RedBeard]

The Pakistani member is well versed in International Relations but would like to apologize if he failed to elucidate as well as he should have.

Turkey must neither abandon Europe nor leave NATO for doing either would be a less than optimal decision. Turkey is a European country by any definition of the word and because of Mr.Ataturk's modernization and westernization, Turkey has, now, much more in common with France, Italy and Germany (to name a few) than with Egypt, Lebanon or Pakistan - and I mean that in a cultural sense. As such to abandon something you're already deeply entwined with is very improbable. Additionally, the benefits accrued by being part of a security apparatus like NATO is immense and mustn't be relinquished.
At the same time, I was greatly perturbed by the arguments brought forward by many member nations as to why Turkey shouldn't be a part of the EU. I also could not understand why many polls conducted amongst the citizens of many EU member states on whether Turkey should join the EU, were primarily answered in 'No' or 'Don't Know', with only a small percentage (across the board) favoring Turkey's accession to the European Union. I say, that I was perturbed and couldn't understand the reasons, is because I couldn't find a single credible argument as to why it shouldn't join the EU nor could I understand why the people weren't entirely welcoming of Turkey; I did however come across Islamaphobic statements by a minority of the people but generally the arguments gave me the feeling that Turkey is still not thought of as 'European' - which I find absurd. And that, I dunno, made me question whether many of the major players in Europe or many amongst the people are entirely comfortable with Turkey and, as such, looking elsewhere might not be such a bad idea.

In the light of that, I believe that with the fall of Iraq, the inevitable demise of the Syrian regime, the stagnancy in the Arab Spring movement and the ostracization of Iran, a vacuum of sorts is created in the Middle East which gives Turkey the opportunity to further extend her regional influence. Turkey is already a huge trading partner of Iraq and with the rapid rate at which the Turkish Industry is progressing at in all sorts of way, the Muslim World - namely, the Middle-East, which has traditionally imported a lot from the USA and yet hasn't had a very favorable view of the United States, could well look to Turkey for high quality imports. Turkey has predominantly traded with France, Germany and Britain (I think) but the potential for Turkey to tap into the Middle East, is immense and the additional tag of a Muslim majority country already endears us to them. So a greater economic interdependency with the Middle East is what I'm proposing but not necessarily a disconnection with the West.
Additionally, what the regional influence implies is that if the message of a culture idolizing religious pluralism, impartiality, justice, women's emancipation and liberalism, comes from Turkey, it would never be perceived as being intrusive whereas if the same came from the United States it would be viciously rejected even if the message is absolutely correct. Turkey could, as such, play a massive rule by influencing an Arab world without a leader where the Arab Spring doesn't seem to have any unitary agenda - that agenda could well be suggested by the Foreign Office of Turkey and the people who are truly compliant with the aforementioned culture get political and diplomatic backing from the Turkish Foreign Office - if this is played, properly what seems like a rudder less movement of Islamists, Secularists, and all sorts of other 'ists', could turn into a proper ushering in of change. And all of this political investment is made without cutting yourself off from the West. They have a term for that too, I think - Neo-Ottomanism, was it.
Furthermore, whereas I don't expect Turkey to see its self as a Muslim Country, because its not, they've made their choice; but if they were to reassert some linkage with the Muslim Countries and help the West understand more about some of the genuine political grievances of Muslims, we'd be much more amenable to diplomacy instead of confrontation (with respect to people). And why ? Because of Turkey's unique position of being a Muslim majority Western country.

Lastly, about Russia and China. I can't stress enough what Turkey (or any nation) could possibly achieve by being an interlocutor between the two. A Western country with good relations with China and Russia could always bring either party (the other being the US) to the table and remove any misconceptions or bitterness about either. Something like how Pakistan helped China and the US patch up in the 70s or was it the 80s, except more. But for that to happen a degree of economic interdependence must increase and much more people to people interaction must happen, with most of the bitter issues being put on the back burner. Additionally, both China and Russia are taking great strides in coming up with newer technologies and Turkey could potentially look into that even more, by warming up relations even further with either of those two countries. If there are certain technologies or joint-ventures that are off-limits to Turkey, the Chinese and the Russian option could be available. I was reading the other day an article in the TIMES about how even the most American of technologies (the Solar Cell for one) have been assimilated by China to such an extent that its projected that they'd be leading the world in producing newer and much improved solar cells because most of the know how has been transferred because of China's policies of attracting businesses to build offshore establishments - the article extended the same principle to a lot of other mainstream technologies and the projected role that China could play in them in the coming future - perhaps entering into a couple of joint-ventures (perhaps even military) with them could be good. But for that to happen, better relations by dropping Tibet and the Ugyur problem may be a prerequisite.

Consequently even if being part of the missile defense program is not aimed at Russia, its the perception and the threat assessment on the Russian side that counts. And as such, if Turkey can't excuse itself out of being a part of it in the same way it did when it didn't let Turkish soil be used for an invasion on Iraq, then perhaps, matching it up with significant diplomatic work in convincing Russians that they (the Turkish Republic) truly have the best interest of their neighbors at heart would be a good way to go. The same can be said about not talking about the Ugyur issue in case of China.

All in all a much more assertive, neutral and independent foreign policy is needed. Some may call UK's foreign policy as being all the aforementioned things but if you harp on about any and all wars that the US wants to undertake or endorse whatever they say, I'm not sure if you're that independent. Turkey has traditionally looked to the West, its time that a much more diverse foreign policy is adopted when looking to the East is also equally encouraged - Erdogan appears to be on that path.

Just my two cents.

---------- Post added at 11:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:37 PM ----------



Doesn't look like it.

They don´t want Turkiye to join because we have 74 million population, strong economy and strong army.. We would become one of the leading countries in Europe and that scares them. If you consider our past conquests i understand their fear.

 

[UKBengali]

america is by far still the strongest country and the strongest country by far ever their military budget is 700billion chinas is like 80-90 billion so more than 7 times they have like 11 aircraft carriers they are ordering more than 2000 f-35s did you see that figure more than 2000- f35s alone plus f22s etc , they are still very very strong for a 300million population

people get gassed when they hear a few new headlines about china

The "Economist" predicts that China's economy will be larger than the whole West combined by 2025.

 

[RayKalm]

They don´t want Turkiye to join because we have 74 million population, strong economy and strong army.. We would become one of the leading countries in Europe and that scares them. If you consider our past conquests i understand their fear.

There are many country with past conquests. Persia (Iran), Syria, Saudi Arabia, Greek.

 

[RedBeard]

There are many country with past conquests. Persia (Iran), Syria, Saudi Arabia, Greek.

None of these countries has any plans to join E.U,except the Greeks and they are already part of it. Besides no country/people scared Europeans as much as the Turks did, tell me how far did Persians with their conquests managed to conquer European soil and hold it?

Turks came with Ottomans until Vienna.. And even before burned down mighty Rome to the ground with Atilla the Hun.

 

[Armstrong]

They don´t want Turkiye to join because we have 74 million population, strong economy and strong army.. We would become one of the leading countries in Europe and that scares them. If you consider our past conquests i understand their fear.

All the more reason to diversify your foreign policy. Turkey is a modern, democratic Muslim majority country and I still don't think that you guys realize the gold-mine your sitting on. Heck, if Turkey offered courses in English, I would have gone there for my bachelors - meaning, whereas hundred of thousands of youth from the Muslim World go to the States or Britain for higher education, Turkey by virtue of being a developed country and a Muslim friendly country (we won't have to prove that we're not all like Bin Laden) has an enormous potential that can be tapped. And I haven't even started on the things that Pakistan, Egypt etc. can export from you guys.

 

[amalakas]

how does greeks feel by being ruled for 400 years by ottomans?

How should I feel? Empires come and go. It is simply history.

---------- Post added at 09:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:40 PM ----------

For some being Turkish may mean being hostile and curse at his right and left, but for me it means respect and honor. I hope you will understand that someday.

If that means anything, I don't think the average Turk is like that. so don't worry.